Butters "Winter Upgrades". . Starting a Little Early
- Thread starter Dantra
- Start date
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She pops in to make sure I'm doing it right and then back out to play and explore with her buddy.. We took in a golden retriever a few months ago. They're quite a pair
Here ya go, 2 helpers...well briefly. The big boy (Leo) isn't crazy about anything that makes noise, so he was in and out. Dottie on the other hand, will stand right in front of the leaf blower with her lips flapping and not care. She came in shortly after the first Pic, with a toy, insisting that it was play time. I always say yes!
Finished getting things clean and painted today. Put all if the oil pass plugs in, including mds and squirter plugs. And then it was play time.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Why delete the squirted?
Long stroke and squirters don't get along
That’s awesome!
She was “yelling” at you…
I know they are in and done with but my friend put one (stroker) together and he just “adjusted” them (squirters) so they would clear…. It was tedious and a PITA but it is possible to keep them… just an FYI
She's a talker for sure
I've seen strokers that were slightly less than 4.050 where they "made" them work.. Have also seen some horror stories where it didn't work out too.. Which was really bad. Not chancing it lol
Bored. 010 just to true things up.. 4.100 bore. I believe it's actually 427 but everyone calls it 426
Forgot to update this page after this past Sunday... Be prepared for an education in bearings.
I finally got some bearings and main caps installed, so I could begin the process of checking bearing clearances. I also wanted to assemble 1 rod and piston, so I could recheck rod to block clearance.
Before sending in for machine work, I sat the Manley crank down into the block, using the old main bearings. Then I stuck a new set in one of the new rods and attached it to the crank, so I could rotate it and find interference spots. Could't put on a piston because it was still a stock bore and the pitons are .010 over.. So I just kinda held the rod end in the center of the bore for a close enough guess. cyls 5 & 7 were the hard hits and then a few areas needed some lighter clearancing. Since I was having it bored and then cleaned, I didn't want to sweat getting chips all in everything.. In hindsight, it doesn't really matter. I still ended up cleaning the snot out of it after coming back from the machine shop. They didn't pull any of the oil galley plugs, so it still needed a deep clean. Big thanks to Tim (RacerJoe) for the cleaning tip to use mineral spirits and a wash down gun. I would normally just use hot soapy water and a pressure washer, but I don't have easy access to hot water at my shop building and I'd have to run about 100' garden hose.
Bearings, bearings, bearings! I really ended up in a rabbit hole on this one. I guess if you know, that's great.. but it was new to me. These are all Clevite #s btw. With a new stroker kit from Manley, you a set of MS2220P main bearings. Once I had them in, I torqued some caps, Mic'd my crank, set the dial bore gauge and had a look to see where things were at. My db gauge was being real finicky .. reading right around .0015 and sometimes a little lower, higher or dead on .0015 again. I'd reset my mic and go through it all again. I just couldn't get it to read consistent and pretty much lost my **** at that point. I then checked with plastigage.. coming in around .0015. At this point, I just ordered a new db gauge and a set of + .001 bearings. The rule of thumb (for race motor) is .001 clearance for every 1" of diameter of shaft. Ideally, I'd like to be just a fuzz under that since trhe car sees way more street time. All of this is so debatable.. some deep conversations have come from this topic.
The rabbit hole was which bearing.. The bearings I are MS2220P that Manley sent with the kit. I initially thought "I'll just HX in place of the P" H meaning narrowed and X is an additional .001 clearance. So a MS2220HX. They're also a little better bearing. They're tri metal, Nasacar design yada yada. Ordered a set through Amazon , along with a fine reading DB gauge. Later in the evening, I began to question what bearings I had ordered, even tho it only made sense to just change to HX. Afterall, the MS2220 is what Manly supplies with all their Gen 3 strokers and they only have one other option and that's for the H bearing (narrowed). It just seemed to easy, so I started asking some questions. One builder told me that the correct bearing for a 6.4 was a MS2296 in either a H or HX for narrowed or .001 over. I found it confusing because nobody could tell me the difference and they all literally spec out the same.. I even called Manley and they said they only stock what was sent for all Hemis. I finally figured out that the 2296 has 2 holes in the top bearing and the 2220 only has 1 hole. The 6.2/6.4 blocks have a groove under the bearing that supplies oil to that secondary hole. I just couldn't figure why Manley only does the one bearing.. was is due to something different with the crank or what. Turns out either will work but the correct 2 hole is better. Whew! SO I have a different set coming now and returned the others to Amazon. Just hoping the new db gauge doesn't show that they're .001 too big now!
