65 Barracuda daily driver

[JDMopar]

If the previous owner of the engine had them assembled with all the rights on the passenger side and all the lefts on the drivers side, , they did it wrong. The L & R refers to which way the rocker points on the shaft, depending on which way it needs to point in order to land on the valve tip. You should have 4 lefts and 4 rights on each shaft. They just need to point so the rocker tip centers over the valve tip. I'm pretty sure that's what you meant above when you asked about LT RT LT RT LT RT. The notches always go down and to YOUR left when you bolt them to the motor on either side. I've heard how to point them described all kinds of ways, like left front, right rear, etc. Looks like they are oiling ok. I have some out in the garage that are all gooey and greasy that I can take a pic of if it might help.

 

[65barracudaLA]

So, off with the heads and new valves and rockers? I'm not super opposed to do that, but if the problem still persists, I'd be super frustrated.

I have these '67 273 closed chamber heads (920) that will need some work and everything new, but I think they would be great on this engine.

 

[JDMopar]

I'll look at the rockers I mentioned, and if they look decent other than being dirty....I'll give em to you if you want to try them and see if the tick goes away. That will be a cheap way to see if the rockers are the problem. As well as you do keeping stuff clean and dirt/debris contained when you're working on your motor, you may be able to smooth those valve tips up a bit right where they are and not take it apart. Check your rocker shafts and see what the bottom sides of them look like. As long as they don't have grooves worn in them, they should be ok. I'll check the rockers tomorrow and see how they look.

 

[junkyardhero]

So, off with the heads and new valves and rockers? I'm not super opposed to do that, but if the problem still persists, I'd be super frustrated.

I have these '67 273 closed chamber heads (920) that will need some work and everything new, but I think they would be great on this engine.

i mean.... yeah?

at least the rockers, for sure. the valves might be able to be cleaned up insitu but i'd for sure be yanking them rockers and giving them the hairy eyeball and adiosing anything suspect.

if it's not manageable to clean up the valve tips, then i think it'd be reasonable to look at new heads if that's the way you're leaning. but for me, i like to solve one problem before introducing another variable into the mix.

 

[JDMopar]

I checked the rockers I have and they aren't much, if any better than the ones you have.

 

[65barracudaLA]

i mean.... yeah?

at least the rockers, for sure. the valves might be able to be cleaned up insitu but i'd for sure be yanking them rockers and giving them the hairy eyeball and adiosing anything suspect.

if it's not manageable to clean up the valve tips, then i think it'd be reasonable to look at new heads if that's the way you're leaning. but for me, i like to solve one problem before introducing another variable into the mix.

So I think the rockers are in the right place, they are just a mix of different manufacturers. As far as I can tell the rockers have some wear - I just can't tell if that's enough to cause the tick?! And how do you clean up the tips of the valves? 800 sandpaper and taping everything off, so no metal gets into the engine?

 

[65barracudaLA]

I will also double check if the bad lifters coincide with the worn rockers.

 

[JDMopar]

Yeah, you'd have to tape it up to file the tips with a fine file. I don't think sandpaper would do it. Go to Ace Hardware and get a fairly smooth 3 corner file. If you only have a few to smooth up, it won't take a lot of taping and stuff. If you have a shop vac, just cut it on and keep the hose close to where you're filing to help keep the dust out of the motor. Packing rags or paper towels below where you're working should be enough. Hopefully, you scored the free rockers from the dude giving the 318 away.

 

[Richard Sweet]

In post #774, it looks like the rocker arms are touching each other. I'd think that they shouldn't touch. Could that be a potential problem?

 

[65barracudaLA]

Yeah, you'd have to tape it up to file the tips with a fine file. I don't think sandpaper would do it. Go to Ace Hardware and get a fairly smooth 3 corner file. If you only have a few to smooth up, it won't take a lot of taping and stuff. If you have a shop vac, just cut it on and keep the hose close to where you're filing to help keep the dust out of the motor. Packing rags or paper towels below where you're working should be enough. Hopefully, you scored the free rockers from the dude giving the 318 away.

Yes, I went and got the rockers! Thank you for the tip! The shafts are nice and clean. Interestingly all of the rockers have different markings -at least the ones in the top row come in pairs (same number LT/RT). I will clean them all up and take the best ones of both sets to make one nice and complete set.

 

[65barracudaLA]

So I cleaned and inspected the old and the "new" rocker arms and shafts. The old shaft had some heavy wear around the oil holes:

A lot of the old rockers had this pointy raised spot on the surface that contacts the shaft:

I wonder if that caused the damage by the oil holes, but a few of the "new" rockers have a similar spot, but not as tall. I looked online at new rockers and they don't have it?!

Anyhow, the part that contacts the valve appears to have been refinished on the "new" rockers and a few are not perfectly smooth, but it's not that bad and I will try to smooth that out too.

 

[65barracudaLA]

One side of valves smoothed. Tried files, but in the end 150 grit sandpaper worked much better. Cleaned it up with 600 grit.

