Completely understand man.... and 11s are fast for a street car... I just like the whole.... holy crap that car is a LOT faster than it looks sorta thing, haha.
Anyways, to go back on topic. How fast do you want to go exactly
Backhalving?
- Thread starter 440valiant
- Start date
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Completely understand man.... and 11s are fast for a street car... I just like the whole.... holy crap that car is a LOT faster than it looks sorta thing, haha.
Anyways, to go back on topic. How fast do you want to go exactly
mshred
The Green Manalishi
- Joined
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yes you are definatly going to need more gear for bigger tires, or use up more power...i realize that
I can understand where you are coming from...I guess i just have a fascination for tubbed cars, especially mopars...but yea, didnt even realize, i dont think any of us know what you plan on running...maybe that would be able to give us a better chance of a good suggestion for ya:thumblef:
440valiant
cuda
My goal is to have a streetable low 10 second car.
HOTMOPR
Mr Horsepower
I wish I wouldnt have back halved my car. They didnt have the fancy mono leafs and caltracs when I built it.
Guitar Jones
aka Angry Johnny
Having run a CalTrac set up on my Duster w/minitubs I am very familiar with what they will do and won't do. It all depends on the track. At a good track 9's are reasonable. At a marginal track, 10's are borderline. With a 15/33 tire and a fourlink I can hook in the dirt.
My buddy went from CalTracs to a ladder bar and picked up 7 tenths, and the car ended being heavier after the ladder bar/backhalf installation. There's way more suspension movement before the car moves with leafsprings, regardless of the type of traction system used.
My buddy went from CalTracs to a ladder bar and picked up 7 tenths, and the car ended being heavier after the ladder bar/backhalf installation. There's way more suspension movement before the car moves with leafsprings, regardless of the type of traction system used.
mshred
The Green Manalishi
- Joined
- May 2, 2008
- Messages
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well then you know my vote...backhalf it baby!:-D
I think a lot of it is depends on whether you plan to do it yourself or pay someone else to do the work for you.
I plan to backhalf my car just because I've never done one before and I like the idea of saying that I did it myself or with some help from a friend. I like trying new things that I've never done before, especially if it can be a learning experience. It sometimes costs me a little more from mistakes made, but I figure if I make a mistake once that costs me enough money I'll be sure not to make that mistake the next time. Do I need to backhalf; probably not? However, I will get the look I want and I figure a car running in the mid 6's in the 8th won't look too ridiculous backhalved and tubbed.
I plan to backhalf my car just because I've never done one before and I like the idea of saying that I did it myself or with some help from a friend. I like trying new things that I've never done before, especially if it can be a learning experience. It sometimes costs me a little more from mistakes made, but I figure if I make a mistake once that costs me enough money I'll be sure not to make that mistake the next time. Do I need to backhalf; probably not? However, I will get the look I want and I figure a car running in the mid 6's in the 8th won't look too ridiculous backhalved and tubbed.
I agree 100%. Raced a late 80's Camaro a few years back that looked FAST...nice paint, full tub, 6 inch cowl scoop...very well done car on the outside. We lined up at a test & tune at the track in Denver (altitude 5900 feet, density altitude over 9000 feet), he ran a high 12 and my mini tubbed Cuda went 11.1...My vote is for mini tubbing the car.
Guitar Jones
aka Angry Johnny
Look, it doesn't matter what the car runs. Are you building a foundation for future power? Than that is what is important. Why spend the money for Cal Tracs and mini tubs when you are only going to back half it any way later on? Spend your money once on the chassis and then you'll be a happy camper. Despite what some of these guys may say ET is in the chassis, not the engine.
Burntorange70
Well-Known Member
You should never run more tire than you need. It will only slow you down and cost you money you did not need to spend. Look at what HP you have and what time you want to run then put on the smallest tire you can get away with. Any thing bigger will only slow you down.
Guitar Jones
aka Angry Johnny
It doesn't slow your car down appreciably to run a bigger tire, what you do get though is the ability to hook your car when the track starts going away and that will make you faster than spinning your small tires, and loads more consistent.
You should run the biggest tire you are allowed or can physically fit. It's like having insurance that you won't lose the race because you spun your tires.
Even though those 11.5 tires and CalTracs did the job on my Duster 90% of the time, there was always that 10% waiting to bite you in the ***.
Oh and all those really quick 10.5 tire cars run 4 links and 33 inch tall tires.
You should run the biggest tire you are allowed or can physically fit. It's like having insurance that you won't lose the race because you spun your tires.
Even though those 11.5 tires and CalTracs did the job on my Duster 90% of the time, there was always that 10% waiting to bite you in the ***.
Oh and all those really quick 10.5 tire cars run 4 links and 33 inch tall tires.
