Advice: Solid Roller or Hydraulic Roller for street car

-
Based on the earlier thread, I’d agree that a whiplash cam, accompanied by either updating/mildly reworking the stock heads or putting some SM’s on it would be a decent move towards the original goals.

Be nice to know exactly what those “stock gears” are.
I’d want to have at least a set of 3.23’s out back if it gets any type of hot rod cam.
 
If I was the OP and sticking with 318, 9-9.5:1 cr, headers, rpm intake, 650, 215 to 225 cam with speedmaster or edelbrock heads and at least 3.55 gears and 2800 stall.
 
I believe the choice between solid and hydraulic lifters is chosen by rpm range. Higher reving small blocks certainly benefit more with a solid lifter and cam setup. 6500 rpm is the max threshold. A heavily stroked big block's street setup is very likely under that rpm maximum. Thus the self adjustment and less maintenance of a hydraulic lifter setup makes perfect sense. But a screaming small block? I would go solid. All day. (If I remember right. The Super Commando 273 came with solid lifters just for that purpose. In that example. The factory made the decision for you.)

JMO
 
Last edited:
You guys are amazing… thanks for all the valuable feedback. As a total novice when it comes to this stuff, i just don’t want to buy a hydraulic roller set up then wished I’d went solid… or vice versa. As you can see from some of my earlier posts I’ve been researching heads for a while now.. I’ve done the mental exercise of what magnum heads would entail, 302’s, EQ’s, my old 587’s, Speedmasters, and finally came around to Trickflows. I’m pretty set on keeping the 318. I do like the idea of a high revving small block. I’m sure eventually I’ll build the bottom end, but for now I want to run what I got…I’ve stumbled across a few 318’s with stock bottom end/trickflow heads that are making impressive power, using solid roller. This is one: https://youtu.be/o_rGgaJ169U?si=E6TO_GF89QVspGZl I know he’s since done a full build but I would love a 318 running 7’s in the 1/8th (mid-high 11’s in the 1/4), which I believe is probably around 400 hp.

A brief overview of what mine has for anyone that wants to know: 1406 4 barrel Edelbrock Carb, Weiand Stealth intake manifold, Dougs D453 headers, 2.5” duals all the way back with H pipe… Stock 2.76 granny gears at the moment. Currently very mild.

The car feels “peppy” but not fast by any means. My butt dyno believes my current set up might be around 190 at the wheels… pretty laughable. I know heads and gears are holding me back quite a bit at the moment, so those are the 2 things I’m taking care of asap, but due to budget it’s one thing at a time…
 
Shane65 said:
You guys are amazing… thanks for all the valuable feedback. As a total novice when it comes to this stuff, i just don’t want to buy a hydraulic roller set up then wished I’d went solid… or vice versa. As you can see from some of my earlier posts I’ve been researching heads for a while now.. I’ve done the mental exercise of what magnum heads would entail, 302’s, EQ’s, my old 587’s, Speedmasters, and finally came around to Trickflows. I’m pretty set on keeping the 318. I do like the idea of a high revving small block. I’m sure eventually I’ll build the bottom end, but for now I want to run what I got…I’ve stumbled across a few 318’s with stock bottom end/trickflow heads that are making impressive power, using solid roller. This is one: https://youtu.be/o_rGgaJ169U?si=E6TO_GF89QVspGZl I know he’s since done a full build but I would love a 318 running 7’s in the 1/8th (mid-high 11’s in the 1/4), which I believe is probably around 400 hp.

A brief overview of what mine has for anyone that wants to know: 1406 4 barrel Edelbrock Carb, Weiand Stealth intake manifold, Dougs D453 headers, 2.5” duals all the way back with H pipe… Stock 2.76 granny gears at the moment. Currently very mild.

The car feels “peppy” but not fast by any means. My butt dyno believes my current set up might be around 190 at the wheels… pretty laughable. I know heads and gears are holding me back quite a bit at the moment, so those are the 2 things I’m taking care of asap, but due to budget it’s one thing at a time…
Click to expand...

I'd find a good-running 5.2L Magnum short block to swap in, an early one with the oil passages drilled for shaft rocker oiling so you can run LA-based heads and rocker arms. You can then also reuse the stock Magnum hydraulic roller lifters which will save a good bit of money and likely be more reliable than an aftermarket set.

Trick Flows might be overkill to an extent but the price isn't bad, similar to Edelbrock RPMs which I would NOT run OOTB. The TFS heads are ready-to-run though which is hard to find with aftermarket Mopar cylinder heads of any variety.
 
