Another "Is Fuel Injection a Worthwhile Upgrade?" Question

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lead69 said:
I do not doubt you and appreciate the input but I know quite few guys that have run "affordable" all in one efi kits and not had that level of success with dependability. I also know a few guys that have pieced together systems and the horsepower/performance results were not as good as what could be had with a more expensive truly tunable system or a carb.
I do not discourage anyone from running efi if that's what they truly desire, no different than picking a turbo or nitrous but to argue one is truly an upgrade to the other there are many variables that need to be considered. One is inherently more basic to install, generally cheaper and gets the job done quite sufficiently when tuned properly.
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I know someone who installed a Holley sniper and liked it, then took it to the drag strip and the car ran badly by about 3/4 track. So he sends out the data log and its at 100% injector duty and the AFR is 18:1. It didn't have any fuel pressure sensor, but it was starving for fuel. The problem was using the external fuel pump kit and the stock unbaffled tank/pickup. Fixed that, all was good. I'd expect a lot of people do similar things and/or try to do a dead head PWM fuel system, put the filter between the regulator and the fuel injectors, or run the "corvette" fuel filter that is supposed to be a regulator (it's an orifice to a return line) which leaves some to be desired also. Fuel systems are more important, you don't have a bowl to give you any forgiveness. The right system to use is a bypass regulator after the injectors with the same size return line as feed.

The other stuff is wiring, if someone is the type that uses the blue insulated crimp connectors and crummy crimping tools, that could bring trouble.

Finally, and really the last concern I would have on systems that have the ECU in the throttle body, is the temperature in which the electronics reach. Get much over 100 C / 212 F and uprated electronics are needed and I can't say if they are actually used there. It's somewhat likely for it to reach or exceed that temperature at some point.
 
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AndyF said:
A Holley Sniper plus the associated parts (EFI gas tank with pump and regulator, Hyperspark distributor and a laptop) will run you about $2500. It is the best investment a person can make if they really want to learn tuning theory. It isn't for everyone, a lot of old school hot rodders have trouble wrapping their heads around digital tuning, but if you are interested in really learning how to tune a performance engine then it is the way to go. You'll learn tuning theory much faster with digital controls since you can tune faster, you have more control, and you have the built in data logging.

I wouldn't make the leap unless you are committed though since the learning curve can be a little frustrating. Some people just can't ever seem to grasp digital tuning since it is different than everything they learned. Other people don't have any trouble adapting. I've seen some guys come up to speed almost instantly while other people seem to just lock up. If your brain locks up when people start talking about computers then best to sit this round out. The next generation of aftermarket EFI will most likely be even easier to use.
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That's the key, technology marches on.
 
70chall440 said:
Good question actually. I grew up on carbs as many members here did. Not to date myself but I started working on cars at about 75 or so. I learned how to work on carbs in auto tech in HS and was very good with Thermoquads as even then I was a Mopar guy. I agree that many carb problems are not actually carb problems, just like many EFI issues are not all EFI related (many times its a power thing or lack there of). As to learning EFI, I am far from an expert but what I have learned I did in a much shorter time frame than with carbs; perhaps a more accurate statement is that I have far more experience with carbs than with EFI.

The thing that got me to EFI was really related more to my laziness when it comes to starting and driving my classic cars which I don't very often. I had a carbureted 6 pack on my 70 challenger which was a ***** to get running after sitting for any length of time. I rebuild the carbs probably 3-6 times, i/we could get it running ok but again, if it sat for say a month it is back to priming and tuning. I put an EFI 6 pack system on the car (with a hall effect distributor, MSD and bigger alternator). I can now let the car sit for months, go out and it fires right up, idles and has amazing throttle response. Oh and power is noticeably better.

Then there is my 52 Dodge PU with a 56 Desoto 330 Hemi. I put a brand new Holley 600 on it and at first it ran great. I let it sit for 3 months, went out and got it running and drove it about 1/2 mile and it started sputtering and spitting, limped it home and beat on the float bowels and got it to clear up, then I ripped off the carb and replaced it with a Fitech system. As with the Challenger, it starts immediately, idles smooth and runs fantastic.

Now, I am not saying that the EFI was "all that' but it definitely works for me. I like being able to tune it with a laptop and that the more I drive them the better they run. Sure, one of the ECUs could die and i would be screwed but that is the case with many thing (fuel pump, coil, BR, etc).

I have 3 Harleys; 2 are newer bikes with EFI and I can go out and start them right now, but my 78 FX still has a carb and I know I'd have to take it off and rebuild it in order to get that bike to even think of running. This bike has been sitting for a number of years and this might still be the case with an EFI system but I would a lot more confidence in that if it had it (currently a hardtail frame so I am not in a real hurry to ride it anyway, so its garage art at the moment).