451Cuda
Well-Known Member
He wants a low 10 second car. He could cheaply and easily set up an A-body to do that with 10 inch tires. What if his first engine combo runs 12s? I've seen it happen many times..."oh it's got this and this and this, will run easy 10s" and you finally see it run and it's a 12.50 car. It might take a year to sort out his combination so it's even close to running what he wants, power wise. Why spend 5-7 grand tubbing the car before it's even fast?
Cal tracs and 10" slicks can be put on the car in a couple hours, then unbolted and sold for a good amount after you upgrade. To me it's a no brainer. Start simple and upgrade as you need it.
Cal tracs and 10" slicks can be put on the car in a couple hours, then unbolted and sold for a good amount after you upgrade. To me it's a no brainer. Start simple and upgrade as you need it.
Guitar Jones
aka Angry Johnny
Because as any good racer will tell you (and it's also in the original Direct Connection race manuals) that your car, and engine are only as good as the chassis they are put in. The chassis is what takes the power and plants it to the ground. You can take a lower horsepower motor and go faster with a good chassis then you can with a high horsepower motor and poor or marginal chassis.
Even the Pro Stock guys will tell you, you can buy the high horsepower motors but without the chassis and the proper set up you aren't going to be competitive.
So why not build it once, then you won't have to redo the interior, paint the quarter panels again because you had to stretch the wheel wells, redo the roll cage, change your fuel and electrical systems around, etc., etc. It's not just as simple as removing those parts and then back halfing the car. You will spend way more than just the cost of those CalTracs.
Even the Pro Stock guys will tell you, you can buy the high horsepower motors but without the chassis and the proper set up you aren't going to be competitive.
So why not build it once, then you won't have to redo the interior, paint the quarter panels again because you had to stretch the wheel wells, redo the roll cage, change your fuel and electrical systems around, etc., etc. It's not just as simple as removing those parts and then back halfing the car. You will spend way more than just the cost of those CalTracs.
Dartnut
Don't hate me because i'm beautiful
Yeah, but anyone would agree that nothing LOOKS better than some steamrollers and a narrowed dana under an a body......
If it's looks that you are after, back half it and enjoy or......
as 451 Cuda says, do it his way and go for et's that give you the most bang for the buck.
Personally, i would back half it! You know you wannna!:-D
That's one nice Dakota BTW
Tom.
green1
Well-Known Member
It's your car, do what you want. Ridiculed for not running 10's; I'll show you ridicule. Do it, when you chase them, you can out-corner them, as you have no rub issues. lol. Peer pressure is so high school.
Guitar Jones
aka Angry Johnny
I didn't back half my Duster because I didn't want to cut up an original 340 4 speed car. So I took the engine, trans and third member and traded it to my son for his Scamp. I never would have done this to the Duster, but the Scamp isn't worth what the Duster is.
There is a thread in the members restoration area (I know, it's not a restoration) with practically the entire build of this car.
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=16657
There is a thread in the members restoration area (I know, it's not a restoration) with practically the entire build of this car.
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=16657
451Cuda
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't call cal tracs and split mono leafs a "poor or marginal chassis". Look under any stock eliminator car, 9 times out of 10 you will find cal tracs.
Is he building a Pro Stock car?
That's why you don't do body/paint till you get the thing sorted out. Has he even priced what it takes to do a decent back half for a car? I'm trying to preach common sense and you're wanting him to spend several thousand for something that in all reality is probably not even needed for quite awhile. If he wants the look then it's already decided, but if he just wants the car to hook there are much cheaper and easier ways to try first.
The car in my avatar beat plenty of tubbed cars off the line ON THE STREET with 9x28 MT's, 340 Duster leaf springs, pinion snubber, and long shocks. How? by adjusting my snubber, clamping front spring sections, unclamping rear sections, trying different shocks, playing with tire pressures. You know, stuff the DC chassis book recommended. If only cal tracs existed then...
Anyone know of a good DVD or manual that details back halving a car?
451Cuda
Well-Known Member
Alston and Chassis Engineering both have nice videos and manuals for it. Others probably too, but i've only dealt with those 2 companies for back half parts.
Guitar Jones
aka Angry Johnny
You can go to S&W Race Cars web site and they have some instructions. Not real detailed but it will get you there.
451, I'm sorry you just don't get what I'm trying to say. It doesn't matter how many tubbed cars you beat. The essence of any fast car is the chassis. Period, plain and simple and a low 10 second car is fast. The Stockers are all limited to running a stock type suspension which means if your car came with leaf springs than you have to keep leaf springs. That's what John Calvert made the Cal Tracs for, plain and simple. There are better suspensions out there that enable you to use a larger tire than the leaf springs. A larger tire is better for traction. You can't even argue that point, so what if you don't need it now, you'll have it when you do need it.
