Carburetor Question - Is this a good call?

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Currently on my '65 Commando 273 I have a Holley 4160 . ... I've had nothing but issues with adjustments and sputtering, dying at stoplights (no amount of adjustments seem to keep it going) etc..
OK. Lets start at the top and fix this thing.
> Model 4160 is a very general model identification. The exact model (in non-Holley speak) is the "List number" (Holley speak) stamped on the choke tower. It's probably an 1850-? but maybe not. Find it, post it up.

I know basically next to nothing about carbs and no buddies who have a knowledge base I can pull from. I've rebuilt a Holley in the past, I understand simple adjustments, and can install them.. but I've had no training or whatever in that department ever other than the good ol "Let's see what happens!"
> There's two ways to approach this. Some combination will work for you.
a. Follow a set of directions, procedures and settings. This worked fine with factory stuff, and sometimes works OK with aftermarket.
b. Understanding how it works and then figuring out what changes make sense.
The best intro to how Holley carburetors work is probably the first chapters of Urich & Fisher's Holley Carburetors and Manifolds. Buy a used older edition - you don't need Holleys promotional of their EFI etc.
On-line, Chrysler's Master Tech series is a good option even though not Holley specific.
Follow the link and see 1966 "Carburetor Fundementals", or the slightly revised version in 1970 (adds smog carb and Holley power valve info).

My question is if this carburetor is a good match for the '65 273 (and if it is) any tips on installation and such.
If you had good performance before, then the model is not the issue. Something has changed.

Timing was checked and was already perfect last weekend (I don't have the numbers here but i'll get them soon).
Please check. Although I don't think this is it, it is important. Write down the timing and rpm. Make sure it (timing) advances with rpm once its over 650 or 700 rpm. Reconnect the vac advance.

I rebuild the Holley myself and that was a mistake so I had a very good shop here in San Diego rebuild it professionally.
Not a mistake at all. There's really nothing to 'rebuild' 99.5% of the time. Its just a matter of cleaning and installing new gaskets; then checking the dry settings. Send it out when things are broken, it needs refinishing, and/or is so dirty or corroded it needs a ultrasonic cleaner and other measures.

What plug is that?
Yes. Please check this.
when i'm on the freeway after about 10 mins of driving at 50 MPG i start blowing grayish smoke (no oil consumption, no coolant consumption).
At this point, we could have a float that is set a 1/2 inch to high, and just drowning the thing, thus the dying when coming to a stop.
I agree with Willrun. Overfilling the bowl is most likely culprit.

If you can, after the engine is stopped, look down the carb and see if you can observe fuel coming out of the vents, or the boosters.

If it is, there are only two possible causes. Inlet system is letting in fuel when it shouldn't, or the fuel pressure is higher than it should be.
If the fuel pump and lines haven't changed, then start where you should alsways start in setting up the carb - float levels.

However there are other ways excess fuel can end up in the intake manifold.
One is incorrect or failed power valve gasket, or damaged power valve.

There's others, but these two are where to start.

While the bowl is off, look at the acclerator pump check valve and diaphram.

Yah you're nailing some of my frustration. I'm sure everyone here is right about adjustments on this carb.. in 2004 it ran fine and no smoke. I believe an adjustment or a 4th rebuild...
Uh yes but you've changed carbs, so all bets are off. Something may be different with the replacement.

thanks Mike - back in 2004 when i first got it the carb worked fine for it.. so i know it COULD work for the car. Ive been convinced now that an adjustment like what you stated above would be a fix that would work. I believe the gaskets will all be OK since it WAS rebuilt not too long ago.. but im betting float, power valve, or jets need some help.
Jets could be removed and it still should run fine up to 40 or 50 mph.
If the choke has been fully opening, and the timing is working, the adjustment sequence should be float/fuel level, then idle throttle position, then idle mix. Only after those are good, adjustments can be made forthe higher speed (jets) and for accelerator pump (rapid throttle openings from near closed throttle).

4 days. That's the thing - it runs JUST good enough to cruise about town and look bitchin'. Starts great, cold running wonderfully, warms up and then starts acting like an asshole. At stop lights i kick it in neutral when warm otherwise it'll sputter out.. (i'll raise the warm idle a bit more to help that tonight some) Also, when i want to push on it some a lot of times it bogs out and almost dies.. let go of the gas peddle and then let it come back to life.. then softly continue.. annoying as F.
The last bit almost sounds like vapor lock or running low of fuel in the bowls or in the accelerator pump... I