Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
The shocks do NOT carry the weight of the car. You need to correct that thinking and then you may understand why bolt on shock towers may be a better option, and certainly are no reason not to buy a product.
Alterkation or K1?
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The shocks do NOT carry the weight of the car. You need to correct that thinking and then you may understand why bolt on shock towers may be a better option, and certainly are no reason not to buy a product.
Ok. Maybe I am misunderstanding. I thought if torsion bars aren’t being used like in coilover conversions then the shock towers take that load. That’s why we all hate on the MagnumForce gear. It mounts the shocks into the inner fender which is the worst spot.
Please inform me. I truly want to learn as much as I can about suspension dynamics.
Ok. I lied. Again. I just couldn't leave it alone. IMO... First thing is a properly located rack using actual street car tie rod end (HDK) as opposed to spherical rod end SPACED with a long bolt attaching it. Think about "shear" force.
Next, look at how the HDK crossmember has a nice smooth bend and is not crushed in. Also HDK has laser cut mounting brackets slipped over and welded to attach to frame rails and motor mounts as opposed to tubing angle cut and butt welded.
Next, look at how the HDK crossmember has a nice smooth bend and is not crushed in. Also HDK has laser cut mounting brackets slipped over and welded to attach to frame rails and motor mounts as opposed to tubing angle cut and butt welded.
And here we go again.
This whole thing is fairly simple. Coil overs are not magic, they are a spring and a shock. All the conversions out there use Mustang II spindles and geometry for the most part, but there are some changes in geometry with frame mounting width. MII geometry is not inherently better than the torsion bar suspension geometry, both have their pros and cons.
So if you take the geometry out of the picture (and I do), what do you have left for the coilover conversions? A rack and pinion, which feels more modern but doesn’t actually improve performance. More room for headers, definitely. But, there’s still a pretty limited number of headers that will fit the car. Install is easier, but unless you’re pulling your engine all the time that’s a once in a while problem. A small weight savings. I have the numbers, they’re posted here, but it’s less than 50 lbs like to like (as in, not comparing power steering to manual).
There was a time when you couldn’t get off the shelf, adjustable shocks that would be good for the torsion bars. That time has psssed, and there’s no advantage to having coilovers for that reason anymore. There are quite a few great choices for shocks and adjustable shocks that will work with whatever torsion bars you choose.
And finally, price. The price is no where near the same if you can intelligently make a list of parts instead of blindly buying a Hotchkis TVS and then filling in the gaps. These prices are a little over a year old, but I would assume that it’s all gone up fairly equally. I’m leaving brakes out, brake kit prices are fairly similar as well so it’s easier to leave them out of the comparison. Same for chassis work, realisticly you’re going to do some of that either way.
RMS Alterkation w/engine mounts and without brakes - $4,995
RMS Street Lynx - $1,995
Total: $6,990 (keep in mind this doesn't include installing the street lynx, which takes welding)
This is everything I have on my Duster. It's not the cheapest way to do it, although it's not the most expensive either (ie, complete Hotchkis TVS).
Front:
1.12" torsion bars from Firm Feel: $355
Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA's:$395
Bergman Autocraft Delrin LCA bushings: $80
Firm Feel greaseable LCA pins: $135
Howe Racing upper ball joints: $130
Proforged lower ball joints:$80
QA1 LCA's: $395
Hotchkis Shocks: $475
Hellwig 55905 front bar: $175
Flaming River 16:1 steering box: $610
QA1 tie rod sleeves: $50
Proforged tie rods (all): $65
Moog pitman and idler arms: $80
Adjustable PST strut rods:$300
Rear:
Hellwig 6908 rear bar: $180 (this is the Ebody bar I run with my B-body rear axle)
AFCO 20231M springs: $320
AFCO leaf spring sliders: $200
Dr. Diff 1/2" spring offset:$150
Leaf spring perches: $15
Front suspension: 3,325
Rear suspension total: 865
Total: $4,190
So, not even close on the price. $2,800 in savings, and I used most of the most expensive options out there for my car. You can do it far cheaper than that by boxing your stock LCA's, using regular upper ball joints, getting PST 1.03" bars, using a PST manual steering box, running Bilsteins instead of hotchkis shocks, etc. Just those by themselves drop over $1k from the total. So the idea that the torsion bar suspension will cost just as much to modernize is BS, you can do suspension for the entire car and still be almost a thousand bucks ahead compared to just the AlterKation in the front.
