Another "Is Fuel Injection a Worthwhile Upgrade?" Question

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318willrun said:
I've seen most of the conversation is about two things: Performance and Drivability. How about a 3rd dimension.... reliability.
I have always felt more confident in roadside or small town fixes with carbs. Let's say, you had to take your kids, grandkids, or whatever on a 8,000 mile round trip from Texas to Alaska and back in late fall where it will be freezing at nights.... and much travel will be in remote areas with little help. Would you prefer, per say, a 600 eddy or Holley with a mechanical fuel pump or Sniper EFI under the hood of your classic?

I drive my classics across many states, dodging big cities as much as possible. I love being out where the coyote's howl and sage brush rolls. I personally feel better with the simplicity of a carb and mechanical fuel pump. I can throw a few dollars worth of a few things and be gone. Pliers, screw driver, and about 3 wrenches and I can remove and replace just about everything you can see under the hood.
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Think of how many millions of carbureted vehicles traversed Route 66 long before any fuel injection was in the mainstream.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Think of how many millions of carbureted vehicles traversed Route 66 long before any fuel injection was in the mainstream.
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In 2018, we trekked route 66 in our '77 Ramcharger. We took the "old route/original" 66 as much as possible. Single highways, in no-mans land. We passed through 9 states on that trip, coming back up through Dodge City, KS. In 2019 it took us up through the U.P. of Michigan, all the way to Drummond Island. Our '77 Van we just bought a few months back has already been in 5 states. Reliability is HUGE on my list.
 
I gotta be honest, I took it that YR was saying the OE manufacturers would still be using flat tappets and carbs if not for all the regulations. I agree they would do whatever was cheapest for the most profit. I think EFI and carbs have their place. I don't think either is the end all be all for anybody. Carbs can't be too antiquated or nobody would make them, and EFI can't be too technologically involved or they wouldn't be bought by the common man. I do think that people who complain "my carb/efi blows" probably didn't take the time to learn how to properly tune either one.
 
j par said:
When the EFI says that its power adder capable does that mean I can plum my nitrous directly into the throttle body or it will just sense my cheater plate through the O2 sensor? I assume at this point I wouldn't need the fuel side of my nitrous and just allow the fuel injection to compensate?...
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It will have programming available to change AFR. I believe the Holley Sniper system I have actually has a Built in NOS controller built in. That is an interesting question though. If you could increase fuel in theory you could run a dry system. AndyF will know the answer to this and he may chime in on it....

JW
 
318willrun said:
I've seen most of the conversation is about two things: Performance and Drivability. How about a 3rd dimension.... reliability.
I have always felt more confident in roadside or small town fixes with carbs. Let's say, you had to take your kids, grandkids, or whatever on a 8,000 mile round trip from Texas to Alaska and back in late fall where it will be freezing at nights.... and much travel will be in remote areas with little help. Would you prefer, per say, a 600 eddy or Holley with a mechanical fuel pump or Sniper EFI under the hood of your classic?

I drive my classics across many states, dodging big cities as much as possible. I love being out where the coyote's howl and sage brush rolls. I personally feel better with the simplicity of a carb and mechanical fuel pump. I can throw a few dollars worth of a few things and be gone. Pliers, screw driver, and about 3 wrenches and I can remove and replace just about everything you can see under the hood.
Click to expand...
See post 138 for your parts availability...
number one you don't live in Texas and you're not planning on driving to Alaska and back with your grandkids LOL..
in 2017 we drove from Oregon to Colorado to Michigan to Florida back to Colorado and back to Oregon and it was just over seven thousand miles lol.. fuel injected and not a problem in the motor home...lol..
if you feel cozy and safe with a pair of pliers a pair of points a screwdriver and a carburetor more power to you.... There's no argument that's what you feel cozy with and happy with...
I just don't understand how it can't be reliable and even more so..
 
One other thing before I go on any huge long trip across the country I make sure my towing insurance as well paid up and my credit card has plenty of availability. If my junk breaks down in the middle of nowhere.. carbureted or fuel injected I'm calling the flatbed an ordering up a hotel room then consider it part of the adventure....
 
318willrun said:
I've seen most of the conversation is about two things: Performance and Drivability. How about a 3rd dimension.... reliability.
I have always felt more confident in roadside or small town fixes with carbs. Let's say, you had to take your kids, grandkids, or whatever on a 8,000 mile round trip from Texas to Alaska and back in late fall where it will be freezing at nights.... and much travel will be in remote areas with little help. Would you prefer, per say, a 600 eddy or Holley with a mechanical fuel pump or Sniper EFI under the hood of your classic?

I drive my classics across many states, dodging big cities as much as possible. I love being out where the coyote's howl and sage brush rolls. I personally feel better with the simplicity of a carb and mechanical fuel pump. I can throw a few dollars worth of a few things and be gone. Pliers, screw driver, and about 3 wrenches and I can remove and replace just about everything you can see under the hood.
Click to expand...

I totally see and understand your point. That is where I was previously. Carbs are stupid simple devices. Not much to them really.

