A727 Rebuild kits redux - Rebuild kits everywhere (62-70 vs 71+)

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zijmer said:
iam wondering about the lube hole you drilled for the sprag? what purpose does it serve if you just end up covering it up with the outer cam and spring retainer? shouldent it be drilled more inboared so it would spray at the inner race and the rollers?
Click to expand...

Hi zijmer,

I got the idea from reading the "Torqueflite A-727, Transmission Handbook" written by Carl H. Munroe (ISBN: 978-1-55788-399-5). In the book Carl states that "a small hole can be drilled into the the case in the return passage from the cooler to provide more oil for the roller clutch and cams" (Aka. Sprag). Carl explains the hole should be 1/8" in Dia. and 3/4" from the inside edge of the case bore.

I though since I just installed a new bolt in unit and I had the case open why not add additional lubrication to the roller clutch :)

AlV
 
73AbodEE said:
so whats the verdict AIV , does it run and shift as great as this thread is ? lol
Click to expand...

I can only Hope lol!

I'm still building the car... I hope to have it on the road March 2015.
Wish me luck.

:)
 
AlV said:
Hi zijmer,

I got the idea from reading the "Torqueflite A-727, Transmission Handbook" written by Carl H. Munroe (ISBN: 978-1-55788-399-5). In the book Carl states that "a small hole can be drilled into the the case in the return passage from the cooler to provide more oil for the roller clutch and cams" (Aka. Sprag). Carl explains the hole should be 1/8" in Dia. and 3/4" from the inside edge of the case bore.

I though since I just installed a new bolt in unit and I had the case open why not add additional lubrication to the roller clutch :)

AlV
Click to expand...
i understand the purpose of the hole. it just looks like its covered up by the bolt in race
 
It's right by the roller offset toward the bore away from the bolt, I speculate that it squishes out from behind the race onto the roller.
 
in all my years of doing torqueflites, i have never seen sprag failure due to lack of lube. i have seen lots of inner races cut into the case though. for those we machine the case for a bearing. i got curious and went to the shop cause i have one apart. measured 3/4" in from the bore and that put the hole right under the roller spring. so when oil comes out of that hole, it would shoot through the spring and hit the backside of the drum. centrifical force may carry the oil around and flood the sprag. at best it willl splash all over. ok, but that still doesnt put oil behind the race where its needed. this mod maybe ok for a drag only car. do you realize how much oil comes out of a 1/8 hole at 40-60 psi? its wasted lube. i would rather it go to the planetarys and every thing else hanging off the mainshaft. on the next one you want to do, turn the reverse drum upside down and put the race on it. you will notice that race sits a bit higher than the drum giving a little pocket. if you were to drill a .040 hole about 6mm in from the case bore, it would pressurize this pocket and force the oil under the race where its needed.
 
zijmer said:
in all my years of doing torqueflites, i have never seen sprag failure due to lack of lube. i have seen lots of inner races cut into the case though. for those we machine the case for a bearing. i got curious and went to the shop cause i have one apart. measured 3/4" in from the bore and that put the hole right under the roller spring. so when oil comes out of that hole, it would shoot through the spring and hit the backside of the drum. centrifical force may carry the oil around and flood the sprag. at best it willl splash all over. ok, but that still doesnt put oil behind the race where its needed. this mod maybe ok for a drag only car. do you realize how much oil comes out of a 1/8 hole at 40-60 psi? its wasted lube. i would rather it go to the planetarys and every thing else hanging off the mainshaft. on the next one you want to do, turn the reverse drum upside down and put the race on it. you will notice that race sits a bit higher than the drum giving a little pocket. if you were to drill a .040 hole about 6mm in from the case bore, it would pressurize this pocket and force the oil under the race where its needed.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up...
I have another TF-727 in the garage that I plan to get on the bench in the future. When I take that apart it will give me an opportunity to look into what you've pointed out.

AlV
 
AlV said:
Well I've done it... My first build is in the books. :) Thanks for all of your advice and help!

One last question regarding the accumulator Blocker rod... I'm wondering if I should, or should not use it with the transgo tf2 kit. What do you think?

