67Dart273
Well-Known Member
"Lopey idle, good midrange to strong top-end power, 3,000-6,500 RPM powerband.Stall converter recommended. Compression: 10:1 minimum. With 3-bolt gear attachment"
You can read a LOT into that description.
440 what am I missing here?
- Thread starter Cool Hand
- Start date
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"Lopey idle, good midrange to strong top-end power, 3,000-6,500 RPM powerband.Stall converter recommended. Compression: 10:1 minimum. With 3-bolt gear attachment"
You can read a LOT into that description.
Cool Hand
Well-Known Member
Cool Hand
Well-Known Member
Cool Hand
Well-Known Member
will check the compression and timing once again but I believe it is the torque convertor that is the culprit.gonna try a 3500. Really just wanted to know if I was missing something other than the usual suspects. Thanks guys
PRH
Well-Known Member
A few thoughts.......
Needs WAY more stall than anything rated at 2000.
A tight 9.5” would be more like it(3700-4000).
Initial timing is way low for a cam like that.
Should be up around 20-24.
Not the answer you’re looking for...... but........in reality....... about 10-12* less cam duration on a 112lsa would work way better........ if you care how it drives more than you care about “the big number”.
The shorter cam would be better with a milder converter, along with it being easier for the EFI to deal with.
Love the truck though
Needs WAY more stall than anything rated at 2000.
A tight 9.5” would be more like it(3700-4000).
Initial timing is way low for a cam like that.
Should be up around 20-24.
Not the answer you’re looking for...... but........in reality....... about 10-12* less cam duration on a 112lsa would work way better........ if you care how it drives more than you care about “the big number”.
The shorter cam would be better with a milder converter, along with it being easier for the EFI to deal with.
Love the truck though
PRH
Well-Known Member
Headers??
The other thing is, the TF intake, while a very nice piece for upper rpm use....... isn’t the best choice for combos that are looking for strong lower end and mid-range power.
What the OP does now really depends on how he intends on using it. I am inclined to believe this is a lot more cruiser and driver than a street and strip deal. While a converter tuned to the vehicle would be optimum regardless of the performance level, I think maybe a cam and intake that more closely matches the existing converter would probably suit the intended usage of the vehicle better than to have it really not reaching potential until a set of 4.10 or deeper gears are installed. But everything else concerning tuning needs to be done, too. But that's completely up to the OP. That truck is so nice, I would park it in my living room with mirrors under it so I could just sit and look at it...
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I have seen many with your same thought . Believe me Put a 3500 converter in and your eye will open wide . That would be the lowest stall. Myself I would put a 4500 9" tight. Then hang the hell on.
Muscle cars came from the factory with 3500 converters 340's stalled at 2800-3000 form the factory same converter behind a 440 3000-3300 I played with factory converters for many years.
Cool Hand
Well-Known Member
Truck was built for the sema show in 2018. We had it on the track with optima,but it only had 15miles on it then. I have been slowly working the bugs out of it since, between customer builds. Want it to be a monster when needed but still have the gearing to hit the highway at a decent rpm.
Cool Hand
Well-Known Member
The truck is laid out easy enough that a convertor won't be that big of a job. Its happening. Thanks for the reply
Cool Hand
Well-Known Member
Truck was built as a sponsor vehicle. Summit is a huge supporter of our shop,and trickflow,or edelbrock were the choices for the topend package. We are car builders not engine builders so allot of the specs (even though I try) are greek to me. The fittech system has cam settings but are very generic. Mild, streetstrip, wild. When first setting it up it seemed to run best on the street strip setting but the more I read the wild setting should be best according to their math for vacuum and what notA few thoughts.......
Needs WAY more stall than anything rated at 2000.
A tight 9.5” would be more like it(3700-4000).
Initial timing is way low for a cam like that.
Should be up around 20-24.
Not the answer you’re looking for...... but........in reality....... about 10-12* less cam duration on a 112lsa would work way better........ if you care how it drives more than you care about “the big number”.
The shorter cam would be better with a milder converter, along with it being easier for the EFI to deal with.
Love the truck though
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Bear in mind that "generally" with EFI there are 3 types or modes of operation. (1) MAF or Mass Air Flow is what Ford popularly used. (2)..Next is "Speed Density" which is what all the Mopar stockers use, and systems like Holley, FItech and Megasquirt and others use, this uses a vacuum sensor, AKA MAP or Manifold Absolute Pressure, along with temp, throttle, RPM. (3).. Last is called "Alpha N" Alpha N is considered to be the fallback for wild cam engines, and basically uses a throttle sensor, engine RPM, and likely a temp sensor
Some systems, my understanding is that EG Holley HP/ Dominator, etc can operate Alpha N at low speed where the wild cam is hardest to manage with Speed Density, then switch from Alpha to Speed Density at higher RPM.
