Another "Is Fuel Injection a Worthwhile Upgrade?" Question

[yellow rose]

After re-reading this entire post, again, I have come to the conclusion that if I ever do install aftermarket EFI, I'm keeping the hood closed and my mouth shut.

Don’t do that. Support your decision. I don’t make fun of anyone with EFI. Or even a powerglide, because God knows if you can use a pop up toaster you can tune the chassis with a powerglide, but I don’t make fun of them.

What I don’t do is tell everyone a carb is the only option or that EFI has no place. Neither one is the perfect solution. What is irritating is the guys who think EFI will solve everything, including war, poverty and world hunger. That’s just ridiculous.

So open your hood and brag on your EFI. Not a damn thing wrong with that.

 

[goldduster318]

That’s exactly what happened. Since the OE’s never fight back on government overreach you get stupid **** like catalytic converters, which are the solution to something that’s never been an issue, unless you think we have no oil left (peak oil lie) or that the oceans will turn to blood in 2001 (or whatever year that idiot Ted Danson and a bunch of other communists were puking out their faces years ago) that didn’t happen, or if you think the ice caps are shrinking (a they are not).

If you think like that then you deserve CAFE standards and all the junk we deal with because of it.

CAFE is the corporate average fuel economy standard (hence the acronym) and EPA tailpipe regulations are why catalytic converters show up. You don't even recognize that they are separate things. Health is effected by air pollution. There are doomsday people but the air in LA or Chicago would look like Shanghai or Beijing if you were in charge. The smog was really bad in those places in the 70s and even I remember Chicago not being super good in the early 90s and it's actually significantly better now. So the fact that you hate this stuff doesn't really matter. It's not going back.

Dude, just stop. Anyone with the IQ of a grape KNOWS that OHC stuff with big diameter buckets aren’t the same as OHV pushrod stuff.

Just damn. More bullshit.

Cats and roller lifters go together. Simple as that.

So which is it? They aren't rollers. You never said it has to be the same. I mean you love blanket statements and contradictions. It still needs the oil film not to scuff

Also, you run roller cams all the time in what? It's kind of like tuning modern EFI, not sure why we have any reason to believe you know that. Carbs, yes, I'm fine with that.

Cats and roller lifters go together. Simple as that.

I really don’t care how many guys build EFI. I hope everyone does it. Still no skin off my ***.

The OP’s original question was is it worth it. I said no, and some of **** yourselves blind. I sat and by that, and call bullshit on carb icing, idle issues and that a carb can’t be made to compete with EFI relatively easy. In fact, I know there are a couple of guys here who have worked with guys on this forum through PM’s to work out carb issues and from what I hear, with worthwhile results.

Carb icing is a real thing, especially when you don't have any of the anti-icing stuff like a heat riser, exhaust crossover, heated intake tube to the air cleaner. When your transfer slots are frozen the car runs like absolute total ****, its happened to me. They teach about carb icing when they are training for a pilot's license since it's even more likely to happen in that application. Its 50F or less and over 80% humidity here A LOT.
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/carburetor-icing

I have no doubts that you can help someone work through carb issues with enough time and enough screwing around and improved results. They just have big drawbacks for a lot of people, but you said it's all bullshit. Not offering a solution. There is a topic floating around somewhere here where I asked about fixing any of the issues with transition on this very forum way back when and only ONE person did anything to help with the IFRs and air bleeds that got the thing to work effectively to the point where it even worked when warm in the first place. The rest I figured out on my own. This is why I think the average guy will have a much easier time with EFI so they can enjoy their car instead of spending the next 3 weeks messing with it to get a halfway decent tune up on it for a warm/dry day.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I run roller cams all the time. The topic was why the OE’s went to them. It was because the government decided that catalytic converters would save the world, but the phosphorus and zinc coat the catalyst and kill it. So...to fix that folly the answer was a reduction in both of those components. And when you do that, you need to run a roller lifter because the flat lifters won’t survive.

That has nothing to do with roller cams in non OE appilcations. It’s great trying to have a conversation with people who twist everything around (not pointing at you RRR) and turn a topic about OE’s and why they did something and making it look like I said roller cams have no place in anything. It’s the way these people think they win.

