A833 O/D gears in an A833 1:1 ?

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DaveBonds

DaveBonds

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For the sake of getting exactly what I want, I've decided that I'm building my own transmission.

I have a set of O/D gears, gear cluster for the countershaft and 23 spline input shaft. The O/D uses a different diameter countershaft and main shaft is also different.

I know that the gear sets can be changed between O/D and 1:1, with main shafts, does this also mean that the countershaft would need changing? Brewer's lists two countershafts and two plugs. Are they different diameter, or length? They use the same spacers and thrust washers.

I don't mind machining front bearing retainers or the bellhousing, but seeing as how I'm building this thing from the ground up, I would rather just go for parts that fit.

I'd like to start looking for an iron case A body transmission, but I'd like to know what the inner diameter and depth differences are between a 307 and 308 bearing. Essentially, I'd like to change out as few parts as I can to use a standard a833 to build my gears into.
 
I am pretty sure you cannot change the gear ratios because of the countershaft.
Call Wayne at Breweres he will know for sure.
 
I'll give them a call tomorrow and see. I'll check for that thermostat wire lead, too. If it's just a diameter issue on the countershaft, a sleeve could be used in the case to correct it, unless the countershaft was in a different place entirely.

Someone else on here was doing this, a while ago with success by using the main shaft with the gears. I don't know that anything was mentioned about the countershaft, and I'm curious as well.
 
I think it has to do with the gear cut on the countershaft.
Wayne will know for sure.

Thanks for checking on the thermostat end. I think it has 10-32 threads so I might be able to put a ring terminal on it if I cannot find an end. The junkyards here crush everything if it is over 10 yrs old.
 
The countershaft cluster gears are very different in height and pitch, to match the O/D gear set on the main shaft. All of the gears would need to be changed.

I think the idea is that you can put an entire set with shafts into any case, provided it has the right bearing.

The only A833 O/D that has an iron case from memory are the late '70's pickup trucks. I'm thinking it's going to be a lot easier to just swap the gear set into any A833 iron case that uses a rear 308 thrust bearing, given all of the gears and shafts, along with the short tailhousings match.

I'm likely not going to hurt an aluminum transmission, but I'm not very interested in sleeving one and I know I can come by an iron A833 a lot easier.

The only thing I don't know about is the actual countershaft itself. They call for different countershafts and plugs, so I'm wondering what the diameter and length differences are. If the O/D trans uses a smaller diameter countershaft, I don't see why a sleeve wouldn't work in the case to correct it. The countershaft floats in an O/D, which I know is not as strong, but I'm not pushing bone crushing torque or horsepower in this car.

The other advantage I can see to doing this is to eliminate the use of a larger overdrive front bearing carrier, so no machine work will need to be done on the carrier or bell.
 
I built two A body 4 speeds using the aluminum overdrive case, side cover and extension housings for my '73 Duster I had. From cast iron case, side cover and X housing to aluminum, the weight difference was 41 pounds. The overdrive cluster pin is slightly shorter due to the plug in the front of the aluminum OD case, no problem with 4 speed guts. The first one I built I used the guts from a B body Hemi trans, but the shorter A body mainshaft and X housing. The other was a 23 spline. No difference in the pin diameter.

As far as which bearing to use, just use the bearing that fits the hole opening for the outside diameter. Big bearing case? Use the 308 sg8 bearing. The width and inside diameter is the same as the 307, but not the same as a standard 308 bearing. Same with the X housing.

Russ.
 
Sounds like your pretty passionate about making this work, good luck to you. It would be cool to see a build thread chronicling this adventure. :D
 
Double M said:
The width and inside diameter is the same as the 307, but not the same as a standard 308 bearing.
Click to expand...

This is the slice of info I was after. bearing I.D. Thank you, kind sir!

This means I can use whatever A833 I want with the O/D gear set and shafts I picked up. That's what I suspected. The machining is the same, then, with a difference in bearing O.D. Some big block trans used the 308, some didn't.

PoisonDart74 said:
Sounds like your pretty passionate about making this work, good luck to you. It would be cool to see a build thread chronicling this adventure. :D
Click to expand...

There will be.

When I sent the Scamp through the tin work, I put a 4spd hump in it from a donor car and seam sealed a sheet metal blockoff over it, covered it in molded carpet when I did the interior with this swap in mind, in the fall of 2011.

I'll get pictures of the case build, parts needed, etc. I think this would be valuable information for anyone interested in getting a bolt in O/D done for way less than other places charge.

