Breathing new life into the 318 in the Scamp!

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Here is a shot of an old daily driver I had, shot it in October so temps were around 50 degrees.
Oil base Ace hardware paint and mineral spirits.
Paint still looked good years later when I sold the truck after it got wrecked one winter.

truck52006.jpg
 
Looks like John Deere promo! Nice look, all together. Heard about it getting smushed. Sorry to hear. Nice to know, about the mineral spirits. I'll check the temp when I paint, supposedly, it's going to be in the mid to upper fifties this weekend. I'll be glad if it is.

I think, before I do put this thing back together, I'm going to give the one journal another look and check it at one more angle with the gauge on the rod side, just to be safe.

This looked like it came loose about 2 threads and it didn't get driven on it, shut of right away, so far it looks ok, but I suppose double checking wouldn't hurt anything.
 
Dave,
Any updates?
It has been a month, did you hibernate for the winter?
 
sireland67 said:
Here is a shot of an old daily driver I had, shot it in October so temps were around 50 degrees.
Oil base Ace hardware paint and mineral spirits.
Paint still looked good years later when I sold the truck after it got wrecked one winter.

truck52006.jpg
Click to expand...

Good looking rig! In California,(where else?), that wonderful Ace hardware paint(an older polyurethane, no less!),disappeared about 2011... Nice paint.
 
Abodybomber said:
Good looking rig! In California,(where else?), that wonderful Ace hardware paint(an older polyurethane, no less!),disappeared about 2011... Nice paint.
Click to expand...

Thanks, paint actually held up good, the inside of the bed was just as shiny, with stained boards in the bed.

Hi-jack off, now where is Dave?
 
Hi-jack off, now where is Dave?
Gee ,Thanks! As for Dave,I dunno....
 
What would you do? ...

As I am getting ready to put the top end back together, I'm putting lifters back in, on the 8th lifter back on the cam, I noticed that the lifter itself has the beginning of a linear pattern worn into it.

Lifterface_zps4e855855.jpeg


That would be Cyl #4, exhaust... Yeah, this engine f-ckin' loves being worked on and I'm really glad that I went back through everything.

I checked the old cam that came out, before the entire block was tanked and machined, and it's not on one of the lifter bores that had a flattened lobe, on the original cam. In fact, this is the only lifter that has any strange pattern in it, at all. The other lifters, including the ones that went back into the bores that had completely obliterated lifters and lobes, according to the old cam, look awesome.

The surface looks like the coating took to the lifter surface linearly with some pressure stretching in the center and a linear groove going horizontally that matches the peak of the cam lobe that is brighter than the coating, slightly deeper than the rest. No scratching, it's pretty smooth, but without measuring, I'd say the horizontal burnished wear mark is about .005-.007" deep.

I don't know how the cam lobe looks yet, but I'm going to have to mic it and remove the cam, to get a good idea.

As I inspect this lifter, there appears to be a poor material manufacturing issue. It looks like the material that the lifter was machined from, had a deposit or contaminant in the casting that ended up making two small craters that have a little connection between them, in it, that happened to be caught right in the machine surface.

It's sort of blurry, but you can see it in the reflection-

Lifterflaw_zpsb3bd134a.jpeg


So, I'm going to call Hughes and see what I can get from them. Now, if the lobe looks or measures up total ****, I've clearly got no choice, but if the cam lobe still has enough coating and doesn't mic out stupid, for all intensive purposes, looks good enough, do you think a new lifter will survive with some high metal cam lube on the entire lobe and lifter face?

If I've got no choice and the cam has to come out, regardless of what Hughes says, whether or not it's on them that I've got a replacement cam issue on my hands, what would you do-

1- Get another 1019AL from Hughes and scope the daylights out of the new lifter set, break it in and call it a day.

2- Get an equivalent Howards set and ask for a refund from Hughes.

3- To hell with all of this, I'm going hydraulic roller.
 
Abodybomber said:
Hi-jack off, now where is Dave?
Gee ,Thanks! As for Dave,I dunno....
Click to expand...

Mr. Ireland is one of the true gentlemen of this forum, like you, Tim. Both of you guys are held in high regards, in my book.

Just to clear this up, I read it about six times and I think this is lost in translation/ text format.

Rude: Hi, jackoff, now where's Dave?

What was meant, (figured by the hyphen "-"): Hijack off, now where is Dave? (as in, his truck paint talk/ pics were hijacking the thread).

Don't you just love text?
 
And you are correct ,D.B,something was lost in textual context. No harm,no foul. The foul ,is that lifter....
 
Yes. They are Hughes lifters. I bought them with the cam, many moons ago and only recently popped the tape on the box, when I put it all together the first time, a few months ago.

