Carb tuning, larger accelerator pump nozzle?

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dano

Evil Handy Man
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Hello All, so I finally got my GTS on the road and I'm now able to tune it. Been reading and playing with the carb (Quick Fuel 650 SS, Mech Secondary) and had a really bad lean stumble just coming off the clutch. The slower the leaner then it would catch up (I have a wide band o2). Installed 67 IAB from 71's and that didn't help after tuning those in. Installed a larger accelerator pump nozzle on the primary side from a 31 to a 33 and very little change. Installed a white pump cam and adjusted the pump arm, that helped a little, repeated with the blue cam and that put me where it dips 16-18 afr from a stop depend on how fast I come off the clutch and hit the gas and how flat the road is at the time. Blue being the largest cam, do I increase the larger accelerator pump nozzle? 33 now, move to a 35 or 37 or try something else? FYI I have a TKO 600 and 3.91:1 gears
 
Have you thought about a cam change to being the stream of fuel in earlier?
 
You probably have too much emulsion for starters. If you have 4 emulsion blocks, you need to put emulsion in 1 and 3 and block 2 and 4. They don’t need to be any bigger than .029 and .026-.027 would probably be better.

So I’d go back to the 71 IAB, lower the Idle Feed Restricter to the bottom of the well and tune from there.

If it’s like most QF’s I’ve seen, you’ll also need to install T slot restricters.

That should give you a good starting point.
 
Thanks for the help guys.

Have you thought about a cam change to being the stream of fuel in earlier?

If you talking pump cams I did. Started Pink (stock), then white now blue.

You probably have too much emulsion for starters. If you have 4 emulsion blocks, you need to put emulsion in 1 and 3 and block 2 and 4. They don’t need to be any bigger than .029 and .026-.027 would probably be better.

So I’d go back to the 71 IAB, lower the Idle Feed Restricter to the bottom of the well and tune from there.

If it’s like most QF’s I’ve seen, you’ll also need to install T slot restricters.

That should give you a good starting point.

No clue what it has so I'll need to pull it apart, if the body is tapped for the T Slot restrictors. As per blocking, is that per side or total?

This is my first time really getting into a carburetor, coming to understand ho all the different channels function and at what time.
 
Your metering blocks are probably 3 hole .028, plug the bottom hole on each side on both metering blocks. Leave the 67 IAB in and change the MAB to .031. The overdrive is going to need the AFR a little fat on the upper end of the idle circuit and the 67 IAB will do the trick. Put a 35 nozzle up front and make sure the squirt is instant without bootoming out the accellerator pump. The adjustment is very close on a blue cam 30cc pump. You should not need a blue cam on the secondaries for the street. Orange cam for the secondaries should work. If you are going to restrict the T slot only the primary needs to be done. Make sure both T slots are even and not over exposed on both the pri and sec. Don't get concerned with chasing a 14.5 AFR number. You are reading an average of 4 cylinders. Plug reading and performance are more important than the number on the gauge.
 
Your metering blocks are probably 3 hole .028, plug the bottom hole on each side on both metering blocks. Leave the 67 IAB in and change the MAB to .031. The overdrive is going to need the AFR a little fat on the upper end of the idle circuit and the 67 IAB will do the trick. Put a 35 nozzle up front and make sure the squirt is instant without bootoming out the accellerator pump. The adjustment is very close on a blue cam 30cc pump. You should not need a blue cam on the secondaries for the street. Orange cam for the secondaries should work. If you are going to restrict the T slot only the primary needs to be done. Make sure both T slots are even and not over exposed on both the pri and sec. Don't get concerned with chasing a 14.5 AFR number. You are reading an average of 4 cylinders. Plug reading and performance are more important than the number on the gauge.

Thanks, I'm defiantly not chasing hard AFR numbers. The last time i had it off, the T Slot slit was not over exposed. It was somewhere in the .030-.035 range. It responds to idle tuning quite well and drives a bit fat but I want to work this lean stumble out which is manageable where I have it now but would prefer to get it crisper.
 
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Your metering blocks are probably 3 hole .028, plug the bottom hole on each side on both metering blocks. Leave the 67 IAB in and change the MAB to .031. The overdrive is going to need the AFR a little fat on the upper end of the idle circuit and the 67 IAB will do the trick. Put a 35 nozzle up front and make sure the squirt is instant without bootoming out the accellerator pump. The adjustment is very close on a blue cam 30cc pump. You should not need a blue cam on the secondaries for the street. Orange cam for the secondaries should work. If you are going to restrict the T slot only the primary needs to be done. Make sure both T slots are even and not over exposed on both the pri and sec. Don't get concerned with chasing a 14.5 AFR number. You are reading an average of 4 cylinders. Plug reading and performance are more important than the number on the gauge.