I looked extensively at doing a T5 and bailed, because I didn't want to make an adapter from a mopar bellhousing. I looked into some Australian stuff and a few other manus locally. The cheapest one I could find was about $200 from Australia. Most of those cars got a Borg Warner T10 and they make a T10-T5/56 plate for cheap.

I also debated buying their bellhousing, because the fork is on the other side, away from the starter, for a push slave hydraulic.

I've already got most of the parts for this swap now, using the standard bell, so I'm going to run what I've got and keep accumulating parts. :)
 
Dave,

If you go the 307 bearing route (nothing wrong with that) use the max 307 bearing front and rear. My part number is M6307N. It has the max number of balls that can fit between the inner and outer races. Some say do NOT use a max bearing because the the cut of the gears, under acceleration and deceleration, you could spit a ball because of the way the bearings have a notch in the races to fit all the balls when they make them. The balls are spaced by a steel "separator" and will NOT spit out. They will if they are completely worn out, but so will any ball type bearing. Muncie's came stock with a max input bearing.

Of course, the max bearings cost more, but the "stock rebuilder bearings" don't last as long. You get what you pay for. On American 3 speeds, 4 speeds and truck trannys I don't even give my customers a choice. The max bearing is what I use, period. I want my units to last and keep customers happy.

Russ.
 
Very cool!

I hear you on quality parts. I plan on keeping my girlfriend around and as such, her car should be in tip top shape, so I'll definitely be in contact.
 
I did some reading on that, too. I'm very familiar with those transmissions. I just replaced a clutch in one, in my brother's 88GTE. Those are truck transmissions, the synchros are a little stiffer, but they are a top loader and not a bad gig for a low torque deal.

The turbo cars get away with a lot on them, because of how the turbo responds. There is no HP/TQ at launch, aside from NA power/ torque. My only issue with them was the size and shifter position.

The way to do a T5 in a simple 318 build or something under 300hp is to use the pre 1986 S10 tailshaft, housing and shifter linkage for the right speedo, mount and shifter position with the World Class Ford front, for the longer input and strength. I'd have to piece a trans together to do that and decided between that and the other conversion parts, I'd be nearly the same as starting with a New Process, only less strength and better gear ratios.

The R154 has the same pattern as the Dakota 5 speed, so that bell would work, but again, the length and mostly shifter position is what killed me on one from a Supra. They used them in some Isuzus, from my understanding, which may have changed shift location, but I don't know about the tailshaft, as it may be 4WD T case or something odd.

There are definitely some cool O/D options out there that are close to bolt up! I'm thinking that this one has the potential to be just that and have less than $1800 in a set of gears.
 
DaveBonds said:
This is the slice of info I was after. bearing I.D. Thank you, kind sir!

This means I can use whatever A833 I want with the O/D gear set and shafts I picked up. That's what I suspected. The machining is the same, then, with a difference in bearing O.D. Some big block trans used the 308, some didn't.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you already figured it out, but I figured I'd second or third.

833OD guts can be switched into any case. You have to switch them as a whole, mainshaft, countershaft, etc. But you can put 833OD gears in a cast iron 833 case, or 833 gears in an aluminum 833OD case. Just get the appropriate bearings for the case you're using and you're set.

What you can't do is mix and match gears from 833OD to 833. The internals have to be kept together. But the cases can be switched.
 
I honestly think the best 5 speed out there for Mopars would be the American Powertrain gig. I'm not going to even go into the new 855. I saw that a bit ago in Vegas, cool gear. I'd like to see it again... ever... American Powertrain is building the hell out of those World Class units and with the S10 tail, fit like a glove in these cars, without even the need for a shifter hump. They fit better than the Tremec or Getrag, no welding at all and you can use Chrysler clutch parts, so a Z bar with a Lakewood and relocated ball stud for the factory point can even work.

I basically started accumulating parts that I know I could use with any of them and then I made my decision based on fitment first, then strength and then factored in how much I'd be making of the project, myself. I can make an an adapter. One thought was to make a few adapters to fit a New Process pattern bell and sell them to offset cost, but I really just wanted an O/D, in the end.

My biggest qualm with the factory Chrysler stuff is how rigid the 3 finger clutch feels. I've driven 3 different 4 speed cars over the past year; '70 Superbee 426 hemi, '67 Sattelite 383 and another '67, Belvedere Silver Bullet look-a-like.

