a500 question

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volaredon

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is there any "special" belleville springs to look for, in the rear clutch? (as in better replacements available)
I have an a500 apart, it ran and drove before pulling from the 91, 318 dakota it came from (at least up to 30 mph or so, as fast as I tried to get it to go before I gutted the truck) Its got the 5 disc rear clutch and 4 disc front. I was surprised to find a busted belleville in it, as well as it seemed to drive and shift.
I pulled it apart "just because" I didn't know its history, and the age + miles on it. (168k)/ not because of any known problem. Just a "freshen up" before it goes into what I'm using it in. Don't know if anyone has ever been inside this thing before. other than the pan gasket is an aftermarket rubber one, and not the original style reusable one.

I went ahead and "pre bought" some parts before I tore it apart, just because I knew I was going into it. Including (2) new Bellevilles (I have another trans to do after this one, that takes the same part) among other things. I went to get the new one out of the package and lined it up to the original to compare them. The replacements I got seemed "light". I got the calipers out and yup... original is 0.084", while the replacements are only" 0.063". I AINT USING THAT...... IDK the brand or origin.... something I got off of Feebay. for the $12-15 I spent on the pair, I'd rather scrap them than take a chance on them.

Other than that, the fluid was bright red, and all the clutches and bands, look like they could be put back in and reused. (I'm not gonna) Other than that bad belleville, the only other thing I noticed were some brittle rubber piston seals. I still have to put the output in my press and release that snap ring for the heavy OD spring... I have the release tool and the new dummy shaft to line things up upon reassembly. I also have a billet accumulator (old one was plastic... yuk!!) and also a Superior brand "Super Servo" for the rear band/ I can't find any such upgrade servo for the front band.
the last A500 (that one was an "RE" version) I was inside of, I thought sure I replaced the front servo with something similar. I didnt go "all the way" into that trans, only far enough to fix a 2-3 shift flare (from what I understand that was a known issue with later 90s A500s because of something to do with a vendor issue on the forward clutch piston. The new seals in the kit I got for that one had the outer seal packaged seperate for the purpose of labelling it to tell of its "newness and improved" over the original to "compensate" for this issue.... though its been 4-5 years since I had that one apart... Could they have had a "better" servo available for the front band of an A500 "then" but discontinued it for some reason between then and now? I know they make them for the 727 and the OD trannys based off of THAT.... because the last trans I rebuilt before this current one was the 46RE thats in my wifes durango, and I still have the boxes those replacement servos came in....
I put every upgrade I could find into that one, because I aet that one up for towing.
 
From the mopar parts giant web site. 3 different belleville part numbers. 1942414, 4728487, 4617191(this is the only 1 still avail from mopar so it says. about 20.00)
 
apparently those are Disco'd I looked up your "mopar parts giant" and none of those numbers came up there either
Was hoping one of our resident trans experts like maybe @VOETOM might pop in.
Im gonna try W I T trans parts where I got the basic rebuild kit next if I dont get any help here.
 
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Not sure where/what you looked up, but if you google search that number 4617191, it comes up 1990-1996 for 13.75.
 
ok came up that way.... don't know why it didn't the 1st time..... when it just showed a gazillion pix and PNs of discontinued trans parts there
 
Supplying us with the 7 digit number from the left side rail of the transmission would be the only way to be sure of the correct part number.
 
The one I finally found on parts giant (after a 2nd look) says it "fits" 91-96", which plenty covers it.
I think it's a matter of "getting what I paid for" with the thin ones I got the first time. It would have "fit" and "worked for a while" but it was obviously just cheap copy. I did put in '91 Dakota into parts giant and it said "fits"
So I don't think ID'ing the right one is much of a problem. But I'll run out to the garage after work and get that number if it's that important.
 
pretty sure I have the right part ID'd but for Townsend here it is.... PK53009261 0899 9030
 
Gonna try W I T.
Mopar parts Giant= ripoff. I wanted 2 of them. $13.95 ea. OK. $9,95 shipping.... I guess. $9.95 "vintage part fee... W T F? they wanted $48 for 2 of them by the time they added their BS fees.... well Im screwed....
gotta pay the BS fee. What W I T shows does say "China" and IDK if its the same as the junk I already got for this thing... guess I'll get the factory one just in case so I know I got something good... thats a lotta work to pull it down just for that, down the road. Crap.
I called the local dealer I know a guy at, (I buy as little as possible from dealers) and that part shows discontinued since Feb of '16. Almost 10 years!
I did get a few other goodies for it, from WIT while I was on the phone today.... I did get the rebuild kit from them almost a year ago, just now opening up this tranny.
 
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Source info is from the 1990-1993 Dodge Truck Dealership Parts Catalog.
Date code 0899 translates to May 31 1991.
53009261 was used in Dakota, Ram Vans, Ram Wagons and other models.
Catalog description: A500,with 5.2 liter engine, with electronic torque converter lock-up after 3/6/1991.
Spring part number is 1942414 which was used from the 1960's and into the 1990's.
Mopar Giant search results are not always correct.
Example of spring found on eBay.

