440 power gains/ aluminum head advantages?
- Thread starter NoahSewal
- Start date
-
NoahSewal
Well-Known Member
got around to messing with the dart some more. been busy working on my firebird. got the pans welded in and seam sealed! i've ran into a problem tho on my dart. did they use a different length pushrod for mechanical lifters vs hydraulic on 440s? put the solid lifter in and it's way off the pushrod won't even seat in the lifter with the rocker rail all the way down. the lifter says it's for mopar and i believe it's stock lifter seat height. 1.630" seat height. do you think i could use an adjustable pushrod? max it out when it's on the lowest spot on the lobe and just make sure it doesn't adjust when i'm rotating engine?
Last edited:
MomsDuster
Well-Known Member
I could be wrong, but couldn’t you just measure lift from the lifter itself when degreeing the cam?
Pretty good video here.
Pretty good video here.
PRH
Well-Known Member
Just degree the cam off the pushrod.
NoahSewal
Well-Known Member
i have ball end pushrods. how do i measure lift from pushrod without rockers on it? i'm wondering if i could just put the dial indicator on the top of the lifter and rotate the engine... hm. i took an old hydraulic lifter i had and tac welded the seat to the lifter and installed it but something has to be off because the rocker on that lobe has no play even at the very bottom of the cam lobe. can't move it side to side at all. like it's holding the valve open a little all the way around the lobe. there is no weld or splatter at all in the top of the lifter where the pushrod sits so i'm not sure how it could be like that. i might just try to tac weld another a try it to see if it works normal. all this fuss i might also just break down and buy a valve spring compressor for head on engine and change it out to the lightweight spring that came in my degree kit.
Put it on lifter down in the valley multiply by 1-1/2 there your lift. Or use a cupped pushrod, dowel, brake line, copper tubing, laying against the rocker shaft (keep it straight up and down) all measurement can be taken off the lifter. On what you made you’re getting into preload of lifter
Assuming a rocker will produce the lift from the stated ratio will lead to errors. Numerous factors such as prod length will affect the final ratio: ie lobe lift multiplied by the rocker ratio equals the valve lift. The ratio changes during the sweep of the rocker. Below are some rockers D. Vizard tested & as you can see the ratios are all over the place.
If you want accurate results, measure off the lifter....
If you want accurate results, measure off the lifter....
If I want to know the lift for that engine and rocker I’ll measure off retainer, but like you said all the rest measure off the lifter (use solid lifter)
PRH
Well-Known Member
get a piece of round stock a couple inches long.
Drill a hole in one end about 3/4” deep just big enough to slide over the pushrod.
On the other end just go in deep enough to make a divot for the indicator point to sit in.
That will give a good measuring place for the indicator.
Drill a hole in one end about 3/4” deep just big enough to slide over the pushrod.
On the other end just go in deep enough to make a divot for the indicator point to sit in.
That will give a good measuring place for the indicator.
PRH
Well-Known Member
Marathon cam degreeing session?
NoahSewal
Well-Known Member
lol basically. been pretty hot out and i've been trying to figure out how i'll degree it with my setup. i finally understood and got a consistent reading while degreeing. my intake lobe centerline is 110 degrees. recommend intake centerline for my cam is 105. is there a huge loss of power here being 5 degrees off? i'm not sure how much is too much but from what i've read .5 degrees tolerance is ideal.
NoahSewal
Well-Known Member
finally got consistent reading from intake centerline. i'm at 110 degrees and isky recommends 105. how much of a power loss am i having being 5 degrees off?
Five degrees 'off'. Off which way, advanced or retarded? I am always amazed at the time spent tinkering to get the cam exactly at some amount of adv or ret......for a cam that has not been used or tested & therefore no info where the best position [ position: whether it should be advanced or retarded & by how much ] would be to install it.
While a few degrees of advance is often used, the FACT is that if you want to find the optimum position, you have to put the engine on a dyno....& test at each position.
Generally [ with lots of exceptions ], advancing the cam can pick up a few hp at the low end....& retarding the cam will do the opposite; & may give a few more HP at the top end, especially if the cam was a bit small.
While a few degrees of advance is often used, the FACT is that if you want to find the optimum position, you have to put the engine on a dyno....& test at each position.
Generally [ with lots of exceptions ], advancing the cam can pick up a few hp at the low end....& retarding the cam will do the opposite; & may give a few more HP at the top end, especially if the cam was a bit small.
PRH
Well-Known Member
The cam being 5* retarded isn’t doing your combo any favors, but it’s not like that alone would explain the huge power loss you’re seeing.