Same can be said with points and condensers. Simple devices. I added a Pertronix to my 62 Belvedere ages ago to see what I was missing. And I have had trouble free miles ever since and it runs better without me having to adjust the points.

I stepped outside of my comfort zone and tried it. Lots of guys have a sack full of spare parts in the trunk (myself included) to be prepared in case of disaster. I've never needed it. The VR, the points, ballast resistor, plugs, fuel line, etc, etc.

I don't worry about all that anymore. I just drive my car and enjoy.
 
SLOPAR72 said:
It will have programming available to change AFR. I believe the Holley Sniper system I have actually has a Built in NOS controller built in. That is an interesting question though. If you could increase fuel in theory you could run a dry system. AndyF will know the answer to this and he may chime in on it....

JW
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And this kind of leads to maybe one of the things andyF was talking about..
All the things that I bought would easily add up to an EFI system...
 
threewood said:
I totally see and understand your point. That is where I was previously. Carbs are stupid simple devices. Not much to them really.

Same can be said with points and condensers. Simple devices. I added a Pertronix to my 62 Belvedere ages ago to see what I was missing. And I have had trouble free miles ever since and it runs better without me having to adjust the points.

I stepped outside of my comfort zone and tried it. Lots of guys have a sack full of spare parts in the trunk (myself included) to be prepared in case of disaster. I've never needed it. The VR, the points, ballast resistor, plugs, fuel line, etc, etc.

I don't worry about all that anymore. I just drive my car and enjoy.
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I carry a stubby screwdriver for adjusting my carburetors.. if my crap ever breaks down hagerty is getting the first call LOL... I have gadgets and wires to boggle the mind it's too much to worry about.. so I don't...
 
j par said:
When the EFI says that its power adder capable does that mean I can plum my nitrous directly into the throttle body or it will just sense my cheater plate through the O2 sensor? I assume at this point I wouldn't need the fuel side of my nitrous and just allow the fuel injection to compensate?...
Click to expand...

The Super Sniper EFI has power adder capabilities. The Sniper EFI does not. Check out the specs.
Holley Sniper EFI 550-520 Holley Sniper EFI 4150 Super Sniper 650
 
Let's see for the price of two brand new Street Demon carburetors $600 on sale, the entire fuel side of my nitrous... $100 tank $200 + lines $150 fuel pump $50 pressure gauge $35 filter $35 low pressure switch..
Wouldn't need a window switch $55 timing retard $169 electric fan heat control $45... 2 step launch control can't remember how much...
Wideband O2 sensor $169...
Don't have a control for the AC idle switch and would have that.. certainly can't completely program all this stuff without a lot of hand work.. Jets metering rods springs for the carburetor and changing springs and stops in the distributor..

I'm assuming I can get like a stock Magnum distributor and I'm not sure about the ignition box?
If I could sell all that crap above for half the price I would be 3/4 of the way there...
 
318willrun said:
In 2018, we trekked route 66 in our '77 Ramcharger. We took the "old route/original" 66 as much as possible. Single highways, in no-mans land. We passed through 9 states on that trip, coming back up through Dodge City, KS. In 2019 it took us up through the U.P. of Michigan, all the way to Drummond Island. Our '77 Van we just bought a few months back has already been in 5 states. Reliability is HUGE on my list.
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I bet that was a big load of fun. Yeah I'm all about reliable too. In all the time I've been driving her, Vixen has let us down once. The 3-4 shift rod fell off because some dumbass didn't bend the cotter pin enough. I wonder who that was? We were in Gray when it happened and I only had 1st and reverse. So I stopped in a parking lot and crawled under and put her in second and drove home in second gear. ....but it really wasn't her fault, was it? lol
 
RustyRatRod said:
I try to not be that guy. Although I'll probably not try EFI, I remain open to it if I say win the lottery, a rich relative leaves me a pile of money or if a sack of money falls out of a Wells Fargo truck in front of me.

I'll add this.....although somewhat unrelated to the conversation......we have guys right here on this forum who could build some real contenders given the resources some big names have. I promise you, had I resources to buy the best stuff, I could build a 750 plus HP N/A engine. Not bragging at all, I just know I could do it. ....and there are a lot of guys on here who are WAY smarter than I am. We have a good group here. Probably the nest on the net. The last thing we should be doin is hatin on each other.
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I agree with you (the last part). I think that if you tried EFI you would like it, I know I do. I agree that the cost of getting into EFI can be prohibitive over a carb and again, not at all hating on carbs or those that use them.
 
318willrun said:
I've seen most of the conversation is about two things: Performance and Drivability. How about a 3rd dimension.... reliability.
I have always felt more confident in roadside or small town fixes with carbs. Let's say, you had to take your kids, grandkids, or whatever on a 8,000 mile round trip from Texas to Alaska and back in late fall where it will be freezing at nights.... and much travel will be in remote areas with little help. Would you prefer, per say, a 600 eddy or Holley with a mechanical fuel pump or Sniper EFI under the hood of your classic?