Food for thought please review the details of my final build:

My trans is set to the following spec:
1. Rear clutch pack clearance is .040
2. Front clutch clearance is .045
3. Planetary play is .025
4. Total end play clearance is .024
5. Front clutch pack increased from the 6 springs to 12
6. Front (KD) servo using both spring 45# inner/45#outer ( I have a 20# inner in inventory that can be switched in later)
7. L/R servo has the Transgo Spring and bush
8. Transgo restriction cup installed
9. Rear band adjusted to 3/8" of travel
10. Front band adjusted with small wrench to Snug then backed out 2.5 turns

Transgo TF2 setup.

Part 1:
A. Triangle did not drill
B. 1-2 shift did not drill (ball left out)
C. 2-3 shift drilled to .156 or 5/32
D. drilled to .234 0r 15/64

Part 2:
1. Re designed Manual Valve installed
2. Filed Notch halfway through manual bore
3. Drilled passage wall to increase fluid flow
4. Grind TV stem to .281 or 9/32 added yellow spring
5. Installed new shim and spring seat on PR valve, also added the new inner and outer Orange spring.
6. set PR adjustment flush against the inside edge of the spring retainer.
7. Installed new L/R Spring
8. Installed 2-3 restrictor cup


Split the Valve Body
1234184_510485279033851_129253426_n.jpg
1234961_510485289033850_1899811664_n.jpg


Remove separator plate and Drill.
1236007_510485339033845_1792075024_n.jpg


The valve body sandwich
1175174_510485392367173_552475342_n.jpg


Working on the Top half
1234498_510485409033838_1527705219_n.jpg


Before Transgo Mods
970433_510485439033835_290861426_n.jpg


After Transgo Mods
531940_510485449033834_907354442_n.jpg

59352_510485495700496_1128311539_n.jpg

1236088_510485519033827_1902664586_n.jpg

1231260_510485535700492_92604950_n.jpg

1185796_510485565700489_77426592_n.jpg


Updated Manual valve, springs and TV grind.
563525_510485585700487_720552848_n.jpg



Now I’m ready to button it up after that last hit with the Parts cleaner and compressed air.
1000954_510485619033817_457960842_n.jpg


All done and tucked away
1238002_510485639033815_910519358_n.jpg


Have a spare Stock 69 Valve Body cleaned and ready to restore back to OEM spec.
1175505_510485252367187_298690615_n.jpg



Thanks again everyone!
AlV
Click to expand...


AlV, you had some images initially with this post for the valve body mods you made per the Transgo TF2 kit. I could not find them and the old links listed here do not work. If you could repost these images so we can see them, that would be great!

These are the ones I am looking for.
Before Transgo Mods
https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/970433_510485439033835_290861426_n.jpg

After Transgo Mods
https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/r270/531940_510485449033834_907354442_n.jpg
https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/59352_510485495700496_1128311539_n.jpg
https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1236088_510485519033827_1902664586_n.jpg
https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1231260_510485535700492_92604950_n.jpg
https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1185796_510485565700489_77426592_n.jpg

Updated Manual valve, springs and TV grind.
https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/563525_510485585700487_720552848_n.jpg


I am in the final stages of my own rebuild. This is for a Big Block 78 Power Wagon, where I have spared almost no expense with the collection of parts going into this thing. I over build everything, with the intention, "It Will Never Break". In mine, I have replaced anything that was suspect, and upgraded a lot of items.

Billet Steel direct drum with 6 alto clutchs and kolenes, 9 springs
Modified 618 front 5 pinion planetary with steel splines (my stock 4 spline unit had have the splines pounded flat. Spline should look like V but looked like \|)
Bolt in sprag
new pump gears. WARNING !! Just cuz it's a new set, doesn't mean their in spec clearance wise. I order a new set, and it had more clearance than the one I was replacing. found one local that was nice and tight.
TF2 Kit
Modified servo pistons in all. had to put the space for the steel pin with a billet piston in my lathe to get the snap ring lan to become visible on the other side. Fun stuff.


Anyway, the filing of the notch has me paused at the moment for the VB modification due to the lack of pictures in the Transgo late series instruction set. That's what I wanted to see what you had done.

I also fully rebuilt the NP203 full time 4x4 transfer case. My God there's a lot of needle bearing in that thing. over 230 ! Got the last spider gear cupped thrust washers in the country in it. Week of research on that one.. I love the research..