The OE’s didn’t go to roller lifters for “area under the curve” or because they wanted to extend engine life. They didn’t care about engine life because once the warranty is up the OE’s don’t give a damn about anything. They did the roller lifter because they were forced into it.

My next engine (sadly) will have roller lifters, unless by some stroke of luck I find a set of mushroom lifters that don’t cost about what a good set of rollers cost. I’d rather rune the mushroom lifters because I want to net somewhere around .720ish lift on that engine and no way can you do that on a .904 lifter and expect it to live.

So unless a miracle happens that engine will get roller lifters and all the crapola that that requires.

I bet Oregon Cam may have some shrooms. Call Ken and see.

 

[yellow rose]

I bet Oregon Cam may have some shrooms. Call Ken and see.

Already did. Last time I asked Kenny about them (about a year ago) he said he ain’t seen any of those in years.

 

[yellow rose]

CAFE is the corporate average fuel economy standard (hence the acronym) and EPA tailpipe regulations are why catalytic converters show up. You don't even recognize that they are separate things. Health is effected by air pollution. There are doomsday people but the air in LA or Chicago would look like Shanghai or Beijing if you were in charge. The smog was really bad in those places in the 70s and even I remember Chicago not being super good in the early 90s and it's actually significantly better now. So the fact that you hate this stuff doesn't really matter. It's not going back.




So which is it? They aren't rollers. You never said it has to be the same. I mean you love blanket statements and contradictions. It still needs the oil film not to scuff

Also, you run roller cams all the time in what? It's kind of like tuning modern EFI, not sure why we have any reason to believe you know that. Carbs, yes, I'm fine with that.


Carb icing is a real thing, especially when you don't have any of the anti-icing stuff like a heat riser, exhaust crossover, heated intake tube to the air cleaner. When your transfer slots are frozen the car runs like absolute total ****, its happened to me. They teach about carb icing when they are training for a pilot's license since it's even more likely to happen in that application. Its 50F or less and over 80% humidity here A LOT.
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/carburetor-icing

I have no doubts that you can help someone work through carb issues with enough time and enough screwing around and improved results. They just have big drawbacks for a lot of people, but you said it's all bullshit. Not offering a solution. There is a topic floating around somewhere here where I asked about fixing any of the issues with transition on this very forum way back when and only ONE person did anything to help with the IFRs and air bleeds that got the thing to work effectively to the point where it even worked when warm in the first place. The rest I figured out on my own. This is why I think the average guy will have a much easier time with EFI so they can enjoy their car instead of spending the next 3 weeks messing with it to get a halfway decent tune up on it for a warm/dry day.

Once again, CAFE standards. Get that? It’s all part of the same issue. If you think tail pipe emissions are killing the earth ride a bike like they have to in China.

So you have carb icing issues. It’s a good thing that EFI came along just as the earths temperature started to drop. Otherwise, no one would have been able to drive anywhere with-laying around in Stock Eliminator with it, he put 2 x 4’s on it. My mom would take us to school in it. I had to go out and scrape ice and snow off the windows. The old man would put SNOW TIRES on it every winter. 4.56 gears, a 4 speed and the 2 x 4’s and my MOM could drive it. Never iced up. I can’t explain how others get carb icing, but how did people go anywhere before EFI?

I get why people have carb issues. Virtually EVERY book is wrong. All of them. Guys read the books and try to do as the book says and it sucks. That’s not a carb issue. Like I said before, Holley is the biggest reason why people are carb ignorant. They’ve had decades to develop the education of the public on carburation, and yet, they didn’t.

They decided to leave that up to the aftermarket, and no one wants to give away free what they make money on.

Again, CAFE and if you want to separate the two the unconstitutional EPA, the giant unelected bureaucracy that makes law and is wholly unaccountable to anyone are the reasons why we have what we have today.

The earth is fine with the exception of the fools who think man is destroying the planet, and the same fools will accept any and every “remedy” to save something that doesn’t need saved, just to feel good about themselves.

EDIT: what do YOU run roller cams in? Unreal.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Already did. Last time I asked Kenny about them (about a year ago) he said he ain’t seen any of those in years.

@Bighead440 you got any shroom lifters you wanna part with?

 

[threewood]

As someone who was a die hard carb guy that just went efi I have to say I like efi.