I finally got some bearings and main caps installed, so I could begin the process of checking bearing clearances. I also wanted to assemble 1 rod and piston, so I could recheck rod to block clearance.
Before sending in for machine work, I sat the Manley crank down into the block, using the old main bearings. Then I stuck a new set in one of the new rods and attached it to the crank, so I could rotate it and find interference spots. Could't put on a piston because it was still a stock bore and the pitons are .010 over.. So I just kinda held the rod end in the center of the bore for a close enough guess. cyls 5 & 7 were the hard hits and then a few areas needed some lighter clearancing. Since I was having it bored and then cleaned, I didn't want to sweat getting chips all in everything.. In hindsight, it doesn't really matter. I still ended up cleaning the snot out of it after coming back from the machine shop. They didn't pull any of the oil galley plugs, so it still needed a deep clean. Big thanks to Tim (RacerJoe) for the cleaning tip to use mineral spirits and a wash down gun. I would normally just use hot soapy water and a pressure washer, but I don't have easy access to hot water at my shop building and I'd have to run about 100' garden hose.
Bearings, bearings, bearings! I really ended up in a rabbit hole on this one. I guess if you know, that's great.. but it was new to me. These are all Clevite #s btw. With a new stroker kit from Manley, you a set of MS2220P main bearings. Once I had them in, I torqued some caps, Mic'd my crank, set the dial bore gauge and had a look to see where things were at. My db gauge was being real finicky .. reading right around .0015 and sometimes a little lower, higher or dead on .0015 again. I'd reset my mic and go through it all again. I just couldn't get it to read consistent and pretty much lost my **** at that point. I then checked with plastigage.. coming in around .0015. At this point, I just ordered a new db gauge and a set of + .001 bearings. The rule of thumb (for race motor) is .001 clearance for every 1" of diameter of shaft. Ideally, I'd like to be just a fuzz under that since trhe car sees way more street time. All of this is so debatable.. some deep conversations have come from this topic.
The rabbit hole was which bearing.. The bearings I are MS2220P that Manley sent with the kit. I initially thought "I'll just HX in place of the P" H meaning narrowed and X is an additional .001 clearance. So a MS2220HX. They're also a little better bearing. They're tri metal, Nasacar design yada yada. Ordered a set through Amazon , along with a fine reading DB gauge. Later in the evening, I began to question what bearings I had ordered, even tho it only made sense to just change to HX. Afterall, the MS2220 is what Manly supplies with all their Gen 3 strokers and they only have one other option and that's for the H bearing (narrowed). It just seemed to easy, so I started asking some questions. One builder told me that the correct bearing for a 6.4 was a MS2296 in either a H or HX for narrowed or .001 over. I found it confusing because nobody could tell me the difference and they all literally spec out the same.. I even called Manley and they said they only stock what was sent for all Hemis. I finally figured out that the 2296 has 2 holes in the top bearing and the 2220 only has 1 hole. The 6.2/6.4 blocks have a groove under the bearing that supplies oil to that secondary hole. I just couldn't figure why Manley only does the one bearing.. was is due to something different with the crank or what. Turns out either will work but the correct 2 hole is better. Whew! SO I have a different set coming now and returned the others to Amazon. Just hoping the new db gauge doesn't show that they're .001 too big now!
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racerjoe
Well-Known Member
Interesting. I'll admit, I know nothing about all the varieties of bearings. I did just watch a Steve Morris video where he spoke about bearing clearances. He had one a touch big or small (don't remember) so he was ordering the next size up and only planned to use half of it. This would essentially give him the clearance ne needed. I've never heard of mixing bearing sizes, but if anyone knows, it would be him. But he also builds 4000HP engines that get torn apart very often. Might not be a good idea for a street engine. Do you know what the clearance is on a factory 6.4?
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
I believe that should be in a service manual. I know my Viper has all the factory clearance values in its manual, but the 6.4 came in multiple vehicles, so less sure about it.
Yes, you can use the bottom half of a .001 combined with astd size upper to gain .0005. SO if you were at .0015 and wanted 2, that would be the right move. I'll be happy if I'm somewhere between .002 and .0025. I think the factory spec is less than .001 (.0008 or 9) all the way to .002, calling for the thinner oil. I had to ask what a good weight is with the .0025 clearance.. Oil questions are always horrible to ask. The answers are pretty broad but the general consensus seems to be use 10-30 or 10-40 and work from there.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Here's what I have in one of the service manuals I found online awhile ago.