Maybe you can gain some ground there
Some systems, my understanding is that EG Holley HP/ Dominator, etc can operate Alpha N at low speed where the wild cam is hardest to manage with Speed Density, then switch from Alpha to Speed Density at higher RPM.
Maybe you can gain some ground there
TT5.9mag
Two atmospheres are better than one
12 is nowhere near enough initial to get that cam to idle cleanly. And I’m not familiar with that head but I’d bet a dollar the chamber in any trick flow is more efficient than the stock head it replaces, meaning it won’t want the total at 36. Also all in at 2500 with a lowish stall converter won’t make it rip your arms off. My WAG is 18-22 initial and all in around 31-34 with maybe a two spring curve. One medium and one heavy. But it is a WAG until you post some compression numbers.
SLOPAR72
Well-Known Member
Chassis dyno. That will tell you where the power is being made at. I suspect you won't like what you see if the Dyno is on the up and up. However this is hotrodding and sometimes it takes a couple of stabs to get it right. That tight LSA should make for a nice idle anyways lol.....
Lots of time spent on the truck. Nice...
JW
I would do what TTI5.9mag says with the timing before warming it up for the compression test. Or lock the distributor rotor out and set it at 32 degrees static ignition lead and use a start retard. Or mark it and leave it on the edge of loose so it could be turned back to crank it without bucking against the starter. Take it out and see how much improvement you have. It should certainly help some.
But, there are worse issues at play here.
Cam specs from TFS.
https://static.trickflow.com/global/images/chartsguides/t/tfs-61602003_sn.pdf
The intake closing event at 72 degrees ABDC is the real killer here. Advancing the cam 4 degrees would help some, but the answer is it probably needs more compression. More converter is a given, and probably more gear is a certainty, or swap to less (or a cam with an earlier intake closing event, not necessarily smaller) camshaft. And I would would probably change over to an Edelbrock performer RPM with an HVH 2 inch super sucker carb spacer. It may not look as racy, but I promise it would add a significant amount of low end torque without losing anything on top right now. If summit is helping out on it, this converter would also help, although PTC or Precision of New Hampton may come in cheaper for a more efficient custom built converter.
FTI Performance SR Series Torque Converters SRC80828
If you wonder who makes this rebranded cam for TFS, and what they recommend on stall (and they say gears... yeah it has to have rear axle gears to go anywhere, but what ratio range would be helpful!
), here it is.
Hydraulic Roller Camshaft; 1959 - 1980 Chrysler 383-440 2800 to 6600 Howards Cams 723235-08 | Howards Cams
But, there are worse issues at play here.
Cam specs from TFS.
https://static.trickflow.com/global/images/chartsguides/t/tfs-61602003_sn.pdf
The intake closing event at 72 degrees ABDC is the real killer here. Advancing the cam 4 degrees would help some, but the answer is it probably needs more compression. More converter is a given, and probably more gear is a certainty, or swap to less (or a cam with an earlier intake closing event, not necessarily smaller) camshaft. And I would would probably change over to an Edelbrock performer RPM with an HVH 2 inch super sucker carb spacer. It may not look as racy, but I promise it would add a significant amount of low end torque without losing anything on top right now. If summit is helping out on it, this converter would also help, although PTC or Precision of New Hampton may come in cheaper for a more efficient custom built converter.
FTI Performance SR Series Torque Converters SRC80828
If you wonder who makes this rebranded cam for TFS, and what they recommend on stall (and they say gears... yeah it has to have rear axle gears to go anywhere, but what ratio range would be helpful!
), here it is.Hydraulic Roller Camshaft; 1959 - 1980 Chrysler 383-440 2800 to 6600 Howards Cams 723235-08 | Howards Cams
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PRH
Well-Known Member
Still no answer on if it has headers or not.
Even something like “shorty” headers wouldn’t be doing that combo any good.
As you’re experiencing....... the current combo falls short of that goal.
It’s likely going to require a different approach to the basic configuration to get there.
Everyone’s perspective is different, but I don’t see you ending up with the “monster” part, if you get the driveability aspect really dialed in, with it remaining a stock stroke combo.
On the other hand, you can get it more monster-like if you’re willing to lose some street worthiness.
How to get both?
Well....... that’s where the stroker attributes kick in.
Even something like “shorty” headers wouldn’t be doing that combo any good.
As you’re experiencing....... the current combo falls short of that goal.
It’s likely going to require a different approach to the basic configuration to get there.
Everyone’s perspective is different, but I don’t see you ending up with the “monster” part, if you get the driveability aspect really dialed in, with it remaining a stock stroke combo.
On the other hand, you can get it more monster-like if you’re willing to lose some street worthiness.
How to get both?
Well....... that’s where the stroker attributes kick in.