Went from an 800cfm Edelbrock AVS2 to a Holley Sniper and have had no issues with the efi system. It starts right up, afr is more stable throughout the driving range, and throttle response is just as impressive. I'm not using it to control timing.

Any issue I had wasn't related to the Sniper but ancillary systems. I had to replace my in tank Walbro 255/lph with a Walbro 450/lph because the former wasn't keeping up. And I'm upgrading things like the fuel lines (going to ptfe 6 an line and fittings as well as a better alternator).

I have zero regrets. I am not a tuner guy so I have others check out my logs and make suggestions but self tune seems to do the trick. It is fascinating to use. And I can watch all the sensors real time.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I never said that you said anything other than what you did, however your arguments are definitely slanted one way. I don't think you are dumb or stupid, you own Mopars so obviously you have something positive going on in the thought department.

Lets approach this from another angle; carbs, EFI, points, Electronic ignition, etc. are all just tools to be used to achieve one thing or another. None of them are bad, none of them are superior in all respects. Like any tool, the user has to figure out what will get the job done for him/her. I completely recognize the simplicity and functionality of carbs, points, etc. but I really like the versatility and general ease of use of new technology; doesn't mean its "all that", just means I like it.

I have met people who have no idea how to use or tune a carb which seems very odd having grown up with them and while at present I prefer EFI, I am glad I still understand how a carb works (same with points). I do not believe that "old technology" is bad in any way, in fact in some applications it is probably superior. This doesn't make it better or worse, it makes it the right tool for the job.

Anyone here who is slamming someone because of what they know (or don't know) and what their preference is (or isn't) is an idiot and narrow minded.

But the EFI guys arguments are also slanted, no?

 

[RustyRatRod]

As someone who was a die hard carb guy that just went efi I have to say I like efi.

Went from an 800cfm Edelbrock AVS2 to a Holley Sniper and have had no issues with the efi system. It starts right up, afr is more stable throughout the driving range, and throttle response is just as impressive. I'm not using it to control timing.

Any issue I had wasn't related to the Sniper but ancillary systems. I had to replace my in tank Walbro 255/lph with a Walbro 450/lph because the former wasn't keeping up. And I'm upgrading things like the fuel lines (going to ptfe 6 an line and fittings as well as a better alternator).

I have zero regrets. I am not a tuner guy so I have others check out my logs and make suggestions but self tune seems to do the trick. It is fascinating to use. And I can watch all the sensors real time.
View attachment 1715664205

IF you want to ever take it to the track, you better get those fuel lines off the firewall. They'll put you RIGHT back on the trailer....or invite you to leave. I do like your install. Looks very clean.

 

[j par]

Well this thread has went on for pages since the last time I checked...
There seems to be a lot of missing post that must be from people that I have on ignore...
I hope nobody's throwing temper tantrums and thinking they can prove their point by sprouting out race car driver names out of a magazine lol...
You got to look back and find out where the nasty name-calling started lol...
Anyways all this conversation about EFI really gets me wanting to try it..
I appreciate the thread...

 

[j par]

I bet Oregon Cam may have some shrooms. Call Ken and see.

I think that's what I have... Ken said something about barrel lifters?

 

[RustyRatRod]

Well this thread has went on for pages since the last time I checked...
There seems to be a lot of missing post that must be from people that I have on ignore...
I hope nobody's throwing temper tantrums and thinking they can prove their point by sprouting out race car driver names out of a magazine lol...
You got to look back and find out where the nasty name-calling started lol...
Anyways all this conversation about EFI really gets me wanting to try it..
I appreciate the thread...

I looked back and saw it started basically when one member told the other to "**** off". Before that, it was actually surprisingly civil.

 

[j par]

I looked back and saw it started basically when one member told the other to "**** off". Before that, it was actually surprisingly civil.

Yeah I think that was about the point I skipped ahead...

 

[j par]

It was really my fault I unlocked the ignore button thinking there would be some intelligent conversation and some good counterpoints but it was just all huff and puff...

 

[yellow rose]

It was really my fault I unlocked the ignore button thinking there would be some intelligent conversation and some good counterpoints but it was just all huff and puff...

Yeah, don’t add anything, just come here and run your mouth.

And, you don’t have mushroom lifters. You don’t even know what they are. You need to go sit at the kiddie table. The adults are having a discussing that you can’t follow.