Honestly, I don’t care what other people run. Make your choices, spend your money. But from a suspension geometry standpoint, a coilover conversion is not better, just different. From a cost standpoint, it’s not better. You get a rack and pinion, and more header clearance. You give up a lower center of gravity and a suspension that was designed to work with the chassis you have, and that last one is not a small deal. You either modify with aftermarket parts the suspension intended for a Dart, or you modify with aftermarket parts the suspension designed for a Pinto.
This whole thing is fairly simple. Coil overs are not magic, they are a spring and a shock. All the conversions out there use Mustang II spindles and geometry for the most part, but there are some changes in geometry with frame mounting width. MII geometry is not inherently better than the torsion bar suspension geometry, both have their pros and cons.
So if you take the geometry out of the picture (and I do), what do you have left for the coilover conversions? A rack and pinion, which feels more modern but doesn’t actually improve performance. More room for headers, definitely. But, there’s still a pretty limited number of headers that will fit the car. Install is easier, but unless you’re pulling your engine all the time that’s a once in a while problem. A small weight savings. I have the numbers, they’re posted here, but it’s less than 50 lbs like to like (as in, not comparing power steering to manual).
There was a time when you couldn’t get off the shelf, adjustable shocks that would be good for the torsion bars. That time has psssed, and there’s no advantage to having coilovers for that reason anymore. There are quite a few great choices for shocks and adjustable shocks that will work with whatever torsion bars you choose.
And finally, price. The price is no where near the same if you can intelligently make a list of parts instead of blindly buying a Hotchkis TVS and then filling in the gaps. These prices are a little over a year old, but I would assume that it’s all gone up fairly equally. I’m leaving brakes out, brake kit prices are fairly similar as well so it’s easier to leave them out of the comparison. Same for chassis work, realisticly you’re going to do some of that either way.
RMS Alterkation w/engine mounts and without brakes - $4,995
RMS Street Lynx - $1,995
Total: $6,990 (keep in mind this doesn't include installing the street lynx, which takes welding)
This is everything I have on my Duster. It's not the cheapest way to do it, although it's not the most expensive either (ie, complete Hotchkis TVS).
Front:
1.12" torsion bars from Firm Feel: $355
Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA's:$395
Bergman Autocraft Delrin LCA bushings: $80
Firm Feel greaseable LCA pins: $135
Howe Racing upper ball joints: $130
Proforged lower ball joints:$80
QA1 LCA's: $395
Hotchkis Shocks: $475
Hellwig 55905 front bar: $175
Flaming River 16:1 steering box: $610
QA1 tie rod sleeves: $50
Proforged tie rods (all): $65
Moog pitman and idler arms: $80
Adjustable PST strut rods:$300
Rear:
Hellwig 6908 rear bar: $180 (this is the Ebody bar I run with my B-body rear axle)
AFCO 20231M springs: $320
AFCO leaf spring sliders: $200
Dr. Diff 1/2" spring offset:$150
Leaf spring perches: $15
Front suspension: 3,325
Rear suspension total: 865
Total: $4,190
So, not even close on the price. $2,800 in savings, and I used most of the most expensive options out there for my car. You can do it far cheaper than that by boxing your stock LCA's, using regular upper ball joints, getting PST 1.03" bars, using a PST manual steering box, running Bilsteins instead of hotchkis shocks, etc. Just those by themselves drop over $1k from the total. So the idea that the torsion bar suspension will cost just as much to modernize is BS, you can do suspension for the entire car and still be almost a thousand bucks ahead compared to just the AlterKation in the front.