Shane65 said:
You guys are amazing… thanks for all the valuable feedback. As a total novice when it comes to this stuff, i just don’t want to buy a hydraulic roller set up then wished I’d went solid… or vice versa. As you can see from some of my earlier posts I’ve been researching heads for a while now.. I’ve done the mental exercise of what magnum heads would entail, 302’s, EQ’s, my old 587’s, Speedmasters, and finally came around to Trickflows. I’m pretty set on keeping the 318. I do like the idea of a high revving small block. I’m sure eventually I’ll build the bottom end, but for now I want to run what I got…I’ve stumbled across a few 318’s with stock bottom end/trickflow heads that are making impressive power, using solid roller. This is one: https://youtu.be/o_rGgaJ169U?si=E6TO_GF89QVspGZl I know he’s since done a full build but I would love a 318 running 7’s in the 1/8th (mid-high 11’s in the 1/4), which I believe is probably around 400 hp.

A brief overview of what mine has for anyone that wants to know: 1406 4 barrel Edelbrock Carb, Weiand Stealth intake manifold, Dougs D453 headers, 2.5” duals all the way back with H pipe… Stock 2.76 granny gears at the moment. Currently very mild.

The car feels “peppy” but not fast by any means. My butt dyno believes my current set up might be around 190 at the wheels… pretty laughable. I know heads and gears are holding me back quite a bit at the moment, so those are the 2 things I’m taking care of asap, but due to budget it’s one thing at a time…
Click to expand...
you are doing almost exactly what i'm doing... already got the trickflows and motor bits.. putting it together soon... also make sure to get the .028 compressed head gaskets.. more compression won't suck :)
 
Shane65 said:
You guys are amazing… thanks for all the valuable feedback. As a total novice when it comes to this stuff, i just don’t want to buy a hydraulic roller set up then wished I’d went solid… or vice versa. As you can see from some of my earlier posts I’ve been researching heads for a while now.. I’ve done the mental exercise of what magnum heads would entail, 302’s, EQ’s, my old 587’s, Speedmasters, and finally came around to Trickflows. I’m pretty set on keeping the 318. I do like the idea of a high revving small block. I’m sure eventually I’ll build the bottom end, but for now I want to run what I got…I’ve stumbled across a few 318’s with stock bottom end/trickflow heads that are making impressive power, using solid roller. This is one: https://youtu.be/o_rGgaJ169U?si=E6TO_GF89QVspGZl I know he’s since done a full build but I would love a 318 running 7’s in the 1/8th (mid-high 11’s in the 1/4), which I believe is probably around 400 hp.

A brief overview of what mine has for anyone that wants to know: 1406 4 barrel Edelbrock Carb, Weiand Stealth intake manifold, Dougs D453 headers, 2.5” duals all the way back with H pipe… Stock 2.76 granny gears at the moment. Currently very mild.

The car feels “peppy” but not fast by any means. My butt dyno believes my current set up might be around 190 at the wheels… pretty laughable. I know heads and gears are holding me back quite a bit at the moment, so those are the 2 things I’m taking care of asap, but due to budget it’s one thing at a time…
Click to expand...
1 st What rear gears you willing to run?
Ideally you want to be able to get into the powerband at average road speeds, eg.. drop it into 2nd around 30-60 mph and mash the go pedal.

2.76 in 2nd @ 30 mph = 1550 rpm, 45 mph = 2325 rpm, 60 mph = 3100 rpm
3.55 in 2nd @ 30 mph = 2000 rpm, 45 mph = 3000 rpm, 60 mph = 4000 rpm
4.56 in 2nd @ 30 mph = 2550 rpm, 45 mph = 3825 rpm, 60 mph = 5100 rpm
plus stall and slippage factors in.

Main powerband is usually around 2000-3000 rpm Stall to Shift points.

2nd what is high revving? a 400 ish hp 318 peaks about 5900-6200 rpm, shifting around 500 rpms higher and peak tq should be around 4500 rpms, which is even higher than 4.56 @ 50 mph.

3rd what size cam you thinking? Is gonna be the crucial pick to make all this work.
 
Last edited:
Icetech said:
you are doing almost exactly what i'm doing... already got the trickflows and motor bits.. putting it together soon... also make sure to get the .028 compressed head gaskets.. more compression won't suck :)
Click to expand...
Are you running on a stock block? What year? Are you going with solid roller or hyrdraulic?
 