 

[threewood]

IF you want to ever take it to the track, you better get those fuel lines off the firewall. They'll put you RIGHT back on the trailer....or invite you to leave. I do like your install. Looks very clean.

I don't have a track within 2.5 hours so I doubt I'll ever take it. Those hardlines were replaced with ptfe 6 an lines.

 

[threewood]

Well this thread has went on for pages since the last time I checked...
There seems to be a lot of missing post that must be from people that I have on ignore...
I hope nobody's throwing temper tantrums and thinking they can prove their point by sprouting out race car driver names out of a magazine lol...
You got to look back and find out where the nasty name-calling started lol...
Anyways all this conversation about EFI really gets me wanting to try it..
I appreciate the thread...

Lots of purse swinging in here, right? Lol

Like I said, I just got my Sniper setup a few weeks ago and really like it. I had the money and I like tinkering with my car. As with anything aftermarket Mopar there is some tinkering to be done. Throttle brackets are bothersome, wiring can be bothersome. I already had the in tank pump and o2 sensor installed. The first time it fired I was all smiles.

Anyone who adds it for more power is wrong. I did it because I drive my car a lot and the gas here sucks. Closed system is more appealing to me.

 

[j par]

Lots of purse swinging in here, right? Lol

Like I said, I just got my Sniper setup a few weeks ago and really like it. I had the money and I like tinkering with my car. As with anything aftermarket Mopar there is some tinkering to be done. Throttle brackets are bothersome, wiring can be bothersome. I already had the in tank pump and o2 sensor installed. The first time it fired I was all smiles.

Anyone who adds it for more power is wrong. I did it because I drive my car a lot and the gas here sucks. Closed system is more appealing to me.

LOL.. purse swinging......
Yeah that one got me LOL...

I've kind of almost ran out of things to do on the car. And this would be a great project. I'd be able to learn all about it as I don't know much except for theory..
I announced to my wife next winter will be the winter that I tear the car down for paint which is basically the only thing that it needs. It needs very little if any bodywork just paint. But if I do it I'm tearing the whole entire car down...
Her answer was and you bitched about me getting a pair of slippers! LOL...
It'll just be a matter of how well I do this year financially. If I can save enough for the paint job and EFI that would be great..

 

[70chall440]

But the EFI guys arguments are also slanted, no?

They certainly can be because most car guys are passionate about what they think is the right answer, doesn't make them right or wrong. I guess my point here is that you would expect someone who believes something to be adamant about it, to take offense at that point of view is a waste of time and juvenile. I have tried to be civil, have conceded to the other POV but some here evidently want it complete capitulation in order to be satisfied.

It is amazing to me how analogous this discussion is to the current national situation; you are either for something or you are the enemy; ridiculous. Likewise, those stating that the other side is "arrogant" and incapable of understanding the "truth" are doing exactly that.

If you love carburetors then run them, its a free country but don't try and slam anyone else for wanting or even suggesting that there is another option. Having tried to concede and respect other points of view only to receive argument, criticism and shall I say ignorance, I will state this; people can say whatever they like but the fact is that EFI is in fact superior technology in pretty much every way. While you are screwing around with jets, metering rods, passage ways, etc. someone else is clicking a few keys to accomplish the same thing only better. Of course if you just drive at WOT than a carb might be the way to go but that is debatable as well because a good EFI system will control spark and fuel something no carb can do by itself.

So yeah, I am saying EFI is better but unlike some others (not you Rusty) I am not hating on running a carb, if that is what someone wants to do good on them but don't think you are convincing anyone else especially someone who is using EFI.

 

[70chall440]

It was really my fault I unlocked the ignore button thinking there would be some intelligent conversation and some good counterpoints but it was just all huff and puff...

I came on here trying to offer some insight from my prospective but got ambushed, but its all good, its just words on a screen... LOL Nothing like bitching about being called arrogant or ignorant while doing exactly the same thing. I should have stopped at the "F U" statement as that was pretty much the apex of the conversation, but it is a bit amusing I have to admit. Nothing like trying to force your will via the internet... LOL

 

[goldduster318]

Once again, CAFE standards. Get that? It’s all part of the same issue. If you think tail pipe emissions are killing the earth ride a bike like they have to in China.

