416 Burning oil and the road to redemption

-
RAMM said:
I googled it-converts to -31F!! J.Rob
Click to expand...


Holy crap. That will turn your balls blue in a nanosecond. Plus, it will cause trees to fracture and all kinds of weird ****.

You have to have a heated shop to work in that weather. Although most people around here don't hear their home shops.


Damn that's cold.
 
I no longer feel sorry for myself. It's only going to be -14F here Friday night. Wood burning stove in the main shop. I can get a 5'-6" x 14" diameter log in it.
 
Woodie said:
Thats a big Log IQ52!
Click to expand...

Took some time to check out the cam. Its a CamMotion grind 256 @ .050" single pattern, 110 LSA +4 ground in for 106. Knowing small Mopars are hard on timing chaings, I put the crank gear in the +2 position and degreed it. It came in @ 103.75 instead of 104--close enough. I also checked intake timing @ .050" and it was exactly 257 deg and the intake closes @ 53 deg ABDC. Checking phasing with crank gear in the +4 position showed a 102.25 ICL which I don't really care for. Lobe lift measured exactly .364". J.Rob

IMG_20161216_082404.JPG
 
Hey J.Rob can you explain the 102.25 ICL and what it means and why you don't care for this .I'm just trying to understand cams this is still a bit sketchy to me . buy the way great thread .
 
jimjimjimmy said:
Hey J.Rob can you explain the 102.25 ICL and what it means and why you don't care for this .I'm just trying to understand cams this is still a bit sketchy to me . buy the way great thread .
Click to expand...

I just advanced the cam to the +4 position and it checked in @ 102.25 which I think may hurt high RPM power production. J.Rob
 
RAMM said:
A little time with a carbide and sand roll. J.Rob

View attachment 1714998134

View attachment 1714998135
Click to expand...
I gotta tell ya Jesse, I've never had to clearance a Mopar roller rocker after getting the geometry, aka shaft location, correct.

In these pics, a customer had issues and was told by a respected cylinder head guy that his rockers were an old design and didn't have enough clearance so he would need to grind on them. I told him not to grind on anything until he installed the correction kit, and he had a ton of clearance afterward.
IMG_1870(1).JPG
IMG_1869(1).JPG
IMG_1873(1).JPG

I wonder how many people have been hacking on their expensive new rockers when they run into this problem? Far too many, I would guess.

This is one of several 9 second cars that are running corrected geometry with one of my kits. I wish he would have sent after photos, but he didn't. He did just call to order another kit for his sons car though.

If anyone is grinding rockers, especially with less than a 1.650" spring, the geometry is probably not right. As bad as these photos look, he didn't have to touch the rockers with a grinder.

One last thought; valve float will chew up hardened spring shims as well. Your shims look just like the hardened ones on a set of Indy -1s in the shop right now that had valvetrain issues. Might be worth considering.

I'll see if I can locate some photos of these rockers after the correction has been made. I know it's not a true before and after, but at least there is an example to reference.
 
B3RE said:
I gotta tell ya Jesse, I've never had to clearance a Mopar roller rocker after getting the geometry, aka shaft location, correct.

In these pics, a customer had issues and was told by a respected cylinder head guy that his rockers were an old design and didn't have enough clearance so he would need to grind on them. I told him not to grind on anything until he installed the correction kit, and he had a ton of clearance afterward.View attachment 1714999066 View attachment 1714999067 View attachment 1714999068
I wonder how many people have been hacking on their expensive new rockers when they run into this problem? Far too many, I would guess.

This is one of several 9 second cars that are running corrected geometry with one of my kits. I wish he would have sent after photos, but he didn't. He did just call to order another kit for his sons car though.

If anyone is grinding rockers, especially with less than a 1.650" spring, the geometry is probably not right. As bad as these photos look, he didn't have to touch the rockers with a grinder.

One last thought; valve float will chew up hardened spring shims as well. Your shims look just like the hardened ones on a set of Indy -1s in the shop right now that had valvetrain issues. Might be worth considering.

I'll see if I can locate some photos of these rockers after the correction has been made. I know it's not a true before and after, but at least there is an example to reference.
Click to expand...



I think it would be safe to bet that 75% of modified sbm's geometry is less than sufficient . it is something very important but not discussed in depth enough . someone should do a thread on installing a B3RE kit on a messed up geometry engine to make it right .I find this very interesting and I have read all of B3RE info on his site it is a very interesting read for sure that I need to read 4 or 5 more times to fully understand . I have seen many nice rockers over the years that were ground up or ruined in my opinion and it's from just not understanding what's going on .
 