Besides, what have got against big tires? Have you ever driven a 4 link car? The difference is huge. Leaf spring cars jump and raise, twist and do all that funky stuff before they move. 4 link cars just hit you in the *** and they are gone.
440valiant, I'd be willing to bet that most of the guys here that are so dead set against you back halfing your car are guys that either can't afford to do it themselves (but they want to) or they've never driven a back halfed car and just don't understand the difference. I say go ahead and back half it, do a 4 link though as they are infinitely adjustable. You won't be sorry.
451Cuda
Well-Known Member
I don't have anything against tubbed cars. I've built and raced two myself.
I do have something against recommending very expensive mods when they may or may not be needed.
Is he planning to do fast brackets, or just have a cool street car? Will it be a trans brake? (probably not)
Does he even have a built motor in his car yet? Is there even a 440 in the car right now? I guess we need more info from 440valiant.
Is he limited in funds? Maybe he works part time and is in school? I don't know.
Is he ready to have his car be completely down and disassembled for months and years (I see your thread started 1/07) before it's driveable again? If you don't have at least 5 grand sitting in the bank right now to buy all your parts, it will be. For a LONG time. Thats all I want to get across, is that you can run low 10s EASILY without back half. Is that so hard to understand?
I'm done here. If he wants it, he should go for it but i've made my case in spades.
I do have something against recommending very expensive mods when they may or may not be needed.
Is he planning to do fast brackets, or just have a cool street car? Will it be a trans brake? (probably not)
Does he even have a built motor in his car yet? Is there even a 440 in the car right now? I guess we need more info from 440valiant.
Is he limited in funds? Maybe he works part time and is in school? I don't know.
Is he ready to have his car be completely down and disassembled for months and years (I see your thread started 1/07) before it's driveable again? If you don't have at least 5 grand sitting in the bank right now to buy all your parts, it will be. For a LONG time. Thats all I want to get across, is that you can run low 10s EASILY without back half. Is that so hard to understand?
I'm done here. If he wants it, he should go for it but i've made my case in spades.
I'll throw my 2 cents in here. I have had a few race cars A 440 scamp that did 6.30 1/8 and Sg 67 Cuda 5.80-5.90 1/8 that was a full frame car with a Ladder bar rear set up. I can say that the ladder bar set up left hard and straight every time. I would 1.24 60 ft. The Scamp was a bit more to drive and not as forgiving on fair to poor tracks. It would 60 ft 1.40 range. I have learned though trail and error that you can never have to much chassis. I'm building a 68 NSS car and am only allowed to back half or I would full frame it. Yes I agree a back half will cost more up front money, but if your heading toward going faster, (and who wants to go slower) in the future, Do it right the first time. It really depends on what your plans are now and down the road. Only you can answer this question.
Guitar Jones
aka Angry Johnny
I actually started on my car 09/06, but since I work 6 days a week there is only one day a week to work on it. Then my wife decided I'd be happier without her and that set me back more than nine months, finding a new house and all. Plus now I have even more to do because there is no one else here to help me so I have precious little time to work on my car.
What he has now isn't important, it's what he will have and if he hasn't looked into the cost yet he certainly will, and that may be a determing factor. I still feel however if you are going to build a car it's far cheaper in the long run to just do it right the first time instead of buying stuff than buying more and better stuff later.
The whole Cal Trac setup with their springs and shocks and bushings and whatnot will still cost $1K. You can buy the rear clip with shocks, springs, brackets and rod ends for around $1500. You still have to narrow the rear and if you have good axles now you can just have them shortened. You still have to buy tires and wheels so why buy them twice? Need a cage, it will be different after it's backhalfed so why do that twice?
After having built cars in stages before I won't do that again. I've spent more time and money redoing something I should have just done the first time.
What he has now isn't important, it's what he will have and if he hasn't looked into the cost yet he certainly will, and that may be a determing factor. I still feel however if you are going to build a car it's far cheaper in the long run to just do it right the first time instead of buying stuff than buying more and better stuff later.
The whole Cal Trac setup with their springs and shocks and bushings and whatnot will still cost $1K. You can buy the rear clip with shocks, springs, brackets and rod ends for around $1500. You still have to narrow the rear and if you have good axles now you can just have them shortened. You still have to buy tires and wheels so why buy them twice? Need a cage, it will be different after it's backhalfed so why do that twice?
After having built cars in stages before I won't do that again. I've spent more time and money redoing something I should have just done the first time.
Burntorange70
Well-Known Member
Guitar Jones
aka Angry Johnny
Lack of traction will slow you down more my friend.
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