Alterkation or K1?

[Jim Lusk]

Ok, real world. Like I said before we built my son's Barracuda ON THE CHEAP. We had less TOTAL in the car than the cost of any of the aftermarket systems. That included the cost of the car ($150 delivered). We did have some help with the heads and the 1.14" torsion bars were donated. Otherwise, it was parts we had laying around...We made stuff, bought used stuff, and went and had fun. Oh, and it was also my son's daily driver for several years.

 

[72bluNblu]

Ok, real world. Like I said before we built my son's Barracuda ON THE CHEAP. We had less TOTAL in the car than the cost of any of the aftermarket systems. That included the cost of the car ($150 delivered). We did have some help with the heads and the 1.14" torsion bars were donated. Otherwise, it was parts we had laying around...We made stuff, bought used stuff, and went and had fun. Oh, and it was also my son's daily driver for several years.

Exactly. I paid substantially less than that list, I bought my Flaming river box used for $300. I had my adjustable strut rods made. I even bought my Hotchkis shocks second hand, guy installed them and never used them.

But you could do the whole front end today for that price, and it's still cheaper. And if you did some more of the work yourself, like the rebuilding the factory LCA's, you save a ton more. And you could leave off some of that stuff entirely for a primarily street use car. I didn't, but there it is. I think you could still probably beat up on a car with an AlterKation for less than $2,500 if you did some more of your own work and substituted out a couple more things that are over the top for a street car.

 

[go-fish]

Hot tank and sand blast that cracked flimsy K-member. Weld that up too along with the LCA's. Not everyone welds so that could be added to the cost and no welding required for a coilover kit. $$$

Borgeson box for a full tilt torsion bar suspension adds $1380. So add $604 if you want power steering (subtracting the cost of a 16:1 man. box). If you want any kind of power steering that adds to the cost. Not everyone wants to turn wide *** front tires with even a 16:1 manual box. A manual rack does as good a job as a power box.

Upgrade to the expensive Hotchkis shocks for an apples to apples comparison.

Back to well under $1000 difference for an apples comparison.

You and I could go back and forth on this. Yes, I think you were being very disingenuous with your figures earlier.

I'm done with the back and forth with you. I'm not here to try to argue which system is better and I'm done calling you out when you trump stuff up to try to prove a point.

When it comes to the comparison debate just know that I have insight on both systems. I'm here to tell you and everyone, no matter the verdict of which is "best", the cost comparison is negligible. Perhaps the coilover kits are more but it is a few hundred dollars on ~$4,000 expenditure. If you are pinching pennies stick to Rock Auto.

 

[go-fish]

We did have some help with the heads and the 1.14" torsion bars were donated..

What size tire were on that car? How did the 1.14" bar work with them?

 

[72bluNblu]

Hot tank and sand blast that cracked flimsy K-member. Weld that up too along with the LCA's. Not everyone welds so that could be added to the cost and no welding required for a coilover kit. $$$

You don't have to weld the LCA's because I included the QA1's in the first price. Not everyone's K is cracked. And quite frankly, if you plan to do the chassis reinforcement that EITHER path would need you're going to be doing a lot of welding, or a lot of paying. I ran the stock K on my Challenger for 70k miles with most of the modifications I listed. Is it good to reinforce the stock K? Yes. Is it absolutely necessary? NO.

Borgeson box for a full tilt torsion bar suspension adds $1380. So add $604 if you want power steering (subtracting the cost of a 16:1 man. box). If you want any kind of power steering that adds to the cost. Not everyone wants to turn wide *** front tires with even a 16:1 manual box. A manual rack does as good a job as a power box.

What everyone wants is of no consequence. It's not my fault you need a Borgeson to turn, I do not. My car is no less "full tilt" than yours, I can steer just fine with the 16:1 manual box and 275/35/18's.

And if you want a power box to power rack comparison, remember again the AlterK price ALSO goes up to $4,995. Hey, that's $700, why, that's more than $604 isn't it? But you want to compare manual to power. Funny if I do that it's "disingenuous", but it's ok for you?

Oh, and I know that $1,380 is Bergman's price for his all included master kit for the Borgeson, but guys have done it for less. I'd buy a kit, but again, if you're going to nickel and dime me, well, back at you.

Upgrade to the expensive Hotchkis shocks for an apples to apples comparison.