I'll betcha that some of the rocker to spring interference comes form the idea that the roller has to be exactly centered over the valve stem when viewed as in B3RE's 1st pix. It doesn't; the design of the roller system takes a care of any small offsets. Springs don't always stand up perfectly straight, nor set perfectly centered under the retainer, so some side to side offset may be necessary.
 
B3RE said:
One last thought; valve float will chew up hardened spring shims as well. Your shims look just like the hardened ones on a set of Indy -1s in the shop right now that had valvetrain issues. Might be worth considering.

QUOTE]

This isn't valve float and none of the valves have the tell tale star pattern on the tip. This is most definitely a standard steel shim that is not hardened VA-303 and the dampener has started to slice them up. J.Rob
Click to expand...
 
jimjimjimmy said:
I think it would be safe to bet that 75% of modified sbm's geometry is less than sufficient . it is something very important but not discussed in depth enough . someone should do a thread on installing a B3RE kit on a messed up geometry engine to make it right .I find this very interesting and I have read all of B3RE info on his site it is a very interesting read for sure that I need to read 4 or 5 more times to fully understand . I have seen many nice rockers over the years that were ground up or ruined in my opinion and it's from just not understanding what's going on .
Click to expand...


I'd take your bet because I think 75% is LOW. It is near 100% of the time wrong when any of the normal things happen...like more lift...roller tip...taller installed height...or any combination of the aforementioned.

Will they run? Sure. Are they right? Nope. I spent years installing blocks on heads because that was all there was. And the customers bitched because all the Chevy guys and hillbilly MoPar guys said they never had to do blocks. But my **** didn't break rockers, didn't need the lash constantly run and th valve springs and guides lived longer. The B3 system is so much simpler it's practically unscrewuppable if you take the correct measurements.


THANK YOU MIKE FOR MAKING IT EASY.
 
Sorry Jesse, I wasn't trying to say your shims were hardened. I was just comparing how your shims looked, to the hardened ones I have here. The dampers can really tear them up, especially if there isn't any spring prep. And, any spring bounce can make it worse.
 
Looks like more than just the rings there. It should be much improved just based on the stupid mistakes on it you're correcting.
 
yellow rose said:
I'd take your bet because I think 75% is LOW. It is near 100% of the time wrong when any of the normal things happen...like more lift...roller tip...taller installed height...or any combination of the aforementioned.

Will they run? Sure. Are they right? Nope. I spent years installing blocks on heads because that was all there was. And the customers bitched because all the Chevy guys and hillbilly MoPar guys said they never had to do blocks. But my **** didn't break rockers, didn't need the lash constantly run and th valve springs and guides lived longer. The B3 system is so much simpler it's practically unscrewuppable if you take the correct measurements.


THANK YOU MIKE FOR MAKING IT EASY.
Click to expand...
Here is a customer pic of his Harland Sharp rockers installed. It's enough to make you want to cry. Isn't it beautiful?
DSC00113.JPG
Uhhh......no it's not! It might be pretty when the valve is on the seat, but when it gets to fill lift, it's as ugly as Cinderella's step sisters.
DSC00116.JPG
Funny how manufacturers will tell you the geometry is good based on the first pic, and ignore what happens when the engine is actually running.

Jesse, I have to agree with yellow rose and IQ52 that the shafts need to be relocated. What I know to be true is that the stands are NEVER in the right place for a roller rocker. It is not possible with heads currently on the market. If the roller isn't in exactly the same spot at full lift as it was on the seat, it needs some attention.
 
Those pictures are worth ten thousand dollars worth of broken rockers.

Why MoPar guys put up with junk like this is beyond my ability to comprehend.


I basically begged a guy in another forum here on FABO to get ahold of you. But he was assured but others his **** was bolt on. It just kills me to see this happen.
 
yellow rose said:
Those pictures are worth ten thousand dollars worth of broken rockers.

Why MoPar guys put up with junk like this is beyond my ability to comprehend.


I basically begged a guy in another forum here on FABO to get ahold of you. But he was assured but others his **** was bolt on. It just kills me to see this happen.
Click to expand...

There were two threads going on at the same time with the same basic topic, different OPs. One guy called me, and the other guy didn't. One I know is right, the other, well, hopefully he gets away with it. I don't take any pleasure in seeing guys bust their stuff up.
 
B3RE said:
There were two threads going on at the same time with the same basic topic, different OPs. One guy called me, and the other guy didn't. One I know is right, the other, well, hopefully he gets away with it. I don't take any pleasure in seeing guys bust their stuff up.
Click to expand...


Well it makes me feel better that at least one guy called you. I hate to see guys stepping over donuts to pick up dog poop.
 
yellow rose said:
Well it makes me feel better that at least one guy called you. I hate to see guys stepping over donuts to pick up dog poop.
Click to expand...
I just spoke with him again yesterday, and he says he's very happy with the rockers and geometry kit.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top