I am building a 71 Charger, it will have a 5.7 obviously with EFI. My 70 RR will have a 66 426 GII Hemi and it will be EFI. My 68 Cuda (if I do it) will probably have a 5.7 and EFI.

Again, not a carb hater, I know they make power and can be reliable (were used for many many years) but for me personally, EFI is the way to fly.
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LOL...had to laugh at the power comment because that is a FACT. The other issue with electronics of ANY type is the grounds. People just don’t ground stuff correctly and your hair will fall out chasing down crap only to find out the ground(s) are horrible.

I remember the last year Mark Pawuk had his Pro Stock car. Back then, the PS us would stop at Woodburn between the Sonoma and Seattle Nationals. It was a two day deal with Tuesday a test day and Wednesday had a Chicago style shoot out. Awesome show but the test day was the best.

Anyway, Pawuk wasn’t there, so his crew chief was driving the car. They had picked up a slight miss (I could hear it even in the burnout) and they couldn’t find it.

So all Tuesday I hung out at their trailer, bench racing the guy and watching them work. They busted their asses all day and by the last pass of the day they thought they found it. The found two wires had chaffed each other. Wasn’t it.

The next morning when I get there they are already in the staging lanes so I run up to see the pass, and they laid down a perfect run, no miss.

I ran back to my truck so I could get my pit bike so I didn’t have to walk all day, and rode over to the trailer. They were all smiles and I asked what the hell they found. He said we didn’t find anything. Walk around behind the trailer and look.

They had stripped every wire off the car. All of it and it was there in a pile. The ignition box was on the bench marked questionable.

I said WFT??? And he said it was do that or give up because everything else was changed. He figured there was a broken wire inside the insulation or something. But it was a nightmare.

I’ll never forget that.
 
SLOPAR72 said:
I would say this guy has figured a few things out. Power adder yes, but still the same principal.... Maybe that other guy knew a thing or 2 also. If you want to run Carburetors why not points too? An era gone by but I am sure there were people who could full send without electronic ignition. Your car, you way, but my PSA for this topic is the lady folk don't care much for the smell of gas on your hands and you won't have that problem with a Laptop......





JW
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If I was running a power adder that was putting as much added power as Musi is I’d have EFI.

Pretty sure the OP isn’t running Musi power even a power adder.

Equating a carb with points is not even close. BTW...in several ways points are FAR superior to electronic ignitions.
 
yellow rose said:
If I was running a power adder that was putting as much added power as Musi is I’d have EFI.

Pretty sure the OP isn’t running Musi power even a power adder.

Equating a carb with points is not even close. BTW...in several ways points are FAR superior to electronic ignitions.
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Most have no idea how reliable points can be, even at high rpm's with high horsepower motors. Even the top classes ran points when electronic ignition was on every production car for 25 years....
 
Well that is the great thing about America, you can do as you wish.

As I said, carbs do make power; at WOT which is not where 99% of drive.

Not sure what technology you do not think is a good investment, name any modern performance car that isn't running EFI, electronic ignition, etc. You can pretty much be assured that if carbs were better they would be running them.
 
318willrun said:
Most have no idea how reliable points can be, even at high rpm's with high horsepower motors. Even the top classes ran points when electronic ignition was on every production car for 25 years....
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That's because they've been brainwashed by forums and magazines that Electronic is the only way to go......to keep all the sponsors happy. Seriously, you'd think drag racing never existed until the advent of some of this "new modern" stuff. Top fuelers ran points in magnetos for years and they worked just fine.
 
70chall440 said:
Well that is the great thing about America, you can do as you wish.

As I said, carbs do make power; at WOT which is not where 99% of drive.

Not sure what technology you do not think is a good investment, name any modern performance car that isn't running EFI, electronic ignition, etc. You can pretty much be assured that if carbs were better they would be running them.
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This ain't 1970..... Wish it was but here we are. There is the YR group that will carry a Carburetor to the grave and good for them. Alot of business to be had out there as alot are in use. And I will say that I had around 1990 a Carburetor that was built from someone who helped put a well known Carburetor company on the map (many of you have them) and it was money. Start dead cold and idle. It did everything right. He has passed and so has carburetors for the next generation of Car enthusiast. You can't stop it or discount FI. It's just a culture change.

Something else about FI is ethanol fuel. It sucks and since we are talking about street application specifically this is huge. Any FI I have dealt with have a return line to the tank. Bye bye Vapor lock... Sure you can put a return line on something not EFI but far and wide that ain't gonna happen. Correct fuel system, proper wiring, and some knowledge will just outperform a Carburetor for street applications. But to each his own and that's what makes the world unique. Everyone is different.....

JW
 
70chall440 said:
Well that is the great thing about America, you can do as you wish.

As I said, carbs do make power; at WOT which is not where 99% of drive.