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Okay, that basically explains the issue. You have some mismatched parts so the question is which way do you want to go to fix the issue. If it was my truck I'd toss the FiTech and replace it with a Holley Sniper setup including full timing control. I'd pull that cam out and put something 10 or 15 degrees smaller in there. Those two changes would give you a really nice running truck with plenty of torque.
Leaving that cam in there with the FiTech and adding a high stall converter is going to point you in a direction that you might not like. Just depends if you want a nice truck that you can cruise to a show in, or if you want something kind of rowdy for stop light to stop light action.
Can't go wrong with that advice, AndyF has already ran all this stuff on the dyno and on the street for the rest of us. Do what he says and be happy. I have to agree with PRH on the stroker deal. It's unfortunate that you you didn't come here beforehand for advice. For about the same outlay as the new crank and pistons you could have gotten a 4.15 inch or longer stoke along with pistons to match. Nothing like an extra 56 cubic inches or more with longer rods and lighter pistons to bring out the best in a 440. The extra cubes would also tune down the cam that came with the top end kit.
Yes, that cam works really nice in a 500 inch short block. In a 500 inch engine it makes 600/600 and runs fairly smooth at idle with decent street manners. It is just too aggressive for a street geared, stock converter 440.
If you want to take a baby step I'd start by getting rid of the FiTech and installing a Holley Sniper with a Hyperspark distributor. The Sniper has full tuning capability and with the Hyperspark distributor you'll be able to dial in a lot of advance at idle. The extra timing will solve a lot of your tuning problems but the cam will still be a bit too big for the converter. However, once you got it fully tuned with the Sniper you might find that it runs good enough. At that point you could decide if you want to change the cam or the converter or both.
If you want to take a baby step I'd start by getting rid of the FiTech and installing a Holley Sniper with a Hyperspark distributor. The Sniper has full tuning capability and with the Hyperspark distributor you'll be able to dial in a lot of advance at idle. The extra timing will solve a lot of your tuning problems but the cam will still be a bit too big for the converter. However, once you got it fully tuned with the Sniper you might find that it runs good enough. At that point you could decide if you want to change the cam or the converter or both.
Cool Hand
Well-Known Member
When it comes down to it fun ,and rowdy would be preferred. If I wanna cruise on the highway I have a 74 duster project that will be done soon,and my 55 dodge truck is set up perfect for playing,and cruising. So here it is. The truck was a sponsor vehicle but now that it has done the show curcuit it is on us to do with it what we may. So that said we don't want to tear it down and rebuild it. It does drive,and cruise quite well for where we live. Most of its drive time is back ,and forth to work in town.,and to alot of local shows and tracks usually 50 miles away max. Just really want it to be more responsive when I hit the throttle. Create some adrenaline. It sounds like a higher stall convertor will do that. Is that correct?
PRH
Well-Known Member
By your description, sounds like a converter swap would be the first logical step.
I don’t know what kind of tuning capacity the FiTech has, but as Andy mentioned, something like the Sniper set up with the EFI controlling the timing would really help with the response.
Whether or not that same type of situation is available with the FiTech or not...... I don’t know.
Try the converter first...... and if that doesn’t get you all the way there, look into having more control of the engine tuning.
I don’t know what kind of tuning capacity the FiTech has, but as Andy mentioned, something like the Sniper set up with the EFI controlling the timing would really help with the response.
Whether or not that same type of situation is available with the FiTech or not...... I don’t know.
Try the converter first...... and if that doesn’t get you all the way there, look into having more control of the engine tuning.
Just curious, what ignition did you say your running on it? And what headers again? If your wanting to try a converter, I would recommend calling Precision of new Hampton or PTC, Ultimate, Precision, Pro Torque, etc. and get one custom made. It will help, but I would optimize timing first, just to see. The converter will be a band aid for the cam and cylinder pressure but at least it will let getup into the power band and on the pipe quicker.
Cool Hand
Well-Known Member
Why would trickflow design this topend kit if the lsa was so horrible,and caused compression issues that makes no sense. I will check the timing next time I get the truck out I could be wrong going off of last memory of checking it. As far as headers go I have manifolds on it. Only thing that would fit. Distributor,and coil are E3 parts basically a rebranded blaster type
famous bob
mopar misfit
That isn`t even noticable most of the time on ''bigger thsan 400'' engines
Before this dam att/computer started jumping around , I think I caught that u were running stock exhaust manioflds , that is big part of ur problem , with the rest of ur set up=wrong combination !!
Before this dam att/computer started jumping around , I think I caught that u were running stock exhaust manioflds , that is big part of ur problem , with the rest of ur set up=wrong combination !!
I agree with PRH. You need more converter. I have used Frank Lupo for most of my life. On my 416 Barracuda he recommended a tight 4200 9 1/2” and as usual he was spot on.
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