Also smoothed the new rockers (left before, right after):

I won't have a lot of time tomorrow, but I hope I can get the other side done and install the rockers. Got brand new Grade 8 5/16-18x2 bolts while we're at it... I would have gotten Grade 5, but they were out of those. Noticed the old bolts measured something like 1-13/16", so I don't know if they are usually 1-3/4" and got stretched a bit by over torquing? Apparently the factory manuals incorrectly say to torque to 30 ft lbs, but 17 ft lbs seems to be the right number.

 

[JDMopar]

Dang....those look great! You did a good job.

 

[mygasser]

that's a great job you did masking around those valve tips
neil.

 

[65barracudaLA]

Sooooooooooooo...

Long story short: I took off the intake AGAIN... Here's why:

I finished cleaning up the valve tips, put it all back together and fired her up. Same, if not worse clacking. Oil pressure took longer than before to build up.

At some point I had not been super confident on the oil level, so I when I drained the oil and changed the filter, I ignored the dipstick and filled the car with 5 quarts of oil, which is the supposed capacity of a 318 with a stock pan. I started the engine, let it sit over night, then marked the stick where that level was, which was about another quart.

When I started the engine now with the new rockers, I had drained about a quart out of it again thinking I was wrong and possibly there was too much oil in the engine. Since the oil pressure at startup was worse again, it's safe to say that the dipstick is the wrong one. So I really need to find a correct dipstick as the method described above is likely not accurate.

It's also safe to say then that I drove the car without enough oil in it, which could have caused the bad lifters.

Anyways, I also discovered that the was a coolant leak at the intake, so I didn't hesitate to take off the intake.

I inspected each of the lifters for wear on the bottom, but it seems like they're all spinning and haven't eaten into the cam. I'm no expert, though.

However, I found one collapsed lifter and it was where the loudest clacking was coming from.

So, as devastated and frustrated I am, this is what happened with this engine: Incorrect dipstick, so engine was run with too little oil. Lifters went bad. I replaced the lifters, but at least one of them was bad, collapsed or never pumped up.

So if I replace that lifter and get a correct dipstick & tube, I might have a chance at an engine without problems.

Here is a video of the cam. It doesn't appear to be hurt?!

 

[junkyardhero]

run low on oil because of the bad dipstick has me concerned for the bearings...

but in for a penny, in for a pound. throw a new lifter at it and snap the intake back on and ship it. run it till it pukes, or, ya know, doesn't.

just, like build a spare motor in the mean time...

 

[65barracudaLA]

So I measured my dipstick and compared it to some correct dimensions I found here on FABO. I'm a visual person and I use CAD for work on a daily basis, so here you go. Roughly, when my dipstick showed full, it was really at the bottom of the safe area. 1/2" off, which equals a quart. My new mark, after filling with 5 quarts, was 5/8" above the full mark, so 1/8" off the correct level. Anyways, gonna get a new and correct dipstick. I already ordered a replacement lifter, intake gasket and oil filter. I'm sure because of the holidays it'll take a bit longer to get here. In the meantime I'll drain the oil (again) and clean the intake (again). I already cleaned the block/ heads pretty well. The good thing about doing something for the second time is that you can do it a lot faster. Taking off the intake took about half an hour. And yes, after that I will drive it until it dies... And I'm already thinking about new engines...

 

[Richard Sweet]

It doesn't sound like the oil was really low, like not even reading on the dip stick, so maybe that did not cause a problem. The lifter not pumping up sounds like the problem, but I'm no expert on hydraulic lifters. Aren't the lifters new? Could it be defective?

On the intake water leak, what do you attribute that to? Is it possible that the metal pieces that you added to block the heat crossover was lifting the intake off of the head enough to leave a space? Did you use sealant around those pieces or wherever the leak is occurring? Did you do dry test fitting of the intake and measure the gaps at the front and rear "china" rails to see if you needed a gasket there or not?

Just take one problem at a time and give yourself time to figure it out.
Hope you have a nice Christmas and can get your project running well again.

 

[65barracudaLA]

Merry Christmas and thanks for all your help! Aside from the valve train noise the engine runs pretty good, so I hope it's gonna be that bad. I marked the dipstick in mid-October, so since then it should have been close to ok, maybe a touch overfull. Who knows how long the previous owner drove around with low oil. Going forward it's definitely good to know where it needs to be. Apparently bad lifters and cams has been a general problem recently, so I wasn't even that surprised. Yes, it could be that the heat crossover block-off raised didn't allow it to seal. I did use sealant, but I was afraid I might have used a bit too much?! I will cut out the area from the new gasket to make sure it seals. The china walls were RTV'd and those actually sealed well. Anyways, now I know almost everything there is to know about rockers and soon I might even be able to install an intake without leaks haha.

 

[junkyardhero]

the new lifter that collapsed, who was the maker? did you disassemble and clean them all before install?

 

[66fyssh]

Merry Christmas!!!

Like you said, you're getting good at removing and replacing the intake!!! That's a good thing.