Hey I don't run them, and I am of the opinion that they aren't even necessary based on how the non-adjustables work on my car. You want a setting you never actually change, awesome. The non-adjustables are more than good enough. You could argue that Bilstein RCD's are more than good enough actually, and they're cheaper.

Your AlterK price doesn't have a sway bar remember.

You and I could go back and forth on this. Yes, I think you were being very disingenuous with your figures earlier.

I'm done with the back and forth with you. I'm not here to try to argue which system is better and I'm done calling you out when you trump stuff up to try to prove a point.

When it comes to the comparison debate just know that I have insight on both systems. I'm here to tell you and everyone, no matter the verdict of which is "best", the cost comparison is negligible. Perhaps the coilover kits are more but it is a few hundred dollars on ~$4,000 expenditure. If you are pinching pennies stick to Rock Auto.

I'm being disingenuous? You used a AlterK price that doesn't even include a sway bar. And never said one word about it either. I said my prices were over a year old, any adult that's bought anything recently knows that inflation has effected prices. Except the RMS prices apparently, if that's really accurate.

You called me a liar sir, if you want to talk about "trumping things up". I backed up everything I said, the parts list is right there. If you want to nickel and dime me on parts choices, fine, but I said you can do it cheaper and you CAN. And I'd put the car built with the parts from my list against an AlterK car any day.

Where's YOUR price list? You called me out, I backed up what I said. And why is it a $4,000 expenditure now, I thought the torsion bar set up was $5,515 ? Or can you not back that up with a price list? What's an AlterK with manual steering and a sway bar cost?

 

[go-fish]

Go to bed!

 

[Jim Lusk]

What size tire were on that car? How did the 1.14" bar work with them?

On the street 235-60-15s, on the autocross course Nascar slicks 27-10-15 rear, 26.5-10-15 front. We used custom offset wheels to sort of fit. The street wheels are Paulsen circle track 15x7s.

 

[Jim Lusk]

Hot tank and sand blast that cracked flimsy K-member. Weld that up too along with the LCA's. Not everyone welds so that could be added to the cost and no welding required for a coilover kit. $$$

Borgeson box for a full tilt torsion bar suspension adds $1380. So add $604 if you want power steering (subtracting the cost of a 16:1 man. box). If you want any kind of power steering that adds to the cost. Not everyone wants to turn wide *** front tires with even a 16:1 manual box. A manual rack does as good a job as a power box.

I have friends who could have helped with the welding if we didn't do it, but I also had a hot tank (and still will have access to it when I get it hooked up for a friend of mine).

We went to power steering in my son's car to SAVE MONEY. 16:1 manual box is expensive. We grabbed a large sector cop box at a self-serve yard. Swapped the worm gear and attached parts into a small sector box that we had and resealed. I'll bet we had less than $100 in the whole setup, including pump.

Like I said, we built this car on the cheap. A nicer car would have been more expensive, but the build cost to get it to that point would have been the same. My son did much of the build himself and painted it (not perfect, but looked good enough out there racing).

The point is that you don't need to spend a fortune on this stuff. Just last year I built a power box for my other son's Dart and one for a friend (same guy I gave the hot tank to) who owns a resto shop as he had never done one (I've only built these three boxes in my life). I see far too many people think that the only way to build a car is to go a vendor and buy everything.

 

[ramcharger]

Holy Crap that was quite the firestorm.

 

[67autocross]

If you are ever lost on land or sea…there is only one word you need to know…

 

[goldduster318]

Wow, calling the OE K-frame weak is a real stretch. Are the welds always the best, no...but from a shape perspective it's basically a fully triangulated member, which makes a big deal when it comes to stiffness. The original k-frame with the strut rods so far in front and the OE LCA location is wildly triangulated and if it has spherical rod end strut rods (which make more of a difference than anything you could do to your car), they don't move front and back which is the major issue. Then you need a stiff LCA bushing and you're set, then add some torsion bars and a good upper control arm set to get caster. I have the hotchkis sway bar set as a personal preference but there are less expensive options. I don't have anything fancy in the back outside the sway bar, and I have stock tie rods. I have the borgeson box but you can get a pump and brackets for a small block from any v-belt mopar.