I was super careful, put the red cam break-in lube on the faces and green oil on the sides, made sure none of the heavy pressure lube went up the sides. OCD.

The rest of the lifters are free of any kind of flaws. I know when craters happen in metal, from a volcano situation, that spot is far more susceptible to heat failure.

Hughes tells you to check the cam and lifters dry with caster oil on the sides and nothing on the tappets. I did and they all spun according to their test chart with sharpie marks on the tops to check rotation.

My guess, and looking at the side of this lifter, seeing more linear wear in color, trailing the spot above the craters, is that it got comfy once it warmed up from that crater creating a riser spot and didn't want to spin.

I'd believe it was the block if it happened in the same place, twice over, from the old cam eating it, but the lifters that live in those bores now, look fantastic and the other cam's #4 exhaust lobe looks fine, where this one came out of.

I'm wondering if Hughes is going to cover this. I know that flattened cams are usually operator error, but I didn't put the craters in the side. They aren't dings or scratches. They are clearly dark colored reliefs that didn't get machined or contacted with anything, because they would be bright if they were, and is the only explanation that I can figure, as to why this lifter didn't do what the others did.

I wouldn't think something that small could do it, but the bright trail following the spot leads me to believe it got hot.

TheMoreYouKnow.gif
 
This post ,is why asked about the lifter purchase.^^^^ I agree with the lifter failure,at this point. If I know Hughes,they are going to ask,if you used their "lifter broaching"tool.
 
No lifter bore broaching was done, even though I thought about it. I elected not to do it because I checked the cam and lifter set, dry, as per their suggestion and didn't see any problems. Everything was moving, cold, so I didn't think it needed it.

The thing is, with a crater like this, if it was going to cause a problem cold, it would have shown right away when I checked the lifters and cam, cold. It would make more sense, understanding metalurgy, that it would show up when it was hot, from a riser peaking, as a place for heat to focus, closer to oxygen. Same reason why I elected to smooth the edge off a bit of the heart combustion chambers. Turns into a glow plug.

I'm doubtful that they will do anything, but I think it's worth calling them.

I'd even send them the old cam, just to show them what the hell came out of it and how nice the new lifters and lobes look that matched the lifter bores on the block, on the flattened lobes of the old cam. They are perfect. If broaching was needed, it would have shown here, too.

There are just too many arrows pointing to the lifter failing. Another thing that occurred to me, is that if this lifter metal was contaminated enough to have a crater showing, what's inside of it that isn't showing? If it went through the gas chamber and didn't cool like the rest, from the pockets inside it, that could have potentially created another strength issue overall, on this one.
 
I can more than agree... FWIW, Howard"s picked up Harold Brookshire's CNC cam grinder.2-3 years ago. I went the aggressive 229/233@ .050. grind. The machine work was exceptional,.. Damn expensive,and it's done...
Grind 2.....Kepp the lifts low here, hopefully Amy"s not drag racing...
 
Damn, it were not for bad luck, you would not have any.

FYI the demon carb you recommend will start and idle nice at -10 degrees.
Thank you
 
I know nothing about the Comp line cut quality, I wish Howards had a hydraulic with lower duration, but these numbers look good to me, coming from comp, about the same price.-

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-20-612-9/overview/make/dodge

Cheaper, here-

http://autoplicity.com/products/335325-comp_cams_20_612_9_computer_controlled.aspx

Looks like it's a little softer than the hughes 1019AL, but I think it would do the same thing, without the headache.

I'd like to know the contact pattern width, I'd rather use the Howard's. They have Magnum roller lifters for cheaper than LA, but if I'm not mistaken, they are different.

Good to know on the carb. I'd love to try mine! lol...

When I saw the idle mixture idea and atomization, I figured that it would be a great runner for cold weather.
 
A couple more options, tossed in my direction;

I was told by a friend that I bumped into yesterday, at an art show opening, that Howards does offer custom grinding. Something I'm not really in need of, but would certainly open up roller options, if I decide to throw down.

Another option that I have, is to bug Scott down at Cam Research and see what he thinks, with the stick and the lifter. He may not be able to do anything, but if the cam could be repaired or treated for a new lifter, he would know.
 
I would let your buddy Scott,check it out first. That way,you get a known trustworthy answer. With a Comp roller stick,make sure it has a cast iron distributor gear. I have seen some customers not ask,end up needing a bronze gear. Howards comes with it,on the "retrofit LA"grinds.
 
Good to know about the dist. gear. I knew about the Howard's. Didn't know about the Comp standard equip. Are the Comp grinds on a .904"? I don't know that it makes much of a difference on a low spring pressure roller, but any load bearing surface added helps some. I know the Howard's is cut to fit 904 tappet.