Honestly, I don’t care what other people run. Make your choices, spend your money. But from a suspension geometry standpoint, a coilover conversion is not better, just different. From a cost standpoint, it’s not better. You get a rack and pinion, and more header clearance. You give up a lower center of gravity and a suspension that was designed to work with the chassis you have, and that last one is not a small deal. You either modify with aftermarket parts the suspension intended for a Dart, or you modify with aftermarket parts the suspension designed for a Pinto.
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Jim Lusk
Well-Known Member
My son's Barracuda had an ALL iron 383 except the intake...Next engine will be a 400-based stroker...
Jim Lusk
Well-Known Member
That's pretty much it...
I went with a RMS front suspension and a power rack. Header fitment is a dream once you get rid of the torsion bars. Just my 2 cents.
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Well I have went all in on HDK front end and simply love it. Plus during install me not being the best mechanic on the planet I called for some tech support and Denny talked to me until I was square. I loved the fact the owner picks up the phone and provides that level of customer service. And as a metal fabricator all of my life I can be super critical on the quality aspect of welding. HDK provided me with both an outstanding product and great service, and my A body can hang in a corner with ease. Not sure how it compares with others on cost but I would do the exact same thing again. Just my .02
If you can build an engine that holds together and buy gaskets that don't leak, who cares about header clearance? If you are some hack that has to keep pulling the engine out to fix what you did wrong, maybe a coil-over setup is quite appealing to you.
I like headers on an engine. But my first 73 Dart Sport already had headers with clearance dents and beat up bottom tubes. I decided to get some nice, expensive, for that time, Hooker Competition headers. Well, they fit but also needed to be dented for steering clearance and, they rattled against the frame. My search for stock manifolds began. Found some, installed them along with factory style pipes, and that was that.
Well it’s like assholes everyone has one.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
actually there is a break down of the two around this site somewhere.. the prices are much closer to each other then that if you want a more apples to apples comparison when complete.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
bill was the owner of bigblockdart.com.
You are being disingenuous by adding the cost of the Street Lynx rear suspension in with the cost of the Alter-k-tion to compare it to you deflated prices in your parts prices.
The cost of an apples to apples / OE type suspension to Alter-K-tion is a difference of hundreds.
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Price with 1.25" bars and steering - $5,515 not $4190
Not included is a bunch of shipping charge on at least 15 individual items $$$
You only pay one shipping bill when you buy a complete system.
@72bluNblu
*This is an updated price of all your stuff on your list that you keep referring to.
And you add in the price of the RMS rear suspension to compare it with the cost of an OE rebuild.
Right now the Alter-k-tion is $4295 not $6995.
AlterKtion Coil-Over System, Street/Strip, 67-76 A-body, 340/360 Mounts
Not included is a bunch of shipping charge on at least 15 individual items $$$
You only pay one shipping bill when you buy a complete system.
@72bluNblu
*This is an updated price of all your stuff on your list that you keep referring to.
And you add in the price of the RMS rear suspension to compare it with the cost of an OE rebuild.
Right now the Alter-k-tion is $4295 not $6995.
AlterKtion Coil-Over System, Street/Strip, 67-76 A-body, 340/360 Mounts
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NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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And still to this day, the fastest, best handling mopars are still on torsion bars. Coilover conversions are designed to remove cash from people's wallets who dont have a clue what real handling is
@72bluNblu
Post #20
Alterkation question. .....
You’re busted on your deflated price list and addition of a RMS rear suspension to the costs in this thread from a couple of months ago.
Post #20
Alterkation question. .....
You’re busted on your deflated price list and addition of a RMS rear suspension to the costs in this thread from a couple of months ago.