Correct it to 104-105 c/l, button it back up and see what it’s like.
Correct it to 104-105 c/l, button it back up and see what it’s like.
Dragonbat13
Well-Known Member
I've taken a torch, heated the ends of the slots, and hammered them to 3/8 of an inch with a bolt laying on its side at the end of the slot. Little bit of grinding here and there. I believe I got it to around 32 all in and let it fall around 16 at idle. I doubt 9:1 would give issues.
It's in a Mopar action article called "snap, crackle, and pop".
I was about 23 years old back in the late 90's. Thats when I learned how important it was. I swear the power was up by 20 percent.
Does four seconds flat still sell that book and those plates in a combo? That would help him a lot.
It's in a Mopar action article called "snap, crackle, and pop".
I was about 23 years old back in the late 90's. Thats when I learned how important it was. I swear the power was up by 20 percent.
Does four seconds flat still sell that book and those plates in a combo? That would help him a lot.
5 degrees retarded can be a big deal. What is the static compression ratio? If it's under 9.5, it probably wouldn't hurt a thing to get it down around 102 intake center line. I wouldn't even be afraid of 100.
ValiantS
Well-Known Member
I'm not speaking specifically to any of your questions but it'll speak to them all. Very unusual but wonderful to see someone young whom is pretty deeply engaged in building a hotrod. Pull and sell the dinosaur driveline and put a junkyard Eagle gen3 in it and watch your efforts pay off in larger dividends. You'll go a lot faster for less money and it'll be more reliable. People who know me wouldn't believe I'm recommending this but, in the context of everything I've read here, it's sound advice.
Carnut68
Well-Known Member
While you're still young. Eventually there will be millions of the new Hemi's sitting in scrap yards. Vehicles are just throw a ways now.
That's very true and a good point. Almost makes me wanna look into a new Hemi swap. Almost. But not quite.
NoahSewal
Well-Known Member
got it all back together yesterday at 105.5 icl. it definitely has better cold starts and a night and day difference with throttle response. i haven't got coolant in it yet so i haven't taken it down the road but i hope ill feel a little difference. but also the new 440 source chain was much tighter. almost no slack compared to the new comp chain and gears with 1/2 in deflection. even if the degreeing didn't make a difference it was worth it to me for the peace of mind and the tighter chain!! im also installing a fbo ignition box and flamethrower coil after i take it for a drive. i've been wanting an upgrade from the cheap auto parts store ignition box and coil replacement. hoping to get it to the track within the month to see how it does. thank you for all the help and advice and i'll be excited to share with you my time slips to see a difference
NoahSewal
Well-Known Member
with the calculator on summit i'm right at 9.5 with everything. i installed it at 105.5icl. i hope im not missing out on anything by not having it a little lower. initially at 0 on the crank sprocket i was at 102.5. but i brought it up to get it as close to the 105 as possible. but at some point i want to go to aluminum heads and swap the cam to a bigger lift roller. i got it all back together though and cold starts and throttle response seem to be much better. and it seems my timing jumping around was in the timing chain slack because it's gone now with the new 440 source chain. i plan to get it out tomorrow and see how it drives! i also got some new 275s for the back so i dont have to drive around on slicks on the street anymore ha.
NoahSewal
Well-Known Member
that's initially what i wanted to do when my 318 gave up but this is my first real in depth build outside of just re ringing engines and replacing parts with factory equipment so i was weary with a new gen swap. but i've got an 88s10 and a 5.3ls3 that's on the chopping block at some point after my 68 torino gt is done and i do something with my 66 d100. there's also this 73 challenger that brad harm in viborg SD has sitting with his hundereds of other mopars that i've really been eyeing. hoping to grab that up before he sells it because i'd love to restore an E body. but there's only so much time in each day. not sure if posting F.O.R.Ds is allowed on this forum ha but i'll include a picture of what my torino looked like the day i took it home after i got done painting it. it was pretty rusty but not a spot of rust left after i put 1/4s, torque boxes, wheel houses, trunk extensions, rocker panels, and lots of other little fab pieces where it needed it.
NoahSewal
Well-Known Member
i'm ordering this kit tonight as i'm installing the fbo ignition box and flamethrower coil i got tomorrow. this engine really didn't like any sort of advance at all but im hoping i can get some satisfaction out of the limiter plate. right now ive got a t bar ive just welded in the slots to lock it in
Let me put that cam in for you. It’s going in 4 degrees advanced.
NoahSewal
Well-Known Member
you'd install it at 101 if the recommended intake centerline is 105? don't make me regret putting it at 105 when the first time i put in the new chain i had it at 102 haha
-