Not sure what technology you do not think is a good investment, name any modern performance car that isn't running EFI, electronic ignition, etc. You can pretty much be assured that if carbs were better they would be running them.
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Carbs make more power everywhere. If you can’t get the drivability out of them, that’s on the tuner.

Again, we’re it not for CAFE we wouldn’t even have roller lifters. You can argue all you want but that is the FACT. The US government, which doesn’t know jack **** about oil, cars or anything else, using the EPA decided that phosphorus and zinc needed to be significant reduced and THAT is why you have roller lifters. And BTW and FWIW, they had to change the oil because the same morons decided that catalytic converters would save the world.

I can go on about stupid technology but you think I’m old and stupid so I’m done with it.

Unless you are using some power adder a carb is BY FAR simpler, and easier to use. I you want EFI then do it. Just don’t tell me how smart you are and how stupid I am because I don’t bu that line of ****.
 
SLOPAR72 said:
This ain't 1970..... Wish it was but here we are. There is the YR group that will carry a Carburetor to the grave and good for them. Alot of business to be had out there as alot are in use. And I will say that I had around 1990 a Carburetor that was built from someone who helped put a well known Carburetor company on the map (many of you have them) and it was money. Start dead cold and idle. It did everything right. He has passed and so has carburetors for the next generation of Car enthusiast. You can't stop it or discount FI. It's just a culture change.

Something else about FI is ethanol fuel. It sucks and since we are talking about street application specifically this is huge. Any FI I have dealt with have a return line to the tank. Bye bye Vapor lock... Sure you can put a return line on something not EFI but far and wide that ain't gonna happen. Correct fuel system, proper wiring, and some knowledge will just outperform a Carburetor for street applications. But to each his own and that's what makes the world unique. Everyone is different.....

JW
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Dude, you are so wrong about me it’s ridiculous. I’ve been running ethanol fuel since it was stuffed down our throats. I’ve spent more time tuning NA and some blown alcohol **** than I care to think about. If you have vapor lock and think it’s ethanol you’d be wrong. BTW, I was running a return line in 1984. Long before any of these other posers jumped on that bandwagon.

There isn’t enough ethanol content even at a full 10%, or even at 50% to cause vapor lock. It’s the pump fuel that does it. It’s the blend of pump fuel.


Just damn. EFI has saved the world.
 
RustyRatRod said:
That's because they've been brainwashed by forums and magazines that Electronic is the only way to go......to keep all the sponsors happy. Seriously, you'd think drag racing never existed until the advent of some of this "new modern" stuff. Top fuelers ran points in magnetos for years and they worked just fine.
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For true. All my mags had points. Most mags still do. Real mags. I’d be running a Mag on the street had I kept mine. Wish I had.

The tech snobs are so arrogant it’s baffling.
 
yellow rose said:
Carbs make more power everywhere. If you can’t get the drivability out of them, that’s on the tuner.

Again, we’re it not for CAFE we wouldn’t even have roller lifters. You can argue all you want but that is the FACT. The US government, which doesn’t know jack **** about oil, cars or anything else, using the EPA decided that phosphorus and zinc needed to be significant reduced and THAT is why you have roller lifters. And BTW and FWIW, they had to change the oil because the same morons decided that catalytic converters would save the world.

I can go on about stupid technology but you think I’m old and stupid so I’m done with it.

Unless you are using some power adder a carb is BY FAR simpler, and easier to use. I you want EFI then do it. Just don’t tell me how smart you are and how stupid I am because I don’t bu that line of ****.
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I never said anything about being smarter because I prefer EFI, but the FACT is that a carb cannot adjust itself; its a "set it and forget it" device, that is a FACT. Yes you can tune them, but to do so means disassembling them (several times) to change jets, power valves, etc. until you get it right, that is also a FACT. So if you want to drive your car somewhere that has a significant change in altitude, oh wait you will lose power because the carb cannot adjust itself... and that is a FACT.

Look, you can hate on technology all you like, you are also free to run whatever you like on your car, but to essentially say that technology is bad and anyone who takes advantage of it is falling for some type of BS is just wrong. If you want to run a carb and points, knock yourself out, doesn't mean everyone else has to. Same thing the other way, if "everyone" is running newer technology, you are free not to do so; but do not try and convince people that newer technology is bad because it isn't, and that sir is a FACT.
 
yellow rose said:
Dude, you are so wrong about me it’s ridiculous. I’ve been running ethanol fuel since it was stuffed down our throats. I’ve spent more time tuning NA and some blown alcohol **** than I care to think about. If you have vapor lock and think it’s ethanol you’d be wrong. BTW, I was running a return line in 1984. Long before any of these other posers jumped on that bandwagon.

There isn’t enough ethanol content even at a full 10%, or even at 50% to cause vapor lock. It’s the pump fuel that does it. It’s the blend of pump fuel.


