'65 Mustang Hi-po vs '65 Formula S

[Dave_J]

My original 273 4-barrel clutch lasted 90,000 miles and a bunch of speed shifts. Finally crapped out. Local parts store replacement clutch was garbage. Couldn't speed shift it even when new without slipping badly. Tried a couple different ones, finally figured out that although the catalogs listed what I was given as a 273 four barrel clutch, they were really six cylinder clutch assemblies. Finally found an actual Commando 273 clutch disc and paired that with a Weber pressure plate. Boy that would wear out your knee if you didn't put the trans in neutral at a long light, but it also didn't slip. Only problem was that after two years, one of the release fingers would bend and the clutch wouldn't fully disengage. After the second one did the same thing, I converted to a 340 clutch. Found that even a local parts store 340 clutch couldn't be speed shifted without slipping. Switched to aftermarket (Zoom, etc) which at the time would actually be in stock at your local speed shop. They worked, but wore out relatively quickly compared to my original clutch. Went through several of them (I've owned the car for over 50 years), then switched to a Centerforce dual friction clutch, and it's lasted longer than anything else I've ever run. Only problem is it bites so hard I've gotten afraid to speed shift it, but I haven't raced anything in a long time so the tenth or two I lose by not speed shifting doesn't matter.

The 1967 US Forest Service Dodge D100 Maintance bin truck I bought had a \6 and a granny 4 speed. Was Baby Poop Yellow. Had 17 inch split rim wheels. Was a 2 wheel drive. 5.36 gears in a 741 housing. The clutch in that sucker was about 12 inches and the flywheel I could not install by myself as it must have been 80 pounds. You could put in in 1st gear and let the clutch out and walk circles around the truck at idle. Top speed in 4th was maybe 65 MPH but shook so hard I never drove above 50 MPH.

 

[dibbons]

My original 273 4-barrel clutch lasted 90,000 miles and a bunch of speed shifts.

I used a McCleod clutch in my 273 bracket racer without any problems power shifting. Sent it back to the factory for a rebuild once and was "scolded" when they found a small balance weight having been welded to the pressure plate (which was added when the local Salinas shop I used balanced the engine for me). They said if it happened again, it would void my warranty.

 

[KosmicKuda]

Around 1971, my GF's (later wife) younger sister was attending Ohio U in Athens OH. She needed a ride back to school so my GF and I took her using their 66 Mustang coupe. We did the round trip in one day, probably 3-1/2 hrs each way with me doing all the driving on highways winding through the hills in southern Ohio. 289-2 and clunky 3 speed manual on the floor. I didn't drive fast at all and doubt that I ever floored it.
My everyday car was a 1967 Barracuda FB, 273 Commando 4 speed but not a Formula S, so 10" drums and no sway bar.

I was surprised at the difference in handling. What I remember is the Mustang had a wallowy front end and the tail was low. Why is it most of the vintage Mustangs are tail draggers?

Anyway, I thought my cuda was much more stable and predictable. I scored a lot of points with my future FIL when I helped him change the heater core in it. They had a new house built and moved in early 1972. That thing sat around for a few yrs befire he eventually junked it.

 

[Dave_J]

Around 1971, my GF's (later wife) younger sister was attending Ohio U in Athens OH. She needed a ride back to school so my GF and I took her using their 66 Mustang coupe. We did the round trip in one day, probably 3-1/2 hrs each way with me doing all the driving on highways winding through the hills in southern Ohio. 289-2 and clunky 3 speed manual on the floor. I didn't drive fast at all and doubt that I ever floored it.
My everyday car was a 1967 Barracuda FB, 273 Commando 4 speed but not a Formula S, so 10" drums and no sway bar.

I was surprised at the difference in handling. What I remember is the Mustang had a wallowy front end and the tail was low. Why is it most of the vintage Mustangs are tail draggers?

Anyway, I thought my cuda was much more stable and predictable. I scored a lot of points with my future FIL when I helped him change the heater core in it. They had a new house built and moved in early 1972. That thing sat around for a few yrs befire he eventually junked it.

Yes, back in the early 1970's and 1980's the Early Fox body cars had no value. Ford had flooded the market and we called them Rustang's. They made Millions of 64-1/2, 65-66 Mustangs, most were I6 or 260 and 289 2bb. They left huge piles of Iron Oxide in many junk yards.

But Chrysler made 22,000 1965 Barracudas, most were \6 and 273 2bbl.

So, which are a true classic?

 

[65 Cuda 340]

Then there were the 390 Mustangs in 67. Bob Tasca of Tasca Ford told Hot Rod Magazine (November 1967) that 390 Mustangs sold really well "last fall and into the winter, but by March they dropped off to practically nothing. That's when the snow melted off the asphalt. . . . We found the car so non-competitive for the super-car field, in a sense we began to feel we were cheating the customer. He was paying for what he saw advertised in all the magazines as a fast car but that's not what he was getting."