The Bee got the 3 finger, straight resto parts all new stuff from Brewers. Nice equipment. Worked perfectly, but everything was ultra stiff.

The Sattelite 383, we went through and rebuilt linkages. Remanned Hurst, new bushings, ball studs, cleaned up the Z bar stuff, new plastic, same story. Felt like a truck.

The Silver Bullet car got a V gate and was an Auto when it showed at the shop. Had a Lakewood scattershield and a twin disc diaphram from Centerforce that we dropped in. That clutch ditched the overcenter spring and felt ok, but that shifter was nutso. Cool for racing, but it was tricky to get in place with a bench and reverse was a ***** with the extra lever.

I'm not sure if there are any less expensive diaphragm type clutches out there. This is going to be a driver and I don't want to murder my girlfriend's left knee, who requested it and will be driving it most of the time.

I did some reading on the 7/8 master 7/8 pull slave cyl and that looks like the best route. Found a source for an inexpensive set and I like that it works with a drilled factory fork. I can't remember which length was used for drilling, it's in my computer somewhere, but it seems like the way to go. If I could combine that with a diaphragm, I don't think the pedal will be an issue.

I'm not sure how the alternating fork/ late model side plate detent feels. The detent ball side plates are a little stiff, which I have only driven ('70 and older) but I think I can live with the harder shifter detent if the clutch wasn't nuts. This car sees traffic.
 
72bluNblu said:
What you can't do is mix and match gears from 833OD to 833. The internals have to be kept together. But the cases can be switched.
Click to expand...

Right. Yeah, the countershaft cluster gear is clearly different, with the really tall gear arrangement. Main shafts are different arrangement and diameter, etc.
 
DaveBonds said:
The only A833 O/D that has an iron case from memory are the late '70's pickup trucks. I'm thinking it's going to be a lot easier to just swap the gear set into any A833 iron case that uses a rear 308 thrust bearing, given all of the gears and shafts, along with the short tailhousings match.

Ma Mopar made OD A-body 4-speed with an iron case and tail shaft.
I rebuilt one a couple of years ago from my parts stash from over 25 years ago.

I can post a crap load of pics if you need it with serial numbers on the case.
Click to expand...
 
I've never seen one. I've seen iron side cover/ aluminum, but never all iron. That's probably a really early 833 you did, like a '74-'75. Pulled one on a '75 years ago and it was alum/ iron side.

Mostly, I'd be interested in tailshaft serial number at this point.

I don't mind going aluminum on the tailshaft housing, but if an iron one works and it's the same part number as the early 30 spline out, 307 bearing units, it will open up my tailhousing options significantly.
 
Dave,supposedly some of the early 80's Chevy trucks,came with the 833od trans. Used for EPA ratings,for gas mileage. Read it in other websites,can't remember. F.Y.I.,Passion performance,does a 5 spd 833. Random info,for thought.
 
GM did use a version of the 833 OD. But the bolt pattern of the GM case to bell housing is really weird and not MOPAR. It also use a GM input shaft (10 spline clutch, GM length and pilot size).

Russ.
 
I've seen GM rebuild kits advertised on those. I wondered if they have the same bell pattern. I think someone mentioned they have a GM universal pattern (EDIT: Yeah, what Russ said!), but I wonder what the tailhousings look like. If they are 12", that could open up more possabilities for a housing.

Yeah, that A833 (they're calling it an 855) with the 5th gear from Passon looks like magic. My rich older self wishes it was available. When I was in Vegas for one of the Mopars at the Strip deals with our shop, doing promo, I walked around and saw their booth. There have been a few posts on here recently about folks having a hard time even getting the advertised 18 spline close ratio 4 speed O/D from them. Someone paid up for a complete trans and got zilch for 6 months and got a refund, recently.

They want $1800 for the close ratio/ hemi ratio W O/D drop in 4spd gears, which does the same thing, except they use 1:1 main and countershafts that all the standard 833's use. Wicked idea, but at that price, I could have everything I needed and enough dough to take it and a carload of friends on a break in road trip.

Makes me wonder what the hell happened to hotrodding, these days? Unless you have a CNC or toilet paper rolls in your bathroom made from US currency, it's forgotten. Nobody eyeballs stuff anymore. I love seeing old magazine articles posted like the one above in that other thread that I dug around for.

Vast appreciation for those who experiment!
 
Thanks for the idea on the GM stuff. It may be a shot in the dark, but I'm going to look at the tailshaft housings!

If anyone has a used 4spd white shift ball, I need one for my pinball machine.
 
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