I haven’t seen a QF block with 3 emulsion but I don’t think I’ve had that SS carb here yet. Good to know.
 
I haven’t seen a QF block with 3 emulsion but I don’t think I’ve had that SS carb here yet. Good to know.

Hopefully I can get some pictures on here soon.

My garage is a mess as my kitchen stuff is all packed up and stored in there for a remodel in progress, so all my workbench space is being used as storage. But I have a Plan B, getting time to pull it will be the biggest challenge. I need a distraction for the wife and kids....
 
Hopefully I can get some pictures on here soon.

My garage is a mess as my kitchen stuff is all packed up and stored in there for a remodel in progress, so all my workbench space is being used as storage. But I have a Plan B, getting time to pull it will be the biggest challenge. I need a distraction for the wife and kids....


Send the to the beach. It’s not that far from where you are!!!
 
I haven’t seen a QF block with 3 emulsion but I don’t think I’ve had that SS carb here yet. Good to know.
Here is a pic of one out of my HR850.

9ED71798-01EC-4005-A5C7-495F91E36DB7.jpeg
 
Here are some pics of mine and main body. This is on the primary side. I have not removed the secondary side. Sorry it was still shiny from fuel.

PXL_20210519_224502352.jpg


PXL_20210519_224506698.jpg


PXL_20210519_224512318.jpg
 
Here are some pics of mine and main body. This is on the primary side. I have not removed the secondary side. Sorry it was still shiny from fuel.

View attachment 1715739942

View attachment 1715739943

View attachment 1715739944


Well beat me with a broom and call me Sally. I’d pin those emulsion holes and see what they are. You need to block off the middle one.

Also I can see the idle feed restrictor is at the top. It needs to be moved down to the lower hole. You’ll need some 6-32 x 3/16 brass set screws, a 6-32 tap, a 80-61 drill set and a pin vise so you can drill and tap what you need.

EDIT: my bad. TJ noticed and I didn’t that the emulsion is already tapped. So you can buy blanks and drill them to size or buy those already drilled. I don’t think you can do that for the idle feed restriction. You’ll need to tap those.
 
So do this to move both IFR? If so do they need recessed in the block?

upload_2021-5-19_18-8-11.png


I looked at the emulsion channels, very hard to see in there. I don't have a pin gauge set. Should there be small orifices behind the threads or are the inserts the restriction?
 
So do this to move both IFR? If so do they need recessed in the block?

View attachment 1715739985

I looked at the emulsion channels, very hard to see in there. I don't have a pin gauge set. Should there be small orifices behind the threads or are the inserts the restriction?


No, the IFR’s go in a different position. I’ll take a picture of one of my blocks in the morning so you can see where they go. It’s easier to take a picture that try and explain it.

If you can figure out what size holes are in the emulsion and it’s not ridiculous (I’ve seen them as big as .033) you can just block the one you don’t need.

If you want to be able to tune them then I drill out the holes in them to .080ish and put the hole I want in the brass.
 
I believe this is the suggested lower IFR location: Spray some carb cleaner through it and you'll see the path that the fuel flows. Those metering blocks are like cool little mazes. I've always been able to achieve more stable AFRs with the lower IFRs.

upload_2021-5-20_6-24-14.png
 
I believe this is the suggested lower IFR location: Spray some carb cleaner through it and you'll see the path that the fuel flows. Those metering blocks are like cool little mazes. I've always been able to achieve more stable AFRs with the lower IFRs.

View attachment 1715740099


Thanks for the picture. That’s where it goes. I still haven’t learned how to take a picture and write on it. Someday I may get some mastery over the computer. Or maybe not.

And you are correct. Lowering the IFR will produce much more stable AFR at idle.

There is a paper on that. I’ll see if I can find it and link it here.
 
Thanks. I ordered some pin drills, hopefully I can flip then to measure the emulsion port size and make some Swiss cheese if I need too. If I could go into to work I have a go-no-go pin set I could use. I'll hunt down a 6-32 bottoming tap and predrill.
 
Maybe @Mattax will see this and post a link to the paper.
Lower IFR papers ? That would be NACA 49 http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1920/naca-report-49.pdf

Most relevant conclusion Mark quotes at RFS is..
"Submerged metering passages are free from instability and irregularity of discharge when the head is very small".