Shane65 said:
Are you running on a stock block? What year? Are you going with solid roller or hyrdraulic?
Click to expand...
stock 1995 roller block.. i'm going roller, i would prefer solid cause i like the ticky ticky and don't mind lashing valves :) But i am hydraulic howards roller 225/225 (i think).. the reason being is, i can run the OEM roller lifters and i trust them more than any affordable aftermarket ones..
 
AJ/FormS said:
3500 miles in 52 weeks, points to 67 miles a week, or 9.6miles a day. That's like two spins around the block here where I live. Not sure that's even worth spending money on the 318 for.
My take is;
put a 4bbl on it, dual exhaust, a 2800 convertor, a 3.91/4.10posi in the back, and call it done. Yur gonna end up here or close to here, anyway, so you might as well start here. Who knows, maybe this will satisfy your craving.
Click to expand...

:poke:

1690668980004.png
 
If I was to build a TF 318, I'd shoot for to make around 1.25 to 1.35 lbs-ft per cid preferably above 1.3, and peak power around 6500 to 7000 rpm, eg. halfway equals , 1.3 lbs-ft = 420 lbs-ft and peak hp @ 6750 rpm is about 490 hp, 1.3 lbs-ft is fairly high and should make good tq curve even fairly low down in rpms, add a good stall and deep gears.
 
273 said:
Protecting others from my way off base opinions again keep up the good work lol :)
Click to expand...
Well, I’d just say IF someone took your post to the far side, my comment I made above it to the OP was just a limitation of what the engine would do dispute the head used. I’m not going to argue or counter your post because I think it was correct in its wording.

Others here already know the wife’s engine combo and I had OOTB Edel heads on it, CNC’d Promaxx on top and then the TF’s.
TF’s all the way even with that mild cam we’re the clear HP maker.

IF a big word there in my junk pile of parts- but…

IF I was starting from scratch again, right now, it would nothing but a TF head up top in my street builds. IMO, I really think it’s the best street head out there. Freiburger and Dulcich who said it first, and absolutely nailed it, “Afford yourself the best cylinder head you can for your build.”
 
3.55 gears* and a converter will be the best bang for the buck on the current set up. it would be a totally different car.

i'd do that first. might find that's just what you were looking for.

but if not, that stuff will compliment any future endeavors motor wise.

anyway, you're not running mid 11's with bolting on a set of heads and throwing a cam at it. you're going to have to build a bottom end with some compression to get there-- hence everybody saying to ditch the teen and boogie down with a magnum.

you seem set on the roller cam, and far be it from me to tell somebody else how to spend their money. but if you're going that route, then pivoting to a magnum will help absorb a lot of associated costs in that it's already a roller motor and the valve train is set up for it.

personally, i'd do the gears and converter so that i can run around and enjoy the car while building a motor on the side.

*3.90 gears would be okay too, it's not like you're commuting in it.
 
rumblefish360 said:
Well, I’d just say IF someone took your post to the far side, my comment I made above it to the OP was just a limitation of what the engine would do dispute the head used. I’m not going to argue or counter your post because I think it was correct in its wording.
Click to expand...
I'm just joking around with ya :)
rumblefish360 said:
Others here already know the wife’s engine combo and I had OOTB Edel heads on it, CNC’d Promaxx on top and then the TF’s.
TF’s all the way even with that mild cam we’re the clear HP maker.

IF a big word there in my junk pile of parts- but…

IF I was starting from scratch again, right now, it would nothing but a TF head up top in my street builds. IMO, I really think it’s the best street head out there. Freiburger and Dulcich who said it first, and absolutely nailed it, “Afford yourself the best cylinder head you can for your build.”
Click to expand...
I agree it would be hard to justify buying edlebrocks or similar priced heads over TF.

To me speedmaster if still cheap are a good stock replacement head.
 
273 said:
I agree it would be hard to justify buying edlebrocks or similar priced heads over TF.
Click to expand...

On one hand, the price is pricey and because of the name and specs everyone knows, the head gets elevated up and is deemed overkill with a list of items not meeting that person’s expectations.
(That person viewing the head/engine, not the owner.)
The slew of questions start up;

Question(s) ———————— Questionsrs Reply
What’s the compression ratio —— not enough
What cam, ———— not enough/wrong cam
Why that intake —- wrong intake
Etc… it’s all a load of crap.