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I went all in on the torsion bar system for the Valiant build I am working on right now. I am playing both sides because I love my Alter-k-tion. However, when it comes to talking about the cost of a full tilt torsion bar build some people are straight up liars.
You can argue all day about attributes and advantages of each one and I’ll probably agree with both sides. You are right about the fastest Mopars having torsion bars. That’s why I went with them on this build. The coilover kits have some great attributes though.
To LIE though? To add in the cost of a rear suspension to spread the cost gap? To use prices from years before this ridiculous inflation we have now? To ignore that buying a suspension piece meal is going to carry with it ridiculous shipping charges? It actually gets me upset. And he says he doesn’t care. Sure does do a lot of lying for someone who is indifferent.
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abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
Man I wish I could find the thread that I listed everything and it's prices to do a torsion bar suspension. It was a damn accurate list and pricing at the time. My stupid *** should have bookmarked it.
Christ, man....let it go. Posting over and over only makes you look like a bully.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
found it.. they were talking about the hotchkis kit.
this is from 2018. prices have gone up quite a bit since then..
TVS kit $2100 TVS (Total Vehicle Suspension) System 1973-1976 Dodge A-Body
Torsion bars $239 but this site gets discount 1.03" Torsion Bar - A Body
front end kit $359 assuming you are running 73-up disc brakes. also discounted through this site. Original Performance Super Front End Kit
shocks $435 but again can be discounted through site. may also want to upgrade to even better shocks but are more expensive. Bilstein High Performance Shock Set - Front & Rear
steering box $836 Bergman Auto Craft - Home of the Modern Muscle Car
up to $3959 (without site discounts) already and that doesn't include a brake kit, bearings, brake hoses and the other lil **** you'll end up needing by the time you are done... at this point its not near as much cheaper then an alter-k as many make it seem.. some upgrades you may consider during the process fox shocks(not sure on the price but more expensive then what i posted above) and adjustable strut rods think rms has them for $249 (pst sells rms strut rods with a pst decal on it)... so now you are over 4K for a stock style suspension... then if you can't press bushings in and out at home or a friends you may have to pay for that on top of the parts.
this is from 2018. prices have gone up quite a bit since then..
TVS kit $2100 TVS (Total Vehicle Suspension) System 1973-1976 Dodge A-Body
Torsion bars $239 but this site gets discount 1.03" Torsion Bar - A Body
front end kit $359 assuming you are running 73-up disc brakes. also discounted through this site. Original Performance Super Front End Kit
shocks $435 but again can be discounted through site. may also want to upgrade to even better shocks but are more expensive. Bilstein High Performance Shock Set - Front & Rear
steering box $836 Bergman Auto Craft - Home of the Modern Muscle Car
up to $3959 (without site discounts) already and that doesn't include a brake kit, bearings, brake hoses and the other lil **** you'll end up needing by the time you are done... at this point its not near as much cheaper then an alter-k as many make it seem.. some upgrades you may consider during the process fox shocks(not sure on the price but more expensive then what i posted above) and adjustable strut rods think rms has them for $249 (pst sells rms strut rods with a pst decal on it)... so now you are over 4K for a stock style suspension... then if you can't press bushings in and out at home or a friends you may have to pay for that on top of the parts.
Maybe consider what makes the coil over / rack and pinion packages different.....
If OK.....I'll speak for HDK
a) Re-enforced upper shock tower / chromoly support hoops have been an exclusive with HDK from its first build in 1996. This system allows the hub to be tucked in closer to the frame rail and the use of longer travel shocks with longer springs. Advantage: the tires can stay tucked in with the fenders drooping over them and the longer travel shock package gives a much smoother (less harsh) ride. 25 years and over 1800 builds without any kind of failure.
b) HDK exclusively utilizes automotive grade tie rod ends (vs heim / rod ends). The heim / rod end simply are not friendly to a regularly driven street car not to mention their limit they impose on suspension travel.
c) One K does it all for our popular Mopar powerplants ....6cyl, 273 / 318 small block, 340 / 360 small block, B/ RB blocks Stage II (66-72 Hemi) and all the New Gen III Hemis Change out engines by simply changing engine mounts and maybe spring rate change.