This is tighter on the mains than the 5.7 which lists 0.0009-0.002 while the the HC is 0.0006-0.002. Didn't compare rod journal clearances.
This is tighter on the mains than the 5.7 which lists 0.0009-0.002 while the the HC is 0.0006-0.002. Didn't compare rod journal clearances.
It's all subject to sources I suppose. I can't imagine running a. 0005 lol.
Here's a different pdf, stating right there with 5.7 specs. They're all the same journals, which is 2.55 something.
Oh.. Something to add about the Manley crank is that it uses 2" rod journals. Chevy bearing, more or less... Narrowed with the H. Gives it better rod to block ckearance
DionR
Well-Known Member
True, source is important. I have a 2011-14 Challenger manual and it lists 0.0009-0.002 main journal clearance for the 6.4 as well. The first image was from a manual that was listed as for a '15-18 Charger.
Sticks in my head that the oil requirements for a 6.4 were different than a 5.7, too. When I had my Challenger, seems like the dealership service writer made an offhand comment that an oil change for a SP was much more expensive than for my R/T. The '15-18 Charger manual lists 5W-20 for the 5.7 and Pennzoil Ultra 0W-40 for the 6.2 and 6.4. So when I saw different clearances for the 5.7 compared to the 6.4 I didn't look further.
The '11-14 manual doesn't even list an oil viscosity for the 6.4, only the 5.7 (5W20) and 6.1 (Pennzoil Platinum European Formula 5W-40) even though the 6.1 wasn't offered in 2011. Note that despite the different oil requirements, the main journal clearances were the same for the 5.7 and 6.1 in the '11-14 manual.
And while the manuals I have say "Factory Service Manual", they feel under developed to be from the factory. So no idea how accurate they are.
DionR
Well-Known Member
I was curious about running a forged 6.4 crank in a 5.7 block and came across several references to using 2.00" rod journals. Seems like it makes the connecting rods much cheaper.
I don't expect I will do anything with my 5.7 beyond the stock crank as I guess they are good for some pretty good HP. But the idea of a forged bottom end makes me curious how to do it so I was looking at ideas. The 6.4 crank adds a little over the stock crank, but pistons are difficult. Probably the easier path is a 6.1 crank and a crank sprocket spacer, assuming the crank tone ring bolting isn't an issue.
T
Tone rings interchange. Depends what you want out of the motor. Forged is nice, but is it worth it for what you wanna do? You don't really hear of alot of 5.7 bottom end failures. I'd probably lean towards a set of drop ins for better ring lands. Who am I to give advice on that **** tho lol. I mean, I'm doing something absolutely ridiculous for the hell of it!
DionR
Well-Known Member
There is some interchange issues as some of the tone rings are 4 bolt and some only 3 bolt. Pretty sure the non-VVT 5.7 is 3 bolt and the 6.1 is 4 bolt, but not sure on the vvt 5.7 or 6.4. I remember looking at something tone ring related awhile ago and not being able to find a tone ring that would potentially fit what I as doing. But it has been long enough I don't know what I was even researching anymore.
I don't think I will ever need a fully forged 5.7. I could see myself spend money on it and then want more displacement and throw it all away, too.
At the same time, I could see building a fully forged 5.7 with a set of Trickflow heads that are dual drilled and a HC FEAD kit. Run it NA for awhile and then swap an HC blower on it later. Probably make 85% the power of an HC, but cost much less.
I currently have 2 vvt 5.7's, so not impossible that I might build one up at a later date. But the first one will be a bottom dollar re-ring unless the cylinder rust doesn't hone out.
Ahh ya know, you're right. They did make 3 & 4 bolt. I think there's a break there and then another break for 32 and 58 tooth.. I could be wrong. Too many rabbit holes haha
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
I think a lot of those oil specs were also because of the MDS, not necessarily clearances. The MDS system was pretty picky on oil weight and would give people issues when they ran thicker stuff at least from what I recall reading. Not that bearing clearances couldn't play into that, but I know a lot of the banter came from MDS. Bearing material might have something to do with the clearances as well, but I'm by no means an expert or even all that well versed in bearings. Modern street cars tend to run aluminum bearings though, which I could see maybe having tighter clearances due to being marginally softer maybe?
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