Reality, what ever you’re happy with, use and duck the rest.
All things considered, (and years back) I somewhat championed the oem iron head to a degree. Think about it! If a OEM head can run in the 10’s, then why does everyone have this big “Must/Have/Need” of an aluminum head on there street driven car? It’s even more hilarious when the car never or rarely ever is at the track.
273 said:
To me speedmaster if still cheap are a good stock replacement head.
Click to expand...
It would be worth looking into.
 
273 said:
If I was to build a TF 318, I'd shoot for to make around 1.25 to 1.35 lbs-ft per cid preferably above 1.3, and peak power around 6500 to 7000 rpm, eg. halfway equals , 1.3 lbs-ft = 420 lbs-ft and peak hp @ 6750 rpm is about 490 hp, 1.3 lbs-ft is fairly high and should make good tq curve even fairly low down in rpms, add a good stall and deep gears.
Click to expand...
Interesting…What would be your recipe to do that?
 
This is similar to what I'd want out of a good 318, 477 hp @ 6500 rpm, 427 tq @ 4900-5200 rpm which is 1.32 tq per cid, shouldn't be hard to build similar with a TF top 318.

Most would be happy if their 318 made the power this one does under 5000 rpm, outside it's main powerband nevermind above.

Iron-Headed Mopar 318 Magnum Engine- Popular Hot Rodding Magazine

On The Dyno DTS Dyno Data Performance Crankshaft 323CI Small-Block Mopar
RPMTQHP
2,500337161
2,600350173
2,700357183
2,800357190
2,900356196
3,000351201
3,100345204
3,200339207
3,300343216
3,400356230
3,500371247
3,600385264
3,700396279
3,800404292
3,900410305
4,000415316
4,100418327
4,200420336
4,300422345
4,400421353
4,500420360
4,600421369
4,700425380
4,800426390
4,900427398
5,000427407
5,100427414
5,200426421
5,300425428
5,400423435
5,500421440
5,600419446
5,700417453
5,800415458
5,900412462
6,000407465
6,100401466
6,200397469
6,300393471
6,400390475
6,500386477
 
Last edited:
With 2.76 gears, just about any normally-aspirated 318 combo will suck as compared to the same engine with hi3/low4 series gears. And with low compression, she needs a higher stall to get up to where the power is, in First gear; else she be a dog down low. And a wide LSA kills low-rpm power and just try and find a tight LSA roller cam.
IMO, leaving the the Dcr in the basement is just a very bad idea.
those 2.76 gears HAVE to go.

Even a stock smog-era teener wakes up with 3.91/4.10s.
and every time I put a 2800 on one, even with just 3.55s, it really wakes up first gear.
If yur not tracking it, it's a two-gear car, so who cares how much power it has at 7000 rpm.
With 4.10s, a 2800 stall, and 255tires back there, even stock, it's more than likely gonna spin right thru first gear, and maybe even with a 2bbl, so all this HO talk is just a lotta hot-air
Do the math; Top of Second gear @65mph with 27"tires is about
5300 with 4.10s; and
5050 with 3.91s, and
3460 with 2.76s
Even if your 318 only makes 318 ftlbs at 2800, this translates to
318 x 2.45 x 3.91 x 1.8 TC-ratio, so I get, up to 5480 ftlbs available at take off, diminishing to say
300 x 2.45 x 3.91 x say 1.4TC =4020ftlbs at say 4800
which should still be enough to keep the tires on fire at WOT. This is still only 275hp at 4800............@ 40mph in First gear, lol.
So what will 400 hp do for you at 40 mph that 275 can't already do?
Answer; wear the tires out quicker.
 
I haven't read all the replies, so somebody else may have covered this. With sol lifters, you can never get:
-lifter pump up
-bent valves from lifter pump up
-ticking noise because lifter are bleeding down
-bent p'rods from the above


With a sol lifter cam, you have some ability to vary the lash slightly to experiment with idle quality.
 
AJ/FormS said:
With 2.76 gears, just about any normally-aspirated 318 combo will suck as compared to the same engine with hi3/low4 series gears. And with low compression, she needs a higher stall to get up to where the power is, in First gear; else she be a dog down low. And a wide LSA kills low-rpm power and just try and find a tight LSA roller cam.
IMO, leaving the the Dcr in the basement is just a very bad idea.
those 2.76 gears HAVE to go.