Tasca told Henry Ford II, "I told him I believed our cars were competitive in price, more than competitive in style and interior appointments, but hopelessly inadequate under the hood. We haven't been the hottest since the flathead V8 and that was his father's idea so I couldn't congratulate him for that."

But then there was "Bullitt," which through movie magic portrayed a 390 Mustang as faster than a Charger R/T. Now it's an icon.

 

[KosmicKuda]

Then there were the 390 Mustangs in 67. Bob Tasca of Tasca Ford told Hot Rod Magazine (November 1967) that 390 Mustangs sold really well "last fall and into the winter, but by March they dropped off to practically nothing. That's when the snow melted off the asphalt. . . . We found the car so non-competitive for the super-car field, in a sense we began to feel we were cheating the customer. He was paying for what he saw advertised in all the magazines as a fast car but that's not what he was getting."

Tasca told Henry Ford II, "I told him I believed our cars were competitive in price, more than competitive in style and interior appointments, but hopelessly inadequate under the hood. We haven't been the hottest since the flathead V8 and that was his father's idea so I couldn't congratulate him for that."

But then there"Bullitt," which through movie magic portrayed a 390 Mustang as faster than a Charger R/T. Now it's an icon.

Yep, I remember street racing my 67 4 speed 273-4 against a 390 Mustang and I beat him.

True story was the stock 68 Charger in Bullitt ran circles around the Mustang. They modified the car so it could make a pesentable showing. The engine sounds were also dubbed in from Ford race cars and all of a sudden McQueen was double clutching every shift.

 

[RustyRatRod]

In general the Hi-Po 289 had the edge on the 273 Commando depending on drive rear axle etc.
But the Barracuda had superior handling.

The Shelby package would take care of that, though.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yep, I remember street racing my 67 4 speed 273-4 against a 390 Mustang and I beat him.

True story was the stock 68 Charger in Bullitt ran circles around the Mustang. They modified the car so it could make a pesentable showing. The engine sounds were also dubbed in from Ford race cars and all of a sudden McQueen was double clutching every shift.

Yeah there's an article floating around the net that chronicles all of it. How the Charger was bone stock other than body and suspension mods for the jumps. How the Rustang had to be totally modified just to keep up with the Charger. It's all in the article. Wherever it is. I've not been able to find it in a while.

I think what hurt Ford most was their insistence on using retarded camshaft timing and they did it from the early 60s all through the muscle era and it cost them dearly, IMO. I think had they not done that, they would have won more races everywhere. That BOSS 429 they had for example, compared to the 426 Street Hemi, it was a no brainer who'd win pretty much every time. The BOSS 429 is one of those "should have could have" stories. Pretty much the same with all the rest. Even still, Chevy still couldn't keep up with either and they had to have the likes of Wally Parks and Bill France to put sanctions and restrictions on Chrysler and Ford. Chevy never would have won much at all were it not for that.

 

[toolmanmike]

My 1st car was a '66 Barracuda Formula S Commando 273/auto (still have it) and one of the other kids at my high school had a '66 Mustang 2+2 289 4 speed with typical 80's mods, Holley "double pumper, headers ETC.
We got into it on Dixie Hwy one night traffic light to traffic light.
At the first one he yelled "that big window is the stupidest thing I have ever seen!!!"
I said " it's gonna look smaller in a second!!"
Then the light turned green and I got the hole shot ( launching a 4 speed can be hard on bias plys) and I gapped him by 2 cars to the next light.
Did it 2 more times before he turned left and hid.
He avoided me like the plague around school after that.

Good times..

I love to hear stories like that.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I love to hear stories like that.

Isn't it funny though......you'll not hear stories like that about any of this new stuff. Kinda like back then the cars were so dang cool people wrote songs about them. Good songs too. Never again.

 

[Dave_J]

After I bought my moms 1965 Barracuda back from the guy that bought it for his son, I drove it for 3-4 years with the 383 mag 4bbl A727 combo. But the left exhaust manifold had a slot grounded in it to clear the steering shaft. In a stright line this was fine but if the engine torqued up it would lock up the steering. I tried replacing the motor mounts with solid ones but it only helped a little. Doing a 'U-Joint' bend around was not available back then for common foke, more of a race only back then. And the 383 left no room for air flow in the tiny engine bay so it was always over heating the engine.

The car was very fast with the stock 383 Magnum, Ford 9 inch rear with 3.90:1 gears and a locker.

In 1991-92 (I forget year) I took my moms 1978 LeBarron's 318 and did a complete 0.040" over 9.5:1 pistons and a 340 Resto cam to it but had a set of 273 closed chamber heads with 1.88 Intake and back cut 1.50 ex valves, pocket ported and clean up of the ports. In the A904 I put a 'Trans-go' kit in. This 318 combo with alumumn intake and shorty headers from "Stan's Exhaust" in Auburn WA weighed about 100 pounds less that the 383 with cast iron everything. The header was not a true header, it was a 14 gauge 2.25 inch tube with 1-5/8 primary's bent down to clear the steering, frame and torsion bars. Could not find the early A body Fenderwell headers and Stan wanted $800+ to make a set.