Spring, A904/A500 Forward clutch Return (4.970” OD) 1990-Up (Retro Fits to 1960) | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Spring, A904/A500 Forward clutch Return (4.970” OD) 1990-Up (Retro Fits to 1960) at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
 
that's the exact ones I originally bought. I clicked on your link and the listing said "buy another".... the ones I got from them a few months ago are junk.
the factory number you show and the number I had, supersede into each other.... The woman at W I T said the '60 to '80-something (89 I think she said) were slightly bigger diameter, she showed one that was 90-up that according to her notes "interchanges with the older one" The older one was something like 5.030" diameter. I asked her for a thickness and she couldnt tell me.
I pulled the trans from the Dakota myself, it was a '91. so probably original to that truck. All the "sun spots" (date codes) within the trans are '90 and '91.
Got 1 coming from W I T, 2 coming (hopefully) from Mopar Parts Giant. I say "hopefully" because of the "scam", "Fraud" posts that came up via Google about them...
I got extras because I have a (gasp) 904 in my 78 Fury I'd like to freshen up this spring after I get this one back in one pc. I already have a kit for that one on hand as well. That one is a non LU. still even has a drain plug in converter.
Got something else to fix on this 500. When I went to pull the speedo drive the retainer bolt snapped off. Gotta drill that out.
Seeing the hardened seals and the busted belleville makes me glad I tore into it. I have a fresh converter (different brand, I think I got it from somebody here) fresh in box, never had fluid in it. Thats a (rebuilder number) CR9L. I wish it was a CR9H. The A500 is probably going in my /6 powered 85 D150 via a factory early/mid 60s /6 to SB adapter plate that I have. I boughta whole engine and trans just to pirate those parts.
If I decide to put the 833 OD in there instead, that I have, then this A500 will go into my kid's 72 fury wagon. otherwise Ill be looking for another (either) 500 or 518 core, for that car.
 
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volaredon said:
is there any "special" belleville springs to look for, in the rear clutch? (as in better replacements available)
I have an a500 apart, it ran and drove before pulling from the 91, 318 dakota it came from (at least up to 30 mph or so, as fast as I tried to get it to go before I gutted the truck) Its got the 5 disc rear clutch and 4 disc front. I was surprised to find a busted belleville in it, as well as it seemed to drive and shift.
I pulled it apart "just because" I didn't know its history, and the age + miles on it. (168k)/ not because of any known problem. Just a "freshen up" before it goes into what I'm using it in. Don't know if anyone has ever been inside this thing before. other than the pan gasket is an aftermarket rubber one, and not the original style reusable one.

I went ahead and "pre bought" some parts before I tore it apart, just because I knew I was going into it. Including (2) new Bellevilles (I have another trans to do after this one, that takes the same part) among other things. I went to get the new one out of the package and lined it up to the original to compare them. The replacements I got seemed "light". I got the calipers out and yup... original is 0.084", while the replacements are only" 0.063". I AINT USING THAT...... IDK the brand or origin.... something I got off of Feebay. for the $12-15 I spent on the pair, I'd rather scrap them than take a chance on them.

Other than that, the fluid was bright red, and all the clutches and bands, look like they could be put back in and reused. (I'm not gonna) Other than that bad belleville, the only other thing I noticed were some brittle rubber piston seals. I still have to put the output in my press and release that snap ring for the heavy OD spring... I have the release tool and the new dummy shaft to line things up upon reassembly. I also have a billet accumulator (old one was plastic... yuk!!) and also a Superior brand "Super Servo" for the rear band/ I can't find any such upgrade servo for the front band.
the last A500 (that one was an "RE" version) I was inside of, I thought sure I replaced the front servo with something similar. I didnt go "all the way" into that trans, only far enough to fix a 2-3 shift flare (from what I understand that was a known issue with later 90s A500s because of something to do with a vendor issue on the forward clutch piston. The new seals in the kit I got for that one had the outer seal packaged seperate for the purpose of labelling it to tell of its "newness and improved" over the original to "compensate" for this issue.... though its been 4-5 years since I had that one apart... Could they have had a "better" servo available for the front band of an A500 "then" but discontinued it for some reason between then and now? I know they make them for the 727 and the OD trannys based off of THAT.... because the last trans I rebuilt before this current one was the 46RE thats in my wifes durango, and I still have the boxes those replacement servos came in....
I put every upgrade I could find into that one, because I aet that one up for towing.
Click to expand...
Yeah, those eBay Bellevilles are sketchy, stick with OEM or trusted brands. For the front servo, there were upgrades before, but they’re probably hard to find now. Looks like you’re doing everything right with the billet accumulator and seals.
 
Wasn't suggesting that you buy spring from ebay.
Ebay link was used as a reference to confirm that was the design spring you were looking for.
As of April 2000 part numbers 1942414 and 4517191 were still available and did not supersede each other.
A Chrysler dealer can check to see if either number superseded since 2000.
Numbers may now be discontinued but they can still run a history search on each number.
 