A quart low should not hurt anything. I think you'll be fine after replacing the lifter and intake gasket. Use plenty of Right Stuff or your flavor of sealant.

Put it back together and run it!!!

 

[65barracudaLA]

the new lifter that collapsed, who was the maker? did you disassemble and clean them all before install?

It was a Lunati Micro-Trol lifter and that's what I ordered to replace it. No, I didn't clean them. They're made in USA and someone here on FABO recommended them. They have these snap rings instead of a wire. I bought some cheap Harbor Freight snap ring pliers, but those are too flimsy to get the clip off. I wanted to at least inspect he failed lifter.

Anyways, I also ordered a Mopar Performance dipstick from Amazon. Turns out it's exactly the same as the one I have. It appears to be a fake or repackaged. It's made in Taiwan even though Amazon says it's made in USA (sold by Amazon, not a 3rd party). Pretty shocking! I guess I should go find one in a junkyard. I'd prefer a non-chrome one anyways.

The intake gasket is not getting here until Tuesday, who knows when I'll get the lifter. I ordered both from Jegs and whatever shipping date is on their website has not been accurate. I had that issue with the radiator earlier this year. I ordered a new Mopar Performance intermediate shaft mid-November and they still can't tell me when it's going to ship.

In the meantime I'll clean the intake and fix some other miscellaneous things.

 

[65barracudaLA]

One more thing I noticed that could explain my startup oil pressure issue: I was using a Wix 51515 and before that a STP S8A and after some research I found out that the 51515 doesn't have a standpipe. Don't know about the STP. Both have a anti-drainback valve, which I thought was the same as the standpipe. Anyways, now I got a Wix 51806, which supposedly has the standpipe.

 

[65barracudaLA]

I realized how much this thread is also a diary for the car and I can go back and see when I did what. I took no photos today, but got a few things done.

One of the rear shocks had a regular washer against the rubber and not a cup washer. I bought a kit with nuts a while ago, so I put them on both sides today.

While I was down there I checked the gear oil level and it looked fine.

Then I drained the oil and changed the filter for the new Wix 51806. I cut open the old filter and there was luckily no metal in it.

I also took off the passenger side exhaust manifold. I want to get it blasted and then paint it (again), because the paint is already coming off everywhere. At the same time I want to fix the possible exhaust leak. I also want to dremel out the flap. I'm sure that'll gain a me 1/2 horsepower haha. I have another manifold, so I might put that on temporarily. I don't know when I'll have time to go get the one blasted. I have some cheap gaskets laying around for that. Once it's painted I'll use the Remflex.

While the intake is off I also installed an adapter that let's me use the dummy light as well as the new oil pressure gauge.

The intake gasket and the lifter are not gonna get here before Tuesday, so not a lot I can do until then. Oh, except finish cleaning the intake (again).

Happy New Year!

 

[65barracudaLA]

It's been a while. I think since my last post I replaced the intake gasket twice, but finally I'm getting somewhere. I've actually been driving the car quite a bit. There was a coolant leak at the intake and it's possible that that came from the heat crossover block-off plates that I made, but I also took closer look at the intake itself and there was some damage from prying off the intake. Not sure if that was me or a previous owner, but it sure didn't help sealing. I thought about filling it in with some high heat epoxy, but decided to smooth out the surface best I could and make sure there was just enough RTV to make sure it sealed. I also looked a bit closer to where the intake seales to the China wall at the rear of the engine. I abandoned blocking the heat crossover and instead used an Edelbrock insulated gasket (#9265) to remove some heat from the carb and I guess it's also a bit of a carb spacer (3/8" or so). Since there was a bit (not a lot) of coolant in the oil, I took apart every single lifter and cleaned them. I was also recommended to use a thinner oil. So I used a full synthetic 5W-30 Valvoline oil and that seems to finally helped with the cold start noise. It still take a moment until it builds oil pressure and if you listen closely you can still hear a hint of lifter tick, but it's quite the difference. This time I took the valve covers off while priming the oil pump and checked if there was oil coming to the rockers. At first I was just bumping the starter, but was only getting oil to one side. Then I just turned the engine by hand and got oil to both sides. I did not expect it to squirt out like it did... I also replaced the harmonic balancer and the engine runs a lot smoother than before. I replace the transmission pan once again with the newer style Mopar gasket (#4295875AC) and that finally stopped the leak as far as I can tell. Anyways, it runs really good now! I tuned the carb a bit, but I'm only getting 13-14 inches mercury of vacuum at idle. When I put it in gear it goes down to about 10. I don't know if that's normal or if I have a leak, but I will also check with my neighbors fancy digital vacuum gauge.
Anyways, the whole process was quite frustrating, but it looks like the engine is finally running well. I learned quite a bit about small blocks in the process and I'm sure there's a lot more to learn. But at least I can drive the car now and maybe I even get to start on some bodywork and fixing the paint?! Oh yeah, and installing some sound deadener. We'll see...