Anyway.... Hope to see your pictures.

Richard....
 
Gumby440 said:
AlV, you had some images initially with this post for the valve body mods you made per the Transgo TF2 kit. I could not find them and the old links listed here do not work. If you could repost these images so we can see them, that would be great!

...

I am in the final stages of my own rebuild. This is for a Big Block 78 Power Wagon, where I have spared almost no expense with the collection of parts going into this thing. I over build everything, with the intention, "It Will Never Break". In mine, I have replaced anything that was suspect, and upgraded a lot of items.

Billet Steel direct drum with 6 alto clutchs and kolenes, 9 springs
Modified 618 front 5 pinion planetary with steel splines (my stock 4 spline unit had have the splines pounded flat. Spline should look like V but looked like \|)
Bolt in sprag
new pump gears. WARNING !! Just cuz it's a new set, doesn't mean their in spec clearance wise. I order a new set, and it had more clearance than the one I was replacing. found one local that was nice and tight.
TF2 Kit
Modified servo pistons in all. had to put the space for the steel pin with a billet piston in my lathe to get the snap ring lan to become visible on the other side. Fun stuff.


Anyway, the filing of the notch has me paused at the moment for the VB modification due to the lack of pictures in the Transgo late series instruction set. That's what I wanted to see what you had done.

I also fully rebuilt the NP203 full time 4x4 transfer case. My God there's a lot of needle bearing in that thing. over 230 ! Got the last spider gear cupped thrust washers in the country in it. Week of research on that one.. I love the research..

Anyway.... Hope to see your pictures.

Richard....
Click to expand...


Hi Richard
Yea, a while back a lot of my pictures got hosed from the site. Thanks To 6pk2goDemon I was able to reconstruct my resto thread which has all of the images.

Here is the book mark to the section you're interested in.
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showpost.php?p=1970197004&postcount=44

Sounds like a killer build good luck!

btw I am going to be on the road this summer and I get to see how my set performs :)
 
IRISH RT said:
Very Intresting Thread, I am just starting my First with Full Reverse Manual Valve body , Did you get it all finished and driving ?????? how did it all go
Click to expand...

73AbodEE said:
so whats the verdict AIV , does it run and shift as great as this thread is ? lol
Click to expand...


I know it has been a very long time since this thread was active but I wanted to circle back with some results.
I've been driving the car for about a month now and I'm pretty happy with the transmission.
The transmission does everything I needed it to do but I have been working out some issues and fine tuning.
Keep in mind I am running 3:91 gears in the back with 26" tires and a B&M 2400 stall converter

For starters, I have Park, R, N, 1, 2 and 3(D) using manual shifts. I can shift up and down manually through the gears.
It will shift up and down through the gears if I leave it in Drive.
The shifts are tight and firm.

Some initial results
Auto:
  • If I ease onto the throttle I get a 1-2 shift at 5-7 mph and a 2-3 shift at 12-15mph.
  • If I get on it, The shifts happen very quickly and are very close together practically on top of each other.
  • If I stomp down on the throttle at 40 mph I don't get a kick down.
Manual:
  • If I start in 1 and ease on the throttle the car will shift to 2 and stay there until I shift to 3. The 2-3 shift is firm unless I shifts early then it slams.
  • If I start in 1 and get on her it will hold a little longer in 1st allowing me to shift into 2 and it's firm.
  • I can feel the transmission shift up and down manually through the gears
I adjusted the KD linkage per the manual this is the latest 1-2, 2-3 results after the test drive.
  • Low load easing out shifts were 5 mph and 10 mph
  • Moderate load shifts were 8 mph and 15 mph
  • Hard acceleration shift were 20 mph and 30 mph
After speaking with Tom Hand (Thanks Tom!) I've come to the conclusion the the B&M 2400 stall converter is too tight for my application and worked with Chris at Continental converters to make a custom converter which I have yet to install.

I am still trying to diagnose why I can't get it to kick down from 3-2, my next step is to pick up a gauge and check the pressure.
Until then I just row the shifter by hand. It's quite fun!

