904 Transmission Fluid Recommendation
- Thread starter darc1722
- Start date
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Lonewolf3165
Living the Dream!
Yeah your right. Any intellignet person would have to disregard the hydrualic priciples & theory that automatics transmissions have operated on for decades & the word of an oil company representative for the "experts" on the internet! My Bad!
rayer: I guess there hasn't been a minivan trans failure since they switched fluids then.
Lonewolf3165
Living the Dream!
Type 4 fluids would be the Honda ATF-Z, Toyota Type-IV, & the Mopar+4 etc. I haven't memorized the brand names yet & their proper designations. Forgive my ignorance.
Let me make it clear. I'm not telling anyone with a newer vehicle that recommends the use of a certain fluid NOT to use what's specified. Preserve your warranty & do what your told. I'm also not saying that there aren't qualities to the newer fluids. I'm just trying to dispell the mistruths about what can be used in the transmission like a TF without problems. There is no evidence or case studies to prove that conventional ATF causes failure by itself. Chysler products, espescially the minivans, were notorious for transmission failure! My father was a Chrysler Factory Service rep for several years during the '90s in Southern Calif area until he retired & he always talked about the problematic transmissions in the cars & trucks. If a transmission fails it's due to another cause. Defying hydraulic & mechanical theory won't change that. Seals, pump failure, mechanical failure, or just plain old wear & tear. Put in what you want. Put kool-aid in it if you want! Whatever makes you happy!
Let me make it clear. I'm not telling anyone with a newer vehicle that recommends the use of a certain fluid NOT to use what's specified. Preserve your warranty & do what your told. I'm also not saying that there aren't qualities to the newer fluids. I'm just trying to dispell the mistruths about what can be used in the transmission like a TF without problems. There is no evidence or case studies to prove that conventional ATF causes failure by itself. Chysler products, espescially the minivans, were notorious for transmission failure! My father was a Chrysler Factory Service rep for several years during the '90s in Southern Calif area until he retired & he always talked about the problematic transmissions in the cars & trucks. If a transmission fails it's due to another cause. Defying hydraulic & mechanical theory won't change that. Seals, pump failure, mechanical failure, or just plain old wear & tear. Put in what you want. Put kool-aid in it if you want! Whatever makes you happy!
Uh, that too would be incorrect. The high failure rate in the first generation Chrysler electronic transmissions was predominantly due to unwitting owners and shop techs using Dexron or a Dexron and Lubeguard substitute instead of following the manufacturer's specification for ATF+3. This was determined by the factory and published in several tech documents. I'm not going to look them up for you. After the current 7176 ATF+4 spec was finalized Chrysler released a TSB instructing the dealers to standardize on that service fill for all but a few specific transmission which were specified in the TSB. I'm not going to look that up for you either. This was done to eliminate the confusion about the fluids which was costing Chrysler boatloads of money for in-warranty failures. It's all factual history. You know the old saying - "People who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it."
You are wrong for telling people they can use any fluid in any transmission. It is irresponsible and disingenuous to make such statements on a web forum where newbies and inexperienced wrench turners come for advice.
Lonewolf3165
Living the Dream!
OK you have your opinion based on what you believe & you can disagree about the failure rate of the transmissions. I certainly know that the history of the transmissions back here in the east they had a larger than normal failure rate at very early mileage. I also have copies of the TSBs, None of which can claim the failures were due to the ATF solely. I find it funny that you keep claiming to have evidence to prove me wrong but site none of & you call me disingenuous. I stated the basis for my argument here & the theory to support it which you insist on denying. That's fine. I do not wish to contuinue this here since it has become a hijacked thread & that was never my intention. I would like to just say we agree to disagree on this & be done with it. I wish you good luck & hope we can share future threads on common subject where we can agree & enjoy them. Thanks for the spirited debate.
Now let's go to the Hot Mopar Babes thread & all be freinds again! LW.
Now let's go to the Hot Mopar Babes thread & all be freinds again! LW.
TrailBeast
AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
I run Type F in my 904 with some minor trans mods (separator plate mods and spring rate changes) and I have also run Dexron in them for decades.
Aamco uses Dexron in everything, with an additive for Hondas.
I run Type F for the shift differences though.
