Car dying when the lights are turned on?

-

JamesRR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
207
Reaction score
18
Location
Nashville, TN
My little brother and I were going through his 74 duster this weekend. We changed the battery, alternator, and voltage regulator out with fresh components. Car runs well although when the car is idling and you turn the lights on(switch all the way out) the car dies. It only does this at idle. When cruising it doesn't. Was gonna take a look at the switch this coming weekend but figure Id ask here and see if anyone else has had a problem like this. Thanks guys.


James :burnout:
 
Sounds like a low voltage or weak coil issue.
Make sure all the grounds are good and find out what the ohm reading on your specific coil is and test it.

Chk your batter voltage while the car is running and while you turn your lights on.
This will give you an indication of whats going on.

Can't stress enough to make SURE the grounds for the ECU as well as the engine to body are in nice clean contact.

Add the alternator ground to that list.
You can test for voltage with a meter between the alt case and the battery negative (should be zero)
 
Sounds like a low voltage or weak coil issue.
Make sure all the grounds are good and find out what the ohm reading on your specific coil is and test it.

Chk your batter voltage while the car is running and while you turn your lights on.
This will give you an indication of whats going on.

Can't stress enough to make SURE the grounds for the ECU as well as the engine to body are in nice clean contact.

Add the alternator ground to that list.
You can test for voltage with a meter between the alt case and the battery negative (should be zero)

Forgot to mention that the car did this before a new battery, alternator, and voltage regulator.
 
if turning on the headlights makes it stall then don't turn them on :D
 
Thats a great and easy fix, if you gotta drive at night follow someone, that cost nothing to fix.
 
Forgot to mention that the car did this before a new battery, alternator, and voltage regulator.

Now that makes me wonder if someone wired the lights and coil positive to the same source.
For whatever reason, the lights are robbing spark/coil power.
Might want to take a look for any obvious added in wires and make sure where they go.
You can verify this by jumping a power wire from the battery pos to the coil pos and then turn the lights on.
Betcha it doesn't die. :)
 
My first thoughts are either someone has mucked up the wiring...............

or more likely.........

you have a loose connection somewhere.

You should get yourself a shop manual. I'm not sure what the differences are between 73 and 74, but you can download a 73 shop manual in this thread:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?p=1970088617

More info from this page:

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

as well as what you might call "simplified" wiring diagrams

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=24

READ this excellent article:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

Even if you don't do this mod, the article explains fully how these old girls work, and the problems that arise in the main primary power system. This diagram from the above page

is a simplified look at how your system works. NOTICE that the main power comes through connections in the BULKEAD CONNECTOR. This thing is a disaster waiting to happen in these old girls. There are several connectors in there, not the least of which is the battery and alternator feeds, which can give trouble.

amp-ga18.jpg
 
Try unplugging the headlights to see if it's a load related issue. If no change, it's not the headlights themsleves, but a wiring issue. If the car runs fine, plug in each headlight alone, and see what happens. It may be in the wiring along the headlight circuit.

Could be a switch grounding out and sucking energy. Be VERY careful. This has the makings of a quickly toasted harness.
 
.............and also determine if it's only low beams, only high beams, etc
 
I'll tell you what it is. I've messed around with enough of these harnesses to know why they do this.

You need to relay the headlights to a direct voltage source from the battery on these cars, because the ammeter in the dash has ALL of the ignition voltage, as well as direct and ignition source accessory voltage running through it.

The ammeter that you have, as well as the red lead that goes up to the flat bulkhead on the steering column need to be checked and either bypassed, or cleaned up.

The ammeter has a peened stud on both ends, that is supposed to be press fit into the piece of metal that crosses over. These studs have the primary wires on an eyelet on the back side, and also hold the gauge into the dash cluster. After the bulkhead at the firewall and the bulkhead at the steering column start to create resistance from old age and corrosion, that red primary wire gets hot, like a toaster oven coil and it starts to fry the insulation board on that ammeter, at the fittings. This makes the ammeter loose and you get a ton of voltage drop across evertything.

The best thing to do is drop the steering column, pull the gauge cluster out of the dash and remove the ammeter, so you can set the studs to the metal with solder. Even if you get a replacement that is tight, it's still 40 years old and still a press/ peened fit.

I would also recommend removing the red primary wire, and maybe the blue and yellow ones from the steering column bulkhead and bypass that bulkhead with some bullet connectors. You may also want to check the large primary wires at the firewall bulkhead to clean those up as well. Start at the ammeter. Nothing at all that car will work with it disconnected, so its critical to have a sound connection, there. It feeds everything and the entire system, including your coil feed, bottleneck into that single junction. An ohmmeter or test light will tell you that its good, until you check voltage across each post, when its been running, then you will see the voltage loss. Just pull it out and bridge it really good with solder and flux.