Just damn. EFI has saved the world.
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Who pointed directly at you...... But here's one. **** you! Tell ya what Mr. know it all.... Why don't you take your meds, go play with your Recue dogs and live your Dinosaur life......

Damn, ignore just saved me lol.....

JW
 
yellow rose said:
For true. All my mags had points. Most mags still do. Real mags. I’d be running a Mag on the street had I kept mine. Wish I had.

The tech snobs are so arrogant it’s baffling.
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I agree.....but you ain't exactly humble either. LMAO
 
Every time this comes up its either you are for one or the other. Lines are drawn and then everyone gets pissed off. It doesn't have to be this way, we all like our cars and make decisions based on what we want or like. As I have said many times, I do not hate on carbs or those running them, but too many times it doesn't go the other way; someone wants to argue why carbs are better; for them this might be the case but in general no so much. Not saying anyone is stupid or anything else, just saying that newer technology has advantages that many want to take advantage of.
 
70chall440 said:
I never said anything about being smarter because I prefer EFI, but the FACT is that a carb cannot adjust itself; its a "set it and forget it" device, that is a FACT. Yes you can tune them, but to do so means disassembling them (several times) to change jets, power valves, etc. until you get it right, that is also a FACT. So if you want to drive your car somewhere that has a significant change in altitude, oh wait you will lose power because the carb cannot adjust itself... and that is a FACT.

Look, you can hate on technology all you like, you are also free to run whatever you like on your car, but to essentially say that technology is bad and anyone who takes advantage of it is falling for some type of BS is just wrong. If you want to run a carb and points, knock yourself out, doesn't mean everyone else has to. Same thing the other way, if "everyone" is running newer technology, you are free not to do so; but do not try and convince people that newer technology is bad because it isn't, and that sir is a FACT.
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Did I say ALL technology was bad? You’d be surprised how far ahead of the curve I am on man things.

I guess WJ is a moron, because he said he went from Denver to Sonoma and NEVER changed a jet. A carb is a pressure differential device. It IS self adjusting unless it’s so far off it can’t compensate one way or the other enough.

In fact, if I can get a question in this week I’ll ask WJ about it and he can repeat what he wrote.
 
SLOPAR72 said:
Who pointed directly at you...... But here's one. **** you! Tell ya what Mr. know it all.... Why don't you take your meds, go play with your Recue dogs and live your Dinosaur life......

Damn, ignore just saved me lol.....

JW
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Thanks pussy. Block me.
 
I will admit, the thought of a two barrel Holley Sniper on a hot Slant Six intrigues me. My problem here is, I have no one locally who might come give a hand with tuning were I to get in over my head. It's a big investment......for me anyway and I'm not taking that chance. Even with all the experience I HAVE, I cannot AFFORD to end up with a box full of **** if it doesn't work out.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I agree.....but you ain't exactly humble either. LMAO
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I am humble to the point these arrogant pricks put words in my mouth and say things I never said. Go back and look at jpar running his mouth. He said I said EFI is JUNK and I never said that.

EFI isn’t the answer to everything. It’s not. And to claim I’m stupid or too old to use EFI have no idea what I do. **** them all.
 
70chall440 said:
Every time this comes up its either you are for one or the other. Lines are drawn and then everyone gets pissed off. It doesn't have to be this way, we all like our cars and make decisions based on what we want or like. As I have said many times, I do not hate on carbs or those running them, but too many times it doesn't go the other way; someone wants to argue why carbs are better; for them this might be the case but in general no so much. Not saying anyone is stupid or anything else, just saying that newer technology has advantages that many want to take advantage of.
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Yeah, I call bullshit. That’s why these threads get sideways. The EFI or die guys think they are the smartest, brightest and best tuners to ever grab a wrench and the rest of us are just knuckle dragging morons.

I hope the OP buys EFI and it works for him. I swear to God it’s hard to find anyone more arrogant than an EFI or die guy.
 
yellow rose said:
I am humble to the point these arrogant pricks put words in my mouth and say things I never said. Go back and look at jpar running his mouth. He said I said EFI is JUNK and I never said that.

EFI isn’t the answer to everything. It’s not. And to claim I’m stupid or too old to use EFI have no idea what I do. **** them all.
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Welcome to the club. They've been doin it to me for years. You have too a time or two. I'm gonna keep doin what I'm doin though.
 
yellow rose said:
Yeah, I call bullshit. That’s why these threads get sideways. The EFI or die guys think they are the smartest, brightest and best tuners to ever grab a wrench and the rest of us are just knuckle dragging morons.

I hope the OP buys EFI and it works for him. I swear to God it’s hard to find anyone more arrogant than an EFI or die guy.
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....and some of them could not diagnose a carbureted engine problem to save their souls. Their laptop does all their work.
 
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