I was at a stop light when a guy with a big chested blond pulled up in the fast lane. It was a 1969 Chevelle SS396. He reved the engine a couple times so when the light turned green, it was on. First light I hole shot him. I was waiting at second light. This light he got the hole shot big time but I was still at the next light a little before him so he turned left and drove away.

Hummmm a 40 over 318 is a 325 right??? SS396 beat by a tiny 325......

 

[stillrunners]

The Shelby package would take care of that, though.

Oh.....now we are talking packages.......

 

[RustyRatRod]

Oh.....now we are talking packages.......

Sure. Mopars guys are QUICK to bring up the Formula S package, right? RIGHT? RIGHT? lol

 

[65 Cuda 340]

Well, the Formula S was an actual production car, built on factory assembly lines. Shelby GT350s started out as production Mustangs, but they were sent to California to be converted by Shelby in his small race car shop by a handful of employees who revised their front suspension arms for better geometry, added Koni shocks, traction bars, wider wheels and tires and Galaxy rear axles with Detroit Locker limited slip. None of this was available on a production Mustang.

 

[stillrunners]

Sure. Mopars guys are QUICK to bring up the Formula S package, right? RIGHT? RIGHT?

Yep....just a upgrade package from the manufactor.....kinda like all the braces the Stang needed as you added HP.....not a trip to Shelby land .

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yep....just a upgrade package from the manufactor.....kinda like all the braces the Stang needed as you added HP.....not a trip to Shelby land .

But that was whose fault for not upping the ante? Yup. Chrysler. lol

Even still, those Shelbys lost a good many races.

 

[65 Cuda 340]

 

[65 Cuda 340]

 

[Dave_J]

When I had my 1965 GT350 in California I knew in a drag race it would KILL my moms 1965 Barracuda Formula S. Both were 4 speeds. Both had 3.9x:1 posi type rear ends. Shelby had better tires and a better clutch. Shelby had more HP and Tq but was about 500 pounds heaver than the Barracuda.

But I also felt the way we had the Barracuda set up it would out corner the GT350. I drove both cars on Hy 1 from Monterey CA down thru Big Sir so I knew how they both took the corners.

My mom ordered the Barracuda with a trailer towing package. It had 5 leafs, 8 3/4 SureGrip with 3.91:1 gears. It had D78-14's on 4 corners. Small BP but 4 piston KH disc's up front.

We had a 1963 Airstream Bamby that was 13 foot long and the Barracuda pulled it just fine at 45 to 50 MPH if she avoided big hill starts, Clutch issues. I sold it back in 2015 for $18,000

 

[KosmicKuda]

The Shelby package would take care of that, though.

Yeah well....after the Cobra was out, Ford approached Shelby about making a hi-po Mustang. I don't know the exact quote but Carroll said something like:
"What!? That secretary's car?"
He had to redo the front and rear suspensions to correct the geometry and improve traction.

I've worked on enough vintage Fords to know the suspensions are not the greatest.
One was a friend's very nice 69 Torino that he bought an all-in-one suspension kit for. I helped him replace EVERY component including adding a rear sway bar and a larger front one.
After driving it I told him, it's not as good as a comparable Mopar. Since then he's bought a Road Runner and Charger and loves them. He said if he had met me sooner he'd have gotten into Mopars first.

 

[Dave_J]

My first military tour in Germany was Heidelberg in 1975. I worked at Eurisa & 7th Army HQ as a Telephone installer/Repair tech.

I was a SP/4 and my SP5 section leader had a Torino GT with the 428 or 429. I had to leave my car, 1965 Dart GT, back in USA. I'd gotten a few rides on the Autobahn in that car and it was quick but cornered like a school bus.

My Telephone work van was a OD-Green 1969 Dodge B100 with a 318 and 3 speed on the tree and 3.91 open rear, and I think it cornered better than his Torino.

Many old fart German BMW drivers lost in a stop light race to that Van.
A 340 cam and lifter set was shipped to me and somehow got installed on a long 4 day weekend. ;)

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yeah well....after the Cobra was out, Ford approached Shelby about making a hi-po Mustang. I don't know the exact quote but Carroll said something like:
"What!? That secretary's car?"
He had to redo the front and rear suspensions to correct the geometry and improve traction.

I've worked on enough vintage Fords to know the suspensions are not the greatest.
One was a friend's very nice 69 Torino that he bought an all-in-one suspension kit for. I helped him replace EVERY component including adding a rear sway bar and a larger front one.
After driving it I told him, it's not as good as a comparable Mopar. Since then he's bought a Road Runner and Charger and loves them. He said if he had met me sooner he'd have gotten into Mopars first.

View attachment 1716110763

The suspensions on the early ones were terrible. Especially the Mustang and Falcon.

 

[Dave_J]

Pictures of my 1965 Barracuda Formula S after I re-bought it with the 383 under the hood. Yes it had a 1966 Barracuda dash when my mom bought it.