I'm going to cut and paste the rest of Mark's summary..
"What this mean is that on a performance engine with low idle vacuum the idle characteristics will be improved with the idle feed in the lower position. Because the idle circuit can impact the the air bled into the mainwell at high speeds, it may be that someone in the past saw an improvement on a specific engine at high speeds by moving the idle feed up, however with the advent of metering blocks with more emulsion holes to chose from making changes to the main metering does not have to be done by manipulating the idle feed. This was also done without regard to how it affects the idle and transition metering, both are improved significantly when moving the idle feed back to the original location."

and from Tuner
"
Locating the Idle Jet below float level is more important than many people realize because cruising at a low RPM and steady speed the fuel delivery is nearly 100% through the idle circuit (T-slot), and with the jet above float level the AFR oscillates a lot, as much as 2 AFR or more. Smooth idle, clean sparkplugs and oil, and good fuel economy, all depend on a consistent idle-low speed circuit.

An un-damped vacuum gauge will clearly show engine manifold pressure (vacuum) oscillates constantly and as valve timing becomes more radical the increased overlap causes larger pressure swings and more intense oscillation.

An un-damped gauge clearly shows engines are not a steady flow device. The intake pressure (vacuum) is oscillating with each intake suction stroke and overlap reversion pulse. Because passages and cavities in carbs and manifolds have individual resonances at particular frequencies, the resultant effects are more pronounced at some engine speeds than others. Because air is compressible, it is elastic, it can rebound like a spring and as a result it bounces and reverses direction in small passages in carbs.

With a high (above float level) idle jet, air can easily get upstream behind the jet when the idle fuel is pushed backwards by the pulsing.

When the jet is submerged, the air cannot get back upstream of it as easily because the much greater viscosity of the liquid fuel (than air) on both sides of the jet impedes the backflow and the air cannot get back through the jet unless the flow is reversed for a longer period of time than the frequency of the pulsations.

Another undesirable phenomenon caused by the high idle jet is the larger oscillations in the idle circuit causes a pumping effect on the main well that results in the booster nozzle dripping in spurts and blobs before it would normally start to flow if the venturi air flow were the only excitation and the idle circuit flow was more regular. With a submerged jet the metering reversion isn’t as severe or does not occur at all unless the pressure reverses for a longer time period than the manifold pressure (vacuum) pulses at a cruise.

This submerged idle jet phenomena was thoroughly studied and well understood 95 years ago during aircraft carburetor research for World War One."

Above information is from here: Relocating the Holley Idle Jet

I have too many irons in the fire so my apologies for being a little less involved in the forums, even this one.
 
Someplace we've delved into some of the better explanations of why mid and high IFRs are sometimes used. One of those situations that might be relevant for us is to give a shot of fuel during throttle opening. I would think that could be dealt with in pump shot, except of course on vacuum secondaries. That said, I moved the secondary IFRs on my 3310ish vac secondary carb but need more track time to see what's going on.
 
IFRs in a low position.
upload_2021-5-20_15-11-23.png


A secondary block in process of tapping and relocating
upload_2021-5-20_15-14-36.png



Found one of our discussions -
Here's a see-thru version of a idle circuit from the bowl side so you can see the path of fuel to the idle and transfer ports.
H, P, L are the three possible location for idle feed restrictions.
upload_2019-9-16_8-20-2-png.png

Blue represents fuel just sitting at same level as in the fuel bowl.

When there is vacuum at the idle and transfer ports, the atmospheric pressure in the bowl moves the fuel up the idle well and toward the low pressure. When the gasoline is moving strong and steady the small hole from air bleed doesn't allow enough air in to let the connecting passage become atmospheric. Instead it just injects tiny bubbles of air into the fuel flow.
upload_2021-5-20_15-35-17.png
 
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@Mattax @yellow rose

So emusions are predrilled 0.028".

I got pin drills, taps and brass set screws. What do you guys use to hold the bits? Both holders I bought (Gyros brand) hold the bit at an angle or off center. I didn't even try use them knowing the bit would break or I'd get wallowed out hole.

EDIT: I triled to drill one, ended up with a bent bit and basically no hole. This was a .032 bit. I went slow, really light pressure, used oil and fail.

EDIT 2: Broke the bit. Got new bits, these were better quality. Hand drilled 4 after choking way up on the bit, something I was taught not to do as it will skew the bit. Got the blocks tapped, that went well. Just need to clean and reassemble.

Happy Memorial Day!! (well, weekend that is)
 
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