The idea behind running a new primary lead off of an auxilary battery positive feed, to a relay that will run the headlights and use the existing feed wires to trigger the relay, is to take that voltage draw off of the ammeter. You won't see any more headlight dimming issues or weak ignition problems at night, if you at least take care of the bad ammeter connections and you won't see it flinch at all if you relay the headlights.
 
Do yourself a favor and check the wiring under the hood closely before going inside and behind the dash. If you're lucky you'll find the problem in a place easier to service.
The wires leaving the alternator go to a white engine harness connector. Check it. If no fault found continue on the a round white connector for a fusible link just before the bulk head connections at the firewall.
 
I had this happen on my Barracuda years ago. Under the dash is the main thick red ignition wire that goes to the wiring bulkhead on firewall. It's in the center of all those and got hot and fused wires together. Check their for heated up wires. (Melted harmed tape,exposed wires that got heated and came through harness tape. Also look underhood where wireing bulkhead is and fuseable link is and look for wires showing heat damage. This is where I would look. Mine would die instantly when I would pull head light switch. Good luck and let us know what you find.
 
I'll tell you what it is. I've messed around with enough of these harnesses to know why they do this.

You need to relay the headlights to a direct voltage source from the battery on these cars, because the ammeter in the dash has ALL of the ignition voltage, as well as direct and ignition source accessory voltage running through it.

The ammeter that you have, as well as the red lead that goes up to the flat bulkhead on the steering column need to be checked and either bypassed, or cleaned up.

The ammeter has a peened stud on both ends, that is supposed to be press fit into the piece of metal that crosses over. These studs have the primary wires on an eyelet on the back side, and also hold the gauge into the dash cluster. After the bulkhead at the firewall and the bulkhead at the steering column start to create resistance from old age and corrosion, that red primary wire gets hot, like a toaster oven coil and it starts to fry the insulation board on that ammeter, at the fittings. This makes the ammeter loose and you get a ton of voltage drop across evertything.

The best thing to do is drop the steering column, pull the gauge cluster out of the dash and remove the ammeter, so you can set the studs to the metal with solder. Even if you get a replacement that is tight, it's still 40 years old and still a press/ peened fit.

I would also recommend removing the red primary wire, and maybe the blue and yellow ones from the steering column bulkhead and bypass that bulkhead with some bullet connectors. You may also want to check the large primary wires at the firewall bulkhead to clean those up as well. Start at the ammeter. Nothing at all that car will work with it disconnected, so its critical to have a sound connection, there. It feeds everything and the entire system, including your coil feed, bottleneck into that single junction. An ohmmeter or test light will tell you that its good, until you check voltage across each post, when its been running, then you will see the voltage loss. Just pull it out and bridge it really good with solder and flux.

The idea behind running a new primary lead off of an auxilary battery positive feed, to a relay that will run the headlights and use the existing feed wires to trigger the relay, is to take that voltage draw off of the ammeter. You won't see any more headlight dimming issues or weak ignition problems at night, if you at least take care of the bad ammeter connections and you won't see it flinch at all if you relay the headlights.

Excellent info here. Here is an update. Had to tow my little brother the other day because the car broke down. Absolutely no electronics work on the car. Battery is fully charged but nothing is working. Could the ammeter be fried? Is it worth bypassing the ammeter all together? Dont know where to start really. Dead as a door nail.
 
Sounds like this is what you are asking?
I read the article and plan on doing the mod.

Thanks to 67Dart273 for this.........


READ this excellent article:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

Even if you don't do this mod, the article explains fully how these old girls work, and the problems that arise in the main primary power system. This diagram from the above page

is a simplified look at how your system works. NOTICE that the main power comes through connections in the BULKEAD CONNECTOR. This thing is a disaster waiting to happen in these old girls. There are several connectors in there, not the least of which is the battery and alternator feeds, which can give trouble.

amp-ga18.jpg
 
Excellent info here. Here is an update. Had to tow my little brother the other day because the car broke down. Absolutely no electronics work on the car. Battery is fully charged but nothing is working. Could the ammeter be fried? Is it worth bypassing the ammeter all together? Dont know where to start really. Dead as a door nail.

We've posted the start to your search. READ the MAD article and download a service manual. We can step you through SPECIFIC tests. You MUST find where you are losing power. Don't guess

"Is it the ammeter?"

How would I know? Without making tests? As I said earlier, the trouble is going to be right there in that MAD diagram. It's going to be battery cables / connections, fuse link, bulkhead connector, ammeter, or the welded splice.

Turn on the headlights

Anything? No?

Go around and wiggle the bulkhead connector. Any difference?