BTW, who cares what minivans needed during whatever years? :bootysha:
Aamco uses Dexron in everything, with an additive for Hondas.
I run Type F for the shift differences though.
BTW, who cares what minivans needed during whatever years? :bootysha:
green1
Well-Known Member
I knew this was going into an oil piss match. lol.
Lonewolf3165
Living the Dream!
Synthetic piss? No! No! I'm just kidding!! :violent1: Lol!
Those new 4-speed autos got put into lots of Chrysler vehicles. That's why it was such a big deal and almost everyone who was concerned with it either on the customer or vendor side was aware of it on some level. Mostly Chrysler just got a bad rap from the idiots who parroted the junk tranny stories.BTW, who cares what minivans needed during whatever years? :bootysha:
Minivans happened to be the biggest sellers - and a perfect example of why you cannot run any fluid you like in any kind of transmission.
But if you don't care, it's your transmission. By all means, run whatever. I believe that sentiment has already been echoed, tho so... :sign3:
LH23H2R
Well-Known Member
Hmm ... Let me squeeze some lighter fluid on this smoldering fire pit ...
The A-604 was Chrysler's first , if not thee first , auto trans which had no bands ; it was all clutches .
That alone would indicate the necessity of a unique trans fluid formula , henceforth "+3" , ad seq.
"Type 'F'" was specified back in the 50's , as FoMoCo's Cruise-O-Matic , et seq. , were pan-fed their fluid , necessitating the foam inhibitors , and thusly adding viscosity to the fluid .
ATF Suffix A (Dexron , a one-time GM trademark) was a much different fluid back in the days prior to the 1972 ban on Sperm Whale Oil (which was used as a friction modifier). That fluid would last virtually forever !
Dex II was its replacement in circa 1972 ; Type 'F' was unchanged , and was mandatory on all '76 & earlier FoMoCo transmissions , including the FMX .
Dexron III / Mercon is too thin these days . Has been for 20+ years . When lockup torque converters were intro'ed in the 70's and overdrive automatics became common , the fluid didn't need to be as viscous as the operating heat of the trans was down .
However , extra friction modifiers were necessary due to higher stall speeds of converters ; enter MerCon V , DexRon IV and Plus 3 .
B&M's ATF is essentially Type F . I can't speak for *cringe* TCI's stuff .
I used Lucas "Sure-Shift" mixed with Type F in my 1972 A-904-LA (which reminds me ... it's time for a filtre / fluid change and band adjustments ) .
The A-604 was Chrysler's first , if not thee first , auto trans which had no bands ; it was all clutches .
That alone would indicate the necessity of a unique trans fluid formula , henceforth "+3" , ad seq.
"Type 'F'" was specified back in the 50's , as FoMoCo's Cruise-O-Matic , et seq. , were pan-fed their fluid , necessitating the foam inhibitors , and thusly adding viscosity to the fluid .
ATF Suffix A (Dexron , a one-time GM trademark) was a much different fluid back in the days prior to the 1972 ban on Sperm Whale Oil (which was used as a friction modifier). That fluid would last virtually forever !
Dex II was its replacement in circa 1972 ; Type 'F' was unchanged , and was mandatory on all '76 & earlier FoMoCo transmissions , including the FMX .
Dexron III / Mercon is too thin these days . Has been for 20+ years . When lockup torque converters were intro'ed in the 70's and overdrive automatics became common , the fluid didn't need to be as viscous as the operating heat of the trans was down .
However , extra friction modifiers were necessary due to higher stall speeds of converters ; enter MerCon V , DexRon IV and Plus 3 .
B&M's ATF is essentially Type F . I can't speak for *cringe* TCI's stuff .
I used Lucas "Sure-Shift" mixed with Type F in my 1972 A-904-LA (which reminds me ... it's time for a filtre / fluid change and band adjustments ) .
Lonewolf3165
Living the Dream!
HONDA Produced the bandless transmissions as their Hondamatic H2 way back in the early '70s & in later versions of the H3 & H4. Used Dexron fluids in them well into the 90s. All were band less transmissions.
At long last! Someone who actually knows that which they speak.
Thank you, sir. :cheers:
LH23H2R
Well-Known Member
Those were 2-speed automatics , right ?