The worst part about any of the kits, RMS, HDK, GTS is that they are basically square tubing welded at 90 degree angles to each other with only one crossmember, AND they have the lower control arm cantilevered behind the rear mounting bolt for the original k-frame. I'm not sure what the tubing thickness is, but it is surely flexing a little (or a lot) based on the shape. If it was tied together behind there as a crossmember even if it was removeable it would be a lot better. I can't even think of a modern car that has such a short distance between the front and rear mounting points of the lower control arm. Yeah, people use Pinto front ends for years on hot rods, but they were basically cheap, light cars where the suspension was made for cheapness and easy manufacturing. Also you'll have to add to the $4995 a set of brakes which is $1000 for the most basic kit, which is not a pro-touring type kit anyway. I personally look at these as drag race suspensions. It does fine for that. I always thought the deal with worrying about torsion bars being a clearance issue seemed funny when all these kits have square tubing encroaching in the engine bay. If it was about the steering box, yeah I get that one.

If someone wanted to make an all out handling front end they'd be doing it differently than this, but you'd be welding to the car for sure. And the rear wouldn't have a triangulated 4-link either, it would be a torque arm with two lower control arms with watts link.

 

[HemiDenny]

The worst part about any of the kits, RMS, HDK, GTS is that they are basically square tubing welded at 90 degree angles to each other with only one crossmember, AND they have the lower control arm cantilevered behind the rear mounting bolt for the original k-frame. I'm not sure what the tubing thickness is, but it is surely flexing a little (or a lot) based on the shape. If it was tied together behind there as a crossmember even if it was removeable it would be a lot better. I can't even think of a modern car that has such a short distance between the front and rear mounting points of the lower control arm.

a removable rear crossbar? great idea!......maybe like this? ....BTW, a HDK exclusive, it has been an option since HDK's inception and a standard feature for almost a decade, along with automotive grade tie rod ends.

 

[goldduster318]

Its better than nothing for sure. It has rod ends on it though? Its basically more of a control arm mount brace so it reduces flex in the cross-car direction but it's likely far less effective for up/down and fore/aft movement due to suspension loads than it would be if it was a square tube in double shear.

Generally all these k-frames seem like they'll parallelogram under loads.

Its quite interesting because the concept (not saying the geometry) of the original pinto front suspensions is a lot better design:

Cone shaped piece to hold the spring shock with an angle on it for strength, much better. Lower control arm with main pivot in double shear, great. Strut rod with triangulation to locate it, much better. Correct the geometry of the above, tubular or boxed lower control arm and remove the rubber from the strut rod and replace it with a heim like you'd do with a stock mopar front end and it doesn't bother me. The major loads are all inside of the same piece which has a crossmember. Now on our cars, this would have some oil pan clearance issues with mid sump. I would imagine you could do rear sump instead and it works.

I think everyone went away from this triangulated setup generally for being "easy" not because its better.

This is a more modern way to accomplish the same concept (03+ Ford Crown Victoria front suspension). The frame is kinda light on crossmembers but the aluminum piece they have there is very stiff. But you can see the LCA mounts are far apart.

 

[HemiDenny]

Its better than nothing for sure. It has rod ends on it though? Its basically more of a control arm mount brace so it reduces flex in the cross-car direction but it's likely far less effective for up/down and fore/aft movement due to suspension loads than it would be if it was a square tube in double shear.

Generally all these k-frames seem like they'll parallelogram under loads.

Its quite interesting because the concept (not saying the geometry) of the original pinto front suspensions is a lot better design:
View attachment 1715851543

Cone shaped piece to hold the spring shock with an angle on it for strength, much better. Lower control arm with main pivot in double shear, great. Strut rod with triangulation to locate it, much better. Correct the geometry of the above, tubular or boxed lower control arm and remove the rubber from the strut rod and replace it with a heim like you'd do with a stock mopar front end and it doesn't bother me. The major loads are all inside of the same piece which has a crossmember. Now on our cars, this would have some oil pan clearance issues with mid sump. I would imagine you could do rear sump instead and it works.

I think everyone went away from this triangulated setup generally for being "easy" not because its better.

This is a more modern way to accomplish the same concept (03+ Ford Crown Victoria front suspension). The frame is kinda light on crossmembers but the aluminum piece they have there is very stiff. But you can see the LCA mounts are far apart.
View attachment 1715851544

pretty nice.....now comes the fun part, putting all that stuff in a 67-75 A body with the tires inside the fenders, and don't forget we need engine mounts for a Gen III Hemi....all without bustin' the bank. BTW, make it bolt on, some of us do not want to weld.

 

[ramcharger]

Having read pretty much everything, I'm thinking the K-1 will work best for me... Room for a BB in the future, ease of maintance, etc. 225 on 15's in the front is what I want and should be all I need. I'm not full blown autoX or drag race specific but I sure as hell want to get this done before I die and I have plenty of welding to get done on my Jeeps.