AlV
 
Forgive me but I have talked to several guys about their transmission projects since you and this thread is really long to read through but is this this a stock valve body with a shift kit? If so which shift kit? also, do you have rpm specs on the shift points rather than speeds? With your low gears and short tire it's going to shift kinda early
 
fishy68 said:
Forgive me but I have talked to several guys about their transmission projects since you and this thread is really long to read through but is this this a stock valve body with a shift kit? If so which shift kit? also, do you have rpm specs on the shift points rather than speeds? With your low gears and short tire it's going to shift kinda early
Click to expand...

Sorry for the slow response been trouble shooting a bit.
I did install a TF2 Kit on the valve body. However, while it was an original valve body someone had been in it before me. So that got me thinking what would happen if I put in an original unmolested 68 date code valve body. I happened to have one in the shed so I cleaned it up and installed it. This seemed to help a tone because now I had kick down and was shifting at 1500 and 2500, I also had kick down. But everything now feels soft and mushy.
Lot's more to do. btw I did find a lot of friction material in the pan.
 
Ok. If you install the tf2 kit in it that should give you good firm shifts. The crap in the pan may have been a result of things not working correctly. In 94 i installed the only kit i could find for my 93 Dakota A518 & it overlapped bad. Was really busy at work & it took me 2 months before i had time to pull it back apart & correct it & you should have how much friction material was in the pan. It's surprising but i ran it hard for 90000 miles after that & the guy i sold it to put a bunch of hard miles on it before it bit the dust. Hope you are as lucky
 
Digging back in to the valve body.

And I'm just realizing the separator plate is stamped with B&M.

Anyone know where I can find a stock type seperator plate?

image.jpeg


image.jpeg
 
i'm going to get into a couple of early cable shifter 62-65 727's , i'm changing up the front pumps and conv's to the 66 up type . but in my read through your thread i think i read that the 71 up pump can be used with the same front drum set up . is that true , everything in the front swaps out or what ?
 
pomonamissel said:
i'm going to get into a couple of early cable shifter 62-65 727's , i'm changing up the front pumps and conv's to the 66 up type . but in my read through your thread i think i read that the 71 up pump can be used with the same front drum set up . is that true , everything in the front swaps out or what ?
Click to expand...

Hey Pomonamissle I hink you're referring to Tracy's post number 7. See snippet below)

"Basic differences, the 66-70 had a 1/2 wide reaction shaft bushing(the one that's pressed into the front clutch hub) and different reaction shaft accordingly. 71-up had a 1" wide bushing, much more stable and lasts longer. Due to more stability the reaction shaft sealing rings also last longer. 71 and up also had a revised seal in the front clutch that lasts longer and seals better. 71-up had part throttle kickdown. If it's a street car it's a nice feature because torqueflite's with a shift kit are notorious for the kickdown not working good enough. If your like me and like to manual shift most of the time it's no big deal. The part throttle kickdown is a part of the valve body. I've heard you can bolt a part throttle kickdown module to a non part throttle VB but tried on one and it wouldn't fit. There are some variance in valve bodies so maybe you can on some but not others?? Again this is just a creature comfort item, not at all necessary.

BTW: To upgrade your trans. to a 71-up style all you have to do is swap in the front clutch drum and reaction shaft from a 71-73 model. Make sure you get a drum that holds 4 clutch discs, some only held 3. If you decide to upgrade to the newer stuff any later than 73 and parts interchange is hit or miss as they revised the rear clutch drum a few times and it may interfere with the reaction shaft. You could always swap out the rear drumassy. as well if you have the money. I do this on all serious high perf. applications but lower hp daily drivers I don't worry about. "
 
aiv , so as i read this , i can use the longer bushing pump with its front drum assembly , part kick down is not an issue . and i understand that 66 - 70 uses the short type . and if mine right the earlier 62-65 used a short one as well . but the early 62-65 used a 6 rivet hub in the conv , and smaller input and pump . so i'm going to use the 66 up conv and input and pump . must it all be from a 71 up for the longer bushing pump , input shaft and conv must be 71 up as well ? and the early 62-65 have a rear pump , does that change as well ? and i understand more clutches are best , what about the 5 clutch hemi drum ? i know this maybe a pain in the r...r , but i'm trying for the best of both worlds in a typewritter cable type shifter tranny . and i must say your thread is well done . as i said i'll have several of those to do . also a couple loadflite's behind a early blown hemi one in a 48 austin gasser .

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