Even a stock smog-era teener wakes up with 3.91/4.10s.
and every time I put a 2800 on one, even with just 3.55s, it really wakes up first gear.
If yur not tracking it, it's a two-gear car, so who cares how much power it has at 7000 rpm.
With 4.10s, a 2800 stall, and 255tires back there, even stock, it's more than likely gonna spin right thru first gear, and maybe even with a 2bbl, so all this HO talk is just a lotta hot-air
Do the math; Top of Second gear @65mph with 27"tires is about
5300 with 4.10s; and
5050 with 3.91s, and
3460 with 2.76s
Even if your 318 only makes 318 ftlbs at 2800, this translates to
318 x 2.45 x 3.91 x 1.8 TC-ratio, so I get, up to 5480 ftlbs available at take off, diminishing to say
300 x 2.45 x 3.91 x say 1.4TC =4020ftlbs at say 4800
which should still be enough to keep the tires on fire at WOT. This is still only 275hp at 4800............@ 40mph in First gear, lol.
So what will 400 hp do for you at 40 mph that 275 can't already do?
Answer; wear the tires out quicker.
Click to expand...
Facts ^^^^^^^
 
Bewy said:
I haven't read all the replies, so somebody else may have covered this. With sol lifters, you can never get:
-lifter pump up
-bent valves from lifter pump up
-ticking noise because lifter are bleeding down
-bent p'rods from the above
With a sol lifter cam, you have some ability to vary the lash slightly to experiment with idle quality.
Click to expand...
While true, I doubt he’ll have these problems with a mild street engine, but I never say never. Just doubtful, very.

What I would say is the factory Hyd. lifter is a heavy item and show’s limitations vs a solid lifter. This is the real caveat. I’m running the factory lifters now on the wife’s roller 360.

Once she gets bored of the power….. then a larger solid roller will take its place.

The few things that are nice of the solid roller (probably mentioned earlier I’m sure) are good pluses with my favorite one being the ability to RPM higher. Just give it the ability to breathe and it’ll go.


OP - @autoxcuda runs a small solid in his car and he’ll tell you. He’s in the car a bunch. I like his combo.
 
If I were the OP, I'd be looking for a Magnum 5.2 or 5.9, he could probably pick up a decent engine for the costs of a solid roller set up.
 
With the right cam and those heads you could easily get in the 500 hp range. Everyone here is gonna have their own opinions. The good thing is most of these are correct answers. There's a lot of ways to build a street ripper. And the factory sbm short block in good running order can take that all day long just stay out of detonation.

Think about the LS crowd. Lots of 5.3 screamers out there with good heads making north of 500hp. Most of those guys will be running a hydraulic roller. Same recipes apply to the 318. The trickflows are damn good ootb and can get you there with your 5.2. One thing I don't know is would you run into valve clearance issues with the larger valves on the small bore. Others here can answer that.

The other factor you will have to think about is available piston to valve clearance with the short block you've got.

If it were me and my money, it would be a solid roller with street oriented lobe profiles. That's the direction I'm going with my build. If there were good retrofit hyd roller lifters out there it wouldn't be so cut and dry, but I've seen a lot of issues with those lifters and would worry about that route.
 
Shane65 said:
You guys are amazing… thanks for all the valuable feedback. As a total novice when it comes to this stuff, i just don’t want to buy a hydraulic roller set up then wished I’d went solid… or vice versa. As you can see from some of my earlier posts I’ve been researching heads for a while now.. I’ve done the mental exercise of what magnum heads would entail, 302’s, EQ’s, my old 587’s, Speedmasters, and finally came around to Trickflows. I’m pretty set on keeping the 318. I do like the idea of a high revving small block. I’m sure eventually I’ll build the bottom end, but for now I want to run what I got…I’ve stumbled across a few 318’s with stock bottom end/trickflow heads that are making impressive power, using solid roller. This is one: https://youtu.be/o_rGgaJ169U?si=E6TO_GF89QVspGZl I know he’s since done a full build but I would love a 318 running 7’s in the 1/8th (mid-high 11’s in the 1/4), which I believe is probably around 400 hp.

A brief overview of what mine has for anyone that wants to know: 1406 4 barrel Edelbrock Carb, Weiand Stealth intake manifold, Dougs D453 headers, 2.5” duals all the way back with H pipe… Stock 2.76 granny gears at the moment. Currently very mild.

The car feels “peppy” but not fast by any means. My butt dyno believes my current set up might be around 190 at the wheels… pretty laughable. I know heads and gears are holding me back quite a bit at the moment, so those are the 2 things I’m taking care of asap, but due to budget it’s one thing at a time…
Click to expand...
Are you keeping the 318 because you want 318 cubic inches? Or because it's what you already have a 318? Because you want to keep the original motor? Or is it for some other reason or combination of reasons? Just trying to get a feel for what you want and why.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top