I drive my classics across many states, dodging big cities as much as possible. I love being out where the coyote's howl and sage brush rolls. I personally feel better with the simplicity of a carb and mechanical fuel pump. I can throw a few dollars worth of a few things and be gone. Pliers, screw driver, and about 3 wrenches and I can remove and replace just about everything you can see under the hood.
Click to expand...

I mean if that's what you're comfortable with, go for it. Each individual EFI part outside the ECU in anything we are talking about is a brutally simple device, there are just more of them (think of injectors or individual coils as redundancy, lose 1 cyl vs all) vs the carb being full of tiny orifices that are sensitive to dirt, gaskets that can leak, seals that break down in ethanol gas, distributor caps cracking, I mean you could come up with all kinds of failure modes, most of us have seen them also. I literally don't even have a cap and rotor anymore, so that failure point is completely gone. Generally EFI tends to eliminate "wear" parts or things that are sensitive to dirt.

The EFI parts, short of the ECU or the crank sensor taking a dump and you not being able to get one, you'll get home for sure. Of course there's almost an unending amount of ways you could integrate an EFI system at this point so, you can make it as high or low tech as you choose. Fuel pumps, you can get those at part stores. Drop the tank or put a hatch in the floor if you want.

The crank sensor is basically the same thing as the magnetic pickup in an electronic ignition distributor, I don't think that's a terribly failure prone part.

I drove a 158k miles, 15 year old factory EFI car from the 80s all over the place and never had to work on it at all. Many of the sensors I'm using on the Duster are the same design sensors that were on that car also. Even stuff like Holley usually has GM sensors.

A fuel injector is basically a solenoid to begin with, usually they don't just up and die. It has the ability to compensate for underperforming parts. Also something like an MPFI system you could literally test each individual part (and the individual coils) on the side of the road and read all the sensors.


j par said:
Let's see for the price of two brand new Street Demon carburetors $600 on sale, the entire fuel side of my nitrous... $100 tank $200 + lines $150 fuel pump $50 pressure gauge $35 filter $35 low pressure switch..
Wouldn't need a window switch $55 timing retard $169 electric fan heat control $45... 2 step launch control can't remember how much...
Wideband O2 sensor $169...
Don't have a control for the AC idle switch and would have that.. certainly can't completely program all this stuff without a lot of hand work.. Jets metering rods springs for the carburetor and changing springs and stops in the distributor..

I'm assuming I can get like a stock Magnum distributor and I'm not sure about the ignition box?
If I could sell all that crap above for half the price I would be 3/4 of the way there...
Click to expand...

The stock magnum distributor is literally a camshaft sensor and only has 1 on/off switch. You would want a Lean-Burn or a TBI distributor (your choice), or you could literally just lock a regular electronic one. The magnum one has to be run with a crank trigger, the trucks have an 8 point (or 6 for the V6) in the flywheel/flexplate and in my case I have a 36-1 ford style wheel on the crank pulley. Then the cam sensor (distributor) just tells the engine which phase the engine is in to run in sequential mode.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I bet that was a big load of fun. Yeah I'm all about reliable too. In all the time I've been driving her, Vixen has let us down once. The 3-4 shift rod fell off because some dumbass didn't bend the cotter pin enough. I wonder who that was? We were in Gray when it happened and I only had 1st and reverse. So I stopped in a parking lot and crawled under and put her in second and drove home in second gear. ....but it really wasn't her fault, was it? lol
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It's a blast! We love to travel in classics. I personally think carbs are part of the classic experience... Don't hold your breath for me to install EFI on my classics. LOL.
  • And to the rest, I've driven all over in FI cars dating back to the old K cars. I know all about the throttle position sensor, crank sensor, cam sensor, MAP sensor, etc etc etc. I was Hot Rodding Turbo Chrysler cars with FI long before Sniper was heard of... That's back when you wired in a 5th injector and ran it with a switch inside.. LOL We didn't have to because we only ran 15 psi - we fattened it up with the MP ECM behind the kick panel...
 
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Dual quads can be a problem, not sure I'd recommend a dual quad Sniper setup at the moment. I've had bad luck with that particular animal. The single Sniper is a good value and it has a very long list of built in features including dry and wet nitrous support, boost control, complete timing control, data logging, etc. A Sniper is one of the best values going in hot rod land, especially if you are starting from scratch.
 
I got an order the other day for a $10,000 EFI conversion. Guy has a big drag race Chevy engine and he wants to switch the car over to EFI. The car has never run right with the current setup and he is tired of messing with it so out with the old and in the new. I'll post some pictures once we get the system built but here is a link to the basic setup: Hilborn 300-801 Hilborn Big Block Chevy Intake Manifold Kit
 
AndyF said:
I got an order the other day for a $10,000 EFI conversion. Guy has a big drag race Chevy engine and he wants to switch the car over to EFI. The car has never run right with the current setup and he is tired of messing with it so out with the old and in the new. I'll post some pictures once we get the system built but here is a link to the basic setup: Hilborn 300-801 Hilborn Big Block Chevy Intake Manifold Kit
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10k for EFI ???? Count this poor boy out... LOL
 
I just spent 2K on a 15 horsepower lawn mower engine for my go-kart...
It's all irrelevant...
 
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