Like I've said previously , DexRon used to be different ( ATF , Suffix 'A') prior to 1973 ; I'm certain that Honda didn't specify ATF , Suffix 'F' in their transmissions .
Then there were the Toyo-Matics , which were based upon the PowerGlide design ...
LH23H2R
Well-Known Member
I appreciate your accolades , thank you .
I am , however , pretty dumb . Much of my (shared-knowledge) info is based solely upon foggy recollections and *educated* guesses .
I've been using Type 'F' in all of my cars' TorqueFlites since the very late 80's when I first started driving . The only *variation* has been , as of late , and due to financial-accessibility , Lucas' "Sure-Shift" ; I got it at work at a deeply-discounted price (employee discount) .
Even then , I don't use it 100% , as I mix 2 quarts with 2-3 quarts of Type 'F' .
river rat
Well-Known Member
can't wait for the which oil is better discussion next...
Lonewolf3165
Living the Dream!
H2 was a 2 speed, H3 was a 3 speed, H4 & H4A 4 speeds. Dexron was the ATF specified & was factory fill until Honda switched to Z-1, but still said Dexron II or equivalent. No, Type "F" was not specified. Honda A/Ts have been, with the exception of the Isuzu built Passport, band less design. I just wanted to clarify the timeline of the band less A/Ts.
Lonewolf3165
Living the Dream!
Olive oil is what my doctor recommends. But he's fat like me!
LH23H2R
Well-Known Member
Okay , sounds right . Thanks for clarifying !
DexRon II was released in circa 1973 , after the ban on Sperm Whale Oil.
I *believe* that Isuzu transmission were/ are Hydramatics , but I could (most likely) be wrong ...
You learn something new every day (unless you're a hermit like myself) !
Definitely worth investigating :glasses7:.
mr.twister
Active Member
ALL torqueflites without a converter clutch(think pre-80's) can get away with almost anything.We have found Dexron fluids work best all around.Type F works great as well,it just has slightly less lubricity,that's only a concern for extremely high line pressures(race only)where the pump actually see rear loading of the inner rotor. As far as all the fancy fluids go,such as +4,mercon V,dex VI,etc. etc.,these came about for torque converter clutch feel,super slick,very viscous fluids,(waste of money in a non-tcc trans)Lonewolf.....you are correct,I know what you meant!
cannucky
The Guy With No Birthday
Extra virgin olive oil is better than standard weight but has a lower lubricity factor and should be used with a stable additive such as KY or Astroglide .
That said as someone who is about to fill a 904 with new red frictions and billet drum etc....this has been a very enlightening thread -thank you
That said as someone who is about to fill a 904 with new red frictions and billet drum etc....this has been a very enlightening thread -thank you
Lonewolf3165
Living the Dream!
LOL! Oh you frisky Canadians!;)
Lonewolf3165
Living the Dream!
Thank you! :thumleft:
green1
Well-Known Member
lol, I didn't think any one would remember the sperm whale oil. ( an aside, some 90 fords would chatter- ford found a synthetic whale oil to fix it-1 pint, done) It boils down the the modifiers.
Old powerglides, fordomatics, slim jim pontiacs- crap friction material. That;s why Ford wanted fluid for less slip- same crap friction material. And helped a mopar, less slip. Think about a motorcycle; wet clutch. smooth operation, and hardly any wear, un-like a dry clutch.
Now all the new stuff is better friction material, not old organic stuff. Any fluid will work. dextron3 is good, dextron4 is good, ford is good- the trans doesn't care anymore. It just wont's some lube to keep bands and clutches from sticking, and needs to run the valve body and converter.
Old powerglides, fordomatics, slim jim pontiacs- crap friction material. That;s why Ford wanted fluid for less slip- same crap friction material. And helped a mopar, less slip. Think about a motorcycle; wet clutch. smooth operation, and hardly any wear, un-like a dry clutch.
Now all the new stuff is better friction material, not old organic stuff. Any fluid will work. dextron3 is good, dextron4 is good, ford is good- the trans doesn't care anymore. It just wont's some lube to keep bands and clutches from sticking, and needs to run the valve body and converter.
duster wonder
National Guard Member
what about trick shift? with a shift kit n high stall
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