Scott has that break in machine, too. I suppose, worse case scenario, I have him throw some compound on the lobe and chuck a replacement Hughes lifter in it and see what it does, depending on the cost.

Amy's cousin works for him, now. He used to work with me, got in the door there, we were slow, so I told him to get in at his machine shop. I may get a friendly discount for some trial and error.

The first thing I need to do is pull it and mic it. If the lobe peak took a hit compared to the rest and needs baseline ground, I know it's hydraulic, but that won't make me happy and I'll likely have more cash in it than another Howard's flat tappet hydro.

If I can get it fixed/ remedied for a couple of bucks, I may try. I got lucky on the crank journal bearings. Maybe the engine just likes me and won't cost me another first born.

At this juncture, because of the added range of power coming from valve lift on a roller, sounds appealing down at idle for my combo, I think if I have to replace the cam and lifters, I'm going to skin the cat with a chainsaw for the roller. I'm sick of this. I got the bellhousing indexed and I want to throw the cash and clock at the gearbox to get the stick put in. I want this thing running, so I can dial AFR on the o2 and call it done!
 
DaveBonds said:
Good to know about the dist. gear. I knew about the Howard's. Didn't know about the Comp standard equip. Are the Comp grinds on a .904"? I don't know that it makes much of a difference on a low spring pressure roller, but any load bearing surface added helps some. I know the Howard's is cut to fit 904 tappet.

Scott has that break in machine, too. I suppose, worse case scenario, I have him throw some compound on the lobe and chuck a replacement Hughes lifter in it and see what it does, depending on the cost.

Amy's cousin works for him, now. He used to work with me, got in the door there, we were slow, so I told him to get in at his machine shop. I may get a friendly discount for some trial and error.

The first thing I need to do is pull it and mic it. If the lobe peak took a hit compared to the rest and needs baseline ground, I know it's hydraulic, but that won't make me happy and I'll likely have more cash in it than another Howard's flat tappet hydro.

If I can get it fixed/ remedied for a couple of bucks, I may try. I got lucky on the crank journal bearings. Maybe the engine just likes me and won't cost me another first born.

At this juncture, because of the added range of power coming from valve lift on a roller, sounds appealing down at idle for my combo, I think if I have to replace the cam and lifters, I'm going to skin the cat with a chainsaw for the roller. I'm sick of this. I got the bellhousing indexed and I want to throw the cash and clock at the gearbox to get the stick put in. I want this thing running, so I can dial AFR on the o2 and call it done!
Click to expand...
Understand the frustrations,Dave. PM sent...
 
I think if you go with any flat tappet cam besides a hughes it will last just fine, the lunati cam and lifters in my 360 have probably 20 thousand miles by now and I'm running hughes 1110 Springs and 1.6 rockers... hughes have the fastest ramps of any ots grind out there
 
Thanks for the PM, Tim.

I think a flat tappet will be ok, too, I'm just tired of messing with it and I know that the range of power gains are nice on a roller, not to mention oil changes, timing chain lifespan/ holding advance degree and less hp/tq used to run the valvetrain.

Whatever I'm getting will end up running on the same springs you've got that are currently installed.
 
Alright, so here's what's happening;

I called Hughes and Tim is sending me a replacement lifter.

He thinks that if the cam lobe looks the same as the others, after mic and inspection, that there is so little time on it and wear on the lifter, that it should be ok, considering it's hydraulic and it doesn't have more than a few minutes on it.

I didn't see any bent pushrods coming out, so I really don't think I did anything, but begin to misshape the lifter. True enough, if this lifter gave, the cam likely didn't.

So, crossed fingers, I'm going to get a really close look at the lobe, 360° around and if it specs, get it in break in compound again and give it another break in rev cycle.

I think I may try and fish this lifter back into it's bore through the head without a valve cover, to see how viable it is to remove and check, later on, with a simple valve cover pop and telescopic earth magnet and pushrod to release the magnet. My OCD won't let me leave it alone after I break the new one in again.

If I can actually operate a strong magnet and get it set in nicely without damaging it, I may try. I've got this screwed up lifter to practice. If nothing else and I can't, I can always check it with cyl. psi. on all 8 and if #4 is not happy, pull the intake at that point to check.

Another thing that occurred to me is that even though the old cam looked good, the old lifter may have been a different size. Unfortunately, I don't have the old lifters cataloged, so I can't mic it, but I may see if this one is slightly bigger than the other new ones I have. I may broach this bore, because I'm a little on edge with this idea.

Time to jump in, goggles on and see if it flies!
 
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