D) HDK exclusively include both (adjustable) upper and lower control arm bump stops. Not a good idea to hang your suspension off the shock or use it as the bump stop on a big pot-hole (it happens)
E) HDK supplies ride height simulators to make sure you get the look you or your customer are after. Between spindle selection and 3 shock lengths, HDK has the ability to change the front height by up to 5". At HDK, one size does not fit all.
F) All HDK products are 100% tigg welded on HDK jigs with the highest of quality control.
As my profile shows, I have been on here..... actively for over 25 years, I doubt if it means a whole lot to some, but I'm having fun.
Denny
If OK.....I'll speak for HDK
a) Re-enforced upper shock tower / chromoly support hoops have been an exclusive with HDK from its first build in 1996. This system allows the hub to be tucked in closer to the frame rail and the use of longer travel shocks with longer springs. Advantage: the tires can stay tucked in with the fenders drooping over them and the longer travel shock package gives a much smoother (less harsh) ride. 25 years and over 1800 builds without any kind of failure.
b) HDK exclusively utilizes automotive grade tie rod ends (vs heim / rod ends). The heim / rod end simply are not friendly to a regularly driven street car not to mention their limit they impose on suspension travel.
c) One K does it all for our popular Mopar powerplants ....6cyl, 273 / 318 small block, 340 / 360 small block, B/ RB blocks Stage II (66-72 Hemi) and all the New Gen III Hemis Change out engines by simply changing engine mounts and maybe spring rate change.
D) HDK exclusively include both (adjustable) upper and lower control arm bump stops. Not a good idea to hang your suspension off the shock or use it as the bump stop on a big pot-hole (it happens)
E) HDK supplies ride height simulators to make sure you get the look you or your customer are after. Between spindle selection and 3 shock lengths, HDK has the ability to change the front height by up to 5". At HDK, one size does not fit all.
F) All HDK products are 100% tigg welded on HDK jigs with the highest of quality control.
As my profile shows, I have been on here..... actively for over 25 years, I doubt if it means a whole lot to some, but I'm having fun.
Denny
Thank you for explaining the upper shock mounts.
Ok, let's get real. I made it VERY clear EXACTLY what I was comparing. I might add, that in both of those posts the total for just the front suspension is listed, and it is still less than the cost of an AlterKation front.
I also made it clear, in both posts, that the prices were old.
So where you get off calling me a LIAR, I don't know. Old prices? Yes, I said they were. Maybe I was lazy not to update them, but a liar? Untwist your undies. Unfair comparison? Again, I listed the separate breakdowns if you don't want to compare the whole car. Most people do suspension for the whole car though. And frankly, the 4-link is a much better upgrade comparatively than the AlterK is. But whatever. Front-to-front and whole car are both cheaper.
First, your AlterKation link is for a "street/strip" system, not a "street handling" system. What does that mean? No front sway bar included. Now, the "street handling" system adds a sway bar and a power rack, and that one DOES cost $4,995. That's the difference, not some attempt by me to stack the deck. You can see that right here AlterKtion Coil-Over System, Street/Handling, 67-76 A-body, 340/360 Mounts
Since I priced my list for manual steering, we'll use the lower price and even forget that there's no sway bar so it's not even a real apples to apples comparison. That's ok, because it doesn't matter. We'll use the $4295 price.
Here's the whole list AGAIN. There are 3 sellers. Summit will ship for free with that price total. Bergman and Firm Feel will charge shipping, but it's not a freight charge now is it? These are prices I just finished gathering TODAY. With the links, if you'd like to check. There are a couple of small changes compared to what I actually have on my car, like I don't have QA1 adjustable strut rods. Mine were made locally and cost me less, but if you're buying commercially I'd run (and run on my Challenger) the QA1 bars. I use a different brand of tie rod sleeves, they were CHEAPER. I'd run the Qa1 version if I bought them again.