So you have carb icing issues. It’s a good thing that EFI came along just as the earths temperature started to drop. Otherwise, no one would have been able to drive anywhere with-laying around in Stock Eliminator with it, he put 2 x 4’s on it. My mom would take us to school in it. I had to go out and scrape ice and snow off the windows. The old man would put SNOW TIRES on it every winter. 4.56 gears, a 4 speed and the 2 x 4’s and my MOM could drive it. Never iced up. I can’t explain how others get carb icing, but how did people go anywhere before EFI?

I get why people have carb issues. Virtually EVERY book is wrong. All of them. Guys read the books and try to do as the book says and it sucks. That’s not a carb issue. Like I said before, Holley is the biggest reason why people are carb ignorant. They’ve had decades to develop the education of the public on carburation, and yet, they didn’t.

They decided to leave that up to the aftermarket, and no one wants to give away free what they make money on.

Again, CAFE and if you want to separate the two the unconstitutional EPA, the giant unelected bureaucracy that makes law and is wholly unaccountable to anyone are the reasons why we have what we have today.

The earth is fine with the exception of the fools who think man is destroying the planet, and the same fools will accept any and every “remedy” to save something that doesn’t need saved, just to feel good about themselves.

EDIT: what do YOU run roller cams in? Unreal.

Honestly the ignorance about air pollution and especially China where they alone sell 25M+ vehicles a year (its roughly 15M a year normally US/Canada/Mexico combined) speak for itself. People will get sick and die thanks to tailpipe emissions, especially if we only had to meet 1970 standards today. They had no standard whatsoever in China for a long time and you could barely see the sky at all. I look forward to your supreme court case also.

Honestly you will be less likely to have carb icing with dual quads or a really large carburetor than a small one. The amount of physical space that needs to freeze plus the reduced pressure drop alone would reduce the likelyhood. The reason why the ice forms is just down to physics. If you cool air, the water will come out of suspension, and if it gets cold enough it will freeze on a surface. That is what causes it. So since a venturi creates a low pressure area that draws the fuel in, and the fuel being vaporized both drop the temperature in the general area of the throttle blades substantially, the air temperature in my 40 degrees F 80% humidity scenario would drop, maybe 25-30 degrees in an average carburetor in this general area. Now, on a P-v-t diagram for water you've now reached the point where the water can be no longer suspended in the air and therefore comes out as a liquid and deposits on a surface (just like the beer can getting condensation on it during the summer). When there is not sufficient heat to keep the carb body above 32 F, then ice will start to form. This is the main reason for the heat riser, exhaust crossover, and that tube that goes to the bottom of the air cleaner snorkel from the driver's exhaust manifold on a bone stock A-body. It just warms it up enough to keep that from happening. It's covered also in that hemmings article though maybe not to the level of detail needed.

As for roller cams:
My 340 has a custom roller cam from Lunati in it - when I was looking to build the engine the general idea is to learn from a newer engine (an LS1 is a good analogous engine to a 340). I'd have to dig out the paperwork on the cost but it was maybe $700 with the cam and lifters given that I was getting it through someone with a wholesale account, I already had pushrods since I bought out pretty much the entire top end of someone's race engine that they were upgrading full race heads, I can't remember if it was W9's or what anymore, to get the edelbrocks. It just happened to be right because that also had a hydraulic roller in it. Basic edelbrock heads with a tiny amount shaved off the deck and a better valve job - wanted to take advantage of what they could do. This cam doesn't need a bronze gear or anything since it's cut on the same blanks as a towing cam for an 85-91 LA 318. It's really a nice setup. Finished out with some beehive springs, custom flat top very light forged pistons, which honestly weren't that much either in the grand scheme of things, K1 H-beams, stock crank, at the time had an edebrock air gap, 750 AN QFT carb. It made 470.9hp at 6000 rpm and 455 lb-ft at 4500 rpm IIRC and 400 lb-ft or more during the entire pull from 2900-6200 rpm. Anyone can argue for days that you can make dynos say anything you want but the water temp was fully warm and it was a warm-ish day. Other than changing to the EFI, its been together almost 8 years now, still wonderful, can drive up a moderate hill in 6th at 1400 rpm with the EFI. Its a 227/231 duration @ 0.050 .530/.530 110 LSA cam, I'd have to find the other numbers.