Find the RED wire going from the starter relay ...........through the fuse link..........into the bulkhead connector. Stick a meter or test lamp in there. Any voltage? Yes?

Trouble can be in the "other half" (interior side) of the bulkhead. go inside the car. FIND that same connector Any power? No? You have found it

Any power ? yes? Might BE the ammeter. Time to get dirty. Read the service manual. Drop the column. Get the cluster out of the dash.

POST BACK

You cannot just stand there and look at it. You have to get your hands dirty. You have to check stuff.

Either that, or you can pay me thousands of dollars to fly down there, more hundreds for motel rooms, and put up with my abuse. And.........it will be unrelenting. When I was younger, you would have had to buy me beers.
 
We've posted the start to your search. READ the MAD article and download a service manual. We can step you through SPECIFIC tests. You MUST find where you are losing power. Don't guess

"Is it the ammeter?"

How would I know? Without making tests? As I said earlier, the trouble is going to be right there in that MAD diagram. It's going to be battery cables / connections, fuse link, bulkhead connector, ammeter, or the welded splice.

Turn on the headlights

Anything? No?

Go around and wiggle the bulkhead connector. Any difference?

Find the RED wire going from the starter relay ...........through the fuse link..........into the bulkhead connector. Stick a meter or test lamp in there. Any voltage? Yes?

Trouble can be in the "other half" (interior side) of the bulkhead. go inside the car. FIND that same connector Any power? No? You have found it

Any power ? yes? Might BE the ammeter. Time to get dirty. Read the service manual. Drop the column. Get the cluster out of the dash.

POST BACK

You cannot just stand there and look at it. You have to get your hands dirty. You have to check stuff.

Either that, or you can pay me thousands of dollars to fly down there, more hundreds for motel rooms, and put up with my abuse. And.........it will be unrelenting. When I was younger, you would have had to buy me beers.

I'm not afraid of getting my "hands dirty". Nor do I plan to "stare at it". This is my brother's car and I am trying to help point him in the right direction. I'd rather pay you money to stay away. While I know you are joking, you are quite condescending. Unfortunate. Thanks everyone for your advice. It will get figured out.
 
generally, it sounds like your ign/coil is losing power probably under 4v once you get the headlights on.

so, you need to go through all of the connections to the headlights and relays. a bad connection will suck away power. probably not enough to shut you all the way down though.

sounds like a short somewhere, where the + is getting to ground. most likely in the headlight switch itself or a frayed wire or in one of the headlight relays.

best bet is to number one, check all the wires for any places where the insulation is gone
after that get a switch and relays from a salvage yard and swap them in
you will find the culprit
 
Excellent info here. Here is an update. Had to tow my little brother the other day because the car broke down. Absolutely no electronics work on the car. Battery is fully charged but nothing is working. Could the ammeter be fried? Is it worth bypassing the ammeter all together? Dont know where to start really. Dead as a door nail.
If the car is totally dead (headlights will not come on at all), then the problem lies between the batttery and the in-harness splice.
Start by looking at:
1) the battery connections and the connections on the large lug on the starter relay
2) then the fusible link (can blow open and may be a sign that there is a developing short, which may be causing the 'headlights kill ignition' problem)
3) then move on to examine the firewall connector where the fusible link and its wire go through
4) then the ammeter and its connections
5) and then the harness splice in the dash.

BTW, why did you tow your little brother? Wouldn't it make more sense to tow the car? LOL...sorry...could not resist...
 
I'm not afraid of getting my "hands dirty". Nor do I plan to "stare at it". This is my brother's car and I am trying to help point him in the right direction. I'd rather pay you money to stay away. While I know you are joking, you are quite condescending. Unfortunate. Thanks everyone for your advice. It will get figured out.

I haven't "condescended" anybody. You wanted help and you don't seem to know. You seemed to start out throwing parts at it, and didn't detail what you have already checked. This is a two way road, here. The rest of us cannot see what you see, or know what you did.

If you want to pay me to stay away, then get out your checkbook, because it is REALLY gonna cost you.

Otherwise, take a breath and let's get to work.
 
If the car is totally dead (headlights will not come on at all), then the problem lies between the batttery and the in-harness splice.
Start by looking at:
1) the battery connections and the connections on the large lug on the starter relay
2) then the fusible link (can blow open and may be a sign that there is a developing short, which may be causing the 'headlights kill ignition' problem)
3) then move on to examine the firewall connector where the fusible link and its wire go through
4) then the ammeter and its connections
5) and then the harness splice in the dash.

BTW, why did you tow your little brother? Wouldn't it make more sense to tow the car? LOL...sorry...could not resist...

He's a big guy!!
 
-
Back
Top