My Duster, if I built it today
Front :
QA1 Adjustable strut bars - $243.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing
QA1 LCA’s - $476.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52307 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing
QA1 tie rod sleeves- $68.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52325 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing
Proforged tie rod ends- $157.08 (all 4)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10157 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10156 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing
Proforged lower ball joint (driver)- $42.83
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Proforged lower ball joint (passenger)- $39.27
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Hotchkis 1.5 shocks (non adjustable)- $337.44 (just the front 2)
1974 DODGE DART Hotchkis Sport Suspension 70020013 Hotchkis Sport Suspension 1.5 Street Performance Series Shocks | Summit Racing
Howe racing ball joints- $179.98 (both)
1974 DODGE DART Howe Racing 22320S Howe Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Flaming River 16:1 manual steering box- $776.99
1974 DODGE DART Flaming River FR1540 Flaming River Steering Gear Boxes | Summit Racing
Moog pitman arm (manual) - $65.99
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 103-10015 Proforged Pitman Arms | Summit Racing
Moog idler - $51.99
1974 DODGE DART Moog Chassis Parts K7086 Moog Replacement Idler Arms | Summit Racing
Hellwig 55905 front sway bar- $231.99
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 55905 Hellwig Motorsports Tubular Sway Bars | Summit Racing
Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA’s (1st gen)- $375
BAC SPC Upper Control Arms - Bergman Auto Craft
BAC Delrin LCA bushings : $76.50
BAC Delrin Lower Control Arm Bushings - Bergman Auto Craft
Firm Feel 1.12” bars- $395
Firmfeel Mopar Suspension and Steering
Firm Feel greasable LCA pins- $125
Firmfeel Mopar Suspension and Steering
Total: $3,644.91
So, that's less than $4,295 for the AlterKation right? Yes. It is $650.12 cheaper. If you don't like my parts choices, feel free to blow it out your ***. All of these are companies I'm currently using or have used before, and trust. If you have some fancier wiz bang crap good for you. But I'd take the parts on the list. Speaking of lists, where's yours? Like an actual price breakdown, with links, so we can check.
Hell with it. You want to talk parts choices? Some of mine are really expensive for very little performance improvement. I love my BAC Delrin LCA bushings. But you know what? 99% of people, myself included, would be fine with poly bushings with the greasable pins I already use. In fact, I ran prothane's on my Duster for thousands of miles, they were fine and cost $11 now. Oh, and you can buy a PST 16:1 steering box. Hell, it would be lighter because it has an aluminum case, the flaming river box is steel and heavier. And I sure as hell don't need Howe Racing upper ball joints, again, most wouldn't.
If you substitute these parts…
Proforged ball joints- $19.80 x2
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10126 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Prothane polyurethane LCA bushings-$11.37
1974 DODGE DART Prothane Motion Control 4-205-BL Prothane Front Control Arm Bushings | Summit Racing
PST manual steering box - $339.00
https://p-s-t.com/i-23161668-manual-steering-box-16-1.html#!year=1974||make=DODGE||model=DART
Total: $3,001.41
So now the price is $1,293.59 cheaper. And with parts that most people, myself included, probably wouldn't even notice the difference with on the street. Oh, and PST ships free, and that's NOT the member discount price. You could save a TON more too if you just rebuilt and reinforced your LCA's but I left it off because some people would need to pay to have that done and I have no idea what that would cost. I did my own, and again, the difference between those and QA1 LCA's is fairly minimal, especially if you aren't lowered as much as my car is. Or get the QA1's and save another $125 AND the $11.37 and just run them with the bushings and LCA pins they come with.
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