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Yeah I called the stealer by work because it's more convenient than the closest to home and got some kid Ive never had before, the guy I know apparently left early for the day. Though the kid did tell me that the number I asked for was discontinued in Feb '16.
According to Mopar parts giant the number I was looking for does say it fits the trans from that year make and model that I pulled the trans from
So I'll go with that for now. I did punch in one of the numbers you gave at that site and no dice there. The woman who answered at WIT did say something about another one that went all the way from '60--'89 though but didn't provide any part number either theirs or factory just that the one they show for my year, is backwards compatible. Can't believe all this mess for such a small part
 
OK... got my bushing kit, various snap rings (they didnt have a "snap ring kit" for this trans)--some individually, in OEM packaging even. Belleville was the only thing in there loose/ unpackaged I haven't been to the garage to get my caliper but it looks heavier then those linked and 1/2 the price Also got new OD support, TFOD jr (damn have THOSE gone up in price) Why do the smallest parts threaten to hold up a project the most?

and Townsend... the only pix I can find of the 1942414 show a coil spring similar in size to the big one in the accumulator.
and for 4728487 all I see in google search is suggested PNs that are "close" but not exactly that number.
Thanks for trying to help, I think the one I got from WIT will work. definitely heavier than the linked Ebay one.
 
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So just to complicate the issue further:

These are the Belleville springs for the A500 from the
1990-1993 Mopar Truck parts catalog.
1942414 is listed for the 90-91 with 5.2 liter engine.
4617191 is listed for the 92 with 3.9 engine.
4728487 is listed for the 93 with 3.9 engine.

4728487 was superseded back to the 4617191.

Only pictures of 1942414 on eBay are the aftermarket springs that you bought.
The picture of the 1942414 that looks like a coil spring is wrong which is not unusual for eBay listings.
It will be interesting to discover the differences between the 414 and the 191 springs.



spring2.GIF
spring.GIF
 
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I'll compare them when they get here.
I couldn't find anything on either of those other ones ANYWHERE on eBay, google, or anywhere else. Only wrong pix and suggestions for parts with PNs that were "close" (one number off somewhere within the 7 digits)
According to WIT there were 2 choices which they said we're interchangeable. 89 was the cutoff time. This one definitely looks like it'll work, looks alot more like the old one.
I've often wondered why they played with part numbers on any given part so much across auto parts in general.
And the newer ones where the dealer can't tell you anything without a vin where the aftermarket says one part fits all models for 10 years or something like that
 
There's a Youtube video from Cope Racing Transmissions that may have some useful information:

A bit rambling and he pronounces it Bellevue, but interesting to see the different shape of the base of the spring tangs. Also method of measuring play between spring and piston.
What other upgrades have you fitted? I installed the following Sonnax parts:
Manual valve 22771-09
Lube regulated pressure regulator valve 22771A-0K
Rear servo piston 22912A
Servo piston 22912-01K
Billet accumulator piston 22814-04K
Accumulator spring 12861-01
 
len dawson deception pass mopar parts shows 1 of the 1942414. $4.00
or maybe call cope or a&a might be easier.
 
Len Dawson... As in related to the KC Chiefs?

And for "HEAD IN THE CLOUDS" sounds about the same list I have.
Im doing the Transgo TFODjr which includes that manual valve, plus their TF-TV and governor plug, superior brand rear servo, billet accumulator, and I can't find them anymore but they used to have an upgrade for the front servo, can't currently find. I know they have em for the 727/518 as I just got done doing a 46RE.
As for the replacement part I asked for I'm covered on that,

Next question.
The converter I have for it is marked CR9L. I forgot the brand, it's just a plain old standard rebuilder grade. How much difference is there between it and a CR9H (hi stall version)
 
Mrrandyj I believe that's his username on moparts makes very nice billet front servo, accumulators, and rear servos. I don't use anyone else's anymore. Quality parts.
 
Question regarding belleville spring removed from the 91 Dakota with A500 transmission.
There are 8 notches on the spring.
Does yours have rounded or square cut notches?
 
The original had round, the Chinese eBay ones were square (that I threw away) the one from WIT and the pair from Mopar parts giant were exactly like original.
Next hurdle
I bought the plastic bushing driver set a few 727/A518 overhauls ago for changing out the bushings. I didn't have one that fit down into the front pump bushing on the 904/500. So I squashed the side of the new one I got when trying to install it. I have 2 more front pump bushings coming, supposed to be here tomorrow, in a Google seat surprisingly FleetPride of all places popped up with the best price of all they mostly deal with semis and that size truck. They have a location I pass at least 2x a day, but their automated site wouldn't give me that option, so I had to pay ups more to ship them than they wanted for the bushings. With shipping it came out to the same price as the next cheapest place for the same exact brand and part number ...
I have a freeze plug driver set I forgot about that just might have an adapter that will fit inside the new bushing when it gets here...

Id like to swap out the one in the neck of the front pump, getting the new one in I have covered but have to figure out how to get the old one out...

Lunch time is unfortunately over, gotta get back to work
 
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