On the other side, I have a friend who wanted to get into owning a car like this, he bought a 71 Demon, which the car is a little ratty with a knocking slant six. We tried to make the cheapest decent engine we possibly could for the car given that he just likes driving it and is going to fix on it little by little as the years go by. So, given what we have an abundance of 5.2 Magnums in this vicinity due to the massive amount of rusted out 93-01 Dodge trucks there are, we were able to find a $200 longblock that someone rebuilt and tried to stuff into a dakota in place of a V6, but never got it running. We swapped in a Lunati cam they sell for an 86-91 roller 318/360 engine with a long snout. I don't remember the exact spec but its something like 213/217 duration at 0.050 and we have "free" 1.6:1 rockers and no need for new lifters given that the rollers were already there. We ended up using the heads from my old 360 that had magnum swap as well as the air gap, 600 holley VS, LA front cover, etc. It's good for what it is, honestly was better than that low compression 360. It's an automatic car with a stock converter, but we can't complain for an $1100 total investment engine. The thing has even been rally crossed. 5 years together already.

 

[67Dart273]

Anyone who adds it for more power is wrong. I did it because I drive my car a lot and the gas here sucks. .

One of the few basic and true statements in the last 3 days

 

[j par]

When the EFI says that its power adder capable does that mean I can plum my nitrous directly into the throttle body or it will just sense my cheater plate through the O2 sensor? I assume at this point I wouldn't need the fuel side of my nitrous and just allow the fuel injection to compensate?...

 

[RustyRatRod]

They certainly can be because most car guys are passionate about what they think is the right answer, doesn't make them right or wrong. I guess my point here is that you would expect someone who believes something to be adamant about it, to take offense at that point of view is a waste of time and juvenile. I have tried to be civil, have conceded to the other POV but some here evidently want it complete capitulation in order to be satisfied.

It is amazing to me how analogous this discussion is to the current national situation; you are either for something or you are the enemy; ridiculous. Likewise, those stating that the other side is "arrogant" and incapable of understanding the "truth" are doing exactly that.

If you love carburetors then run them, its a free country but don't try and slam anyone else for wanting or even suggesting that there is another option. Having tried to concede and respect other points of view only to receive argument, criticism and shall I say ignorance, I will state this; people can say whatever they like but the fact is that EFI is in fact superior technology in pretty much every way. While you are screwing around with jets, metering rods, passage ways, etc. someone else is clicking a few keys to accomplish the same thing only better. Of course if you just drive at WOT than a carb might be the way to go but that is debatable as well because a good EFI system will control spark and fuel something no carb can do by itself.

So yeah, I am saying EFI is better but unlike some others (not you Rusty) I am not hating on running a carb, if that is what someone wants to do good on them but don't think you are convincing anyone else especially someone who is using EFI.

I try to not be that guy. Although I'll probably not try EFI, I remain open to it if I say win the lottery, a rich relative leaves me a pile of money or if a sack of money falls out of a Wells Fargo truck in front of me.

I'll add this.....although somewhat unrelated to the conversation......we have guys right here on this forum who could build some real contenders given the resources some big names have. I promise you, had I resources to buy the best stuff, I could build a 750 plus HP N/A engine. Not bragging at all, I just know I could do it. ....and there are a lot of guys on here who are WAY smarter than I am. We have a good group here. Probably the nest on the net. The last thing we should be doin is hatin on each other.

 

[318willrun]

I've seen most of the conversation is about two things: Performance and Drivability. How about a 3rd dimension.... reliability.
I have always felt more confident in roadside or small town fixes with carbs. Let's say, you had to take your kids, grandkids, or whatever on a 8,000 mile round trip from Texas to Alaska and back in late fall where it will be freezing at nights.... and much travel will be in remote areas with little help. Would you prefer, per say, a 600 eddy or Holley with a mechanical fuel pump or Sniper EFI under the hood of your classic?

I drive my classics across many states, dodging big cities as much as possible. I love being out where the coyote's howl and sage brush rolls. I personally feel better with the simplicity of a carb and mechanical fuel pump. I can throw a few dollars worth of a few things and be gone. Pliers, screw driver, and about 3 wrenches and I can remove and replace just about everything you can see under the hood.