 

[72bluNblu]

I was updating my list for another thread, so, I thought I would add it here as well.

I have fixed a bunch of things to make this more "apples to apples" since that was a complaint. So I made this less of a comparison between an RMS AlterKation conversion and my Duster and made it more an across the board comparison, because frankly I forgot a few things that I already had (spindles, for example) and also because there's a bunch of stuff on my car that's better than what RMS has out of the box. So, I added-

• 73+ A-body disk spindles (the RMS kit includes spindles and not everyone has 73+ spindles already)
• Camber bolts (new ones, because RMS has them, even though I'd reuse stock ones first)
• Viking double adjustable shocks (just like the RMS comes with so you can lose the Hotchkis comparison entirely)
• PST 16:1 manual box (I'd buy it vs a Flaming River box now)
• Proforged ball joints (the RMS doesn't come with Howe Racing ball joints, and the proforged stuff is great quality)
• Polyurethane LCA bushings and greaseable shafts (RMS comes with poly LCA bushings, not Delrin)
• 1.08" Bergman torsion bars (to keep the different shippers to a minimum, and the quality/function is comparable)

Apples to Apples right? And truly, it's still not quite there because the AlterK does not have double adjustable UCA's like the SPC's are and the BAC SPC's have Delrin bushings. But frankly the SPC's aren't significantly more expensive than other adjustable UCA's, you could save some money with QA1's but then someone would argue they're not single adjustable like the RMS even though they'll get you the alignment specs you need and the bushings are better for the street than the spherical rod ends the RMS has.

I also used the Borgeson steering box for a "power to power" comparison. I did NOT use the "kit" price, I used the price for the box and the steering adaptor. I did this because the RMS AlterK does not include a steering pump, lines, or a pulley like the Borgeson kit does, so for a real "apples to apples" comparison I used exactly what you get with the RMS kit, which is just the rack and adaptor. Using a stock power steering box would be cheaper, but the Borgeson is more comparable to the power rack. And the lines, pump and pulley should be pretty comparable price-wise.

I did not include the PST FABO discount. Some of the shippers will have shipping prices (BAC, DoctorDiff, RMS) but there's a freight charge for the AlterK. Taxes would be less on the torsion bar stuff too because it's significantly less money.

Upgraded torsion bar suspension, 3/30/22 pricing
Front :
QA1 Adjustable strut bars - $243.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing

QA1 LCA’s - $476.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52307 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing

QA1 tie rod sleeves- $68.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52325 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing

Proforged tie rod ends- $174.52 (all 4)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10157 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10156 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing

Proforged lower ball joint (driver)- $47.59
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Proforged lower ball joint (passenger)- $43.63
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing

Viking double adjustable shocks-$338
Viking Performance Stock Mount Front Shocks

Proforged upper ball joints- $39.60 (both included)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10126 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing

PST manual steering box - $339.00
Manual Steering Box 16:1

Moog pitman arm (manual) - $49.99
1974 DODGE DART Moog Chassis Parts K7075 Moog Replacement Pitman Arms | Summit Racing

Moog idler - $33.99
1974 DODGE DART Moog Chassis Parts K7086 Moog Replacement Idler Arms | Summit Racing

Hellwig 55905 front sway bar- $239.99
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 55905 Hellwig Motorsports Tubular Sway Bars | Summit Racing

Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA’s (1st gen)- $375
https://bergmanautocraft.com/product/bac-spc-upper-control-arms/

Bergman Autocraft 1.08” torsion bars- $319
https://bergmanautocraft.com/product/mopar-a-body-torsion-bar-set-1-08/

Proforged polyurethane control arm shaft kit w/bushings- $110.95
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pof-120-10003/make/dodge/model/dart/year/1974

Proforged Camber bolts - $34.32 (2 sets)
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pof-120-10009/make/dodge/model/dart/year/1974

DoctorDiff 73+ disk spindles- $155
https://www.doctordiff.com/reproduction-disc-brake-knuckles.html

Total: $3,140.42 (manual to manual)
Savings of $899.58 vs AlterK w/manual steering (and no sway bar on that AlterK, so it would be more if you add it)

Or add power steering-
Borgeson box from BAC $889
https://bergmanautocraft.com/product/borgeson-steering-box-conversion-kit-large-sector/

Total: $3,690.42 (power steering, pump and lines not included just like the RMS)
Savings of $1,049.58 vs AlterK with power rack

And here's AlterK pricing with links so you can check it, all above board. I realized I used the price with engine mounts last time, so, I used the price without mounts since I didn't include replacement engine mounts in my torsion bar pricing. I'm not going to compare Borgeson power steering to a manual rack, because that's 100% bullshit. Manual to manual, power to power.

Street/Strip RMS AlterK (manual rack, no sway bar, no engine mounts)- $4,040
https://www.reillymotorsports.com/a...stem-street-strip-67-76-a-body-no-mounts.html

Street/Handling RMS AlterK (power rack, sway bar, no engine mounts)- $4,740
https://www.reillymotorsports.com/?target=product&product_id=16247

I think it should be obvious that neither of these set ups are "pinching pennies", and the savings are still about $1k for a fully rebuilt torsion bar system that is very comparable as far as quality of components go to the AlterK's. If anything, it's the AlterK that falls short because of the lack of a sway bar on the manual to manual comparison price and the lack of double adjustable UCA's on both. And of course you could probably save another $500 on the torsion bar rebuild by leaving out the tubular LCA's most people don't need and boxing the stock lowers, but then you wouldn't have a full tubular set up for comparison purposes (even though the car would handle just as well) and you'd need to be able to weld.

 

[72Duster440]

Hellwig 55905 front sway bar- $239.99
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 55905 Hellwig Motorsports Tubular Sway Bars | Summit Racing

$157 at 1973-1976 Dodge Mopar A-Body - Tubular Hellwig FRONT Sway Bar 55905 (1-1/8 Diameter) [55905] | $157.53 | SD Truck Springs | Leaf Springs, Helper Springs and Suspension Parts

I bought one last week from Summit, they beat the price at SD by $1. Only went through Summit because I was already placing a very large order with them, otherwise I would have gone through SD, it's free shipping as well.

I didn't price check anything else, but I have bought a lot of what's on your list, and I know I paid less for a few of the items. But the sway bar was the only one fresh in my mind of where the better price was.

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

Your site sponsor, Bergman Auto Craft has proven over an over factory style steering and suspension not only works but works well. I have developed a pro touring front suspension kit containing everything needed to update the front suspension and steering. I've taken all the guesswork out of the parts choice by using my years of experience on this subject. We are the only company that puts together a package that is this comprehensive. We use a combination of proprietary parts and off the shelf parts. Feel free to contact me at any time. I answer all calls, texts, emails and messages.
https://bergmanautocraft.com/product/bac-front-suspension-kit/

 

[ramcharger]

Your site sponsor, Bergman Auto Craft has proven over an over factory style steering and suspension not only works but works well. I have developed a pro touring front suspension kit containing everything needed to update the front suspension and steering. I've taken all the guesswork out of the parts choice by using my years of experience on this subject. We are the only company that puts together a package that is this comprehensive. We use a combination of proprietary parts and off the shelf parts. Feel free to contact me at any time. I answer all calls, texts, emails and messages.
BAC MOPAR FRONT SUSPENSION KIT - Bergman Auto Craft

What's outstanding is the options available from the day I joined this group in 2003 IRC with less than 900 members to now. I'm not doing autoX... I just want 15" Cop Steels 225/235 front and 255+ in the rear and handle better than when it did, back in the day. Small block for now but I've got a sonic checked 400. I want it to stop and steer, not run the
Nürburgring.

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

What's outstanding is the options available from the day I joined this group in 2003 IRC with less than 900 members to now. I'm not doing autoX... I just want 15" Cop Steels 225/235 front and 255+ in the rear and handle better than when it did, back in the day. Small block for now but I've got a sonic checked 400. I want it to stop and steer, not run the
Nürburgring.

Our kits are designed for someone who wants modern handling and driveability with all the guesswork taken out of the equation. Our kits also offer benefits over the larger companies:

Completely customizable. No need to buy parts you already have. We can add or subtract parts as necessary
No other company offers steering parts in their kits
One stop shop as we offer steering box kits and many other items
Monotube shocks, not twin tube
Easier alignment and improved geometry due to unique upper control arm design
Delrin lower control arm bushings and specific fit pins
Properly matched spring and shock rates
Highest degree of customer service in the industry. We are reachable virtually all the time and communicate worldwide via email, phone, text and messenger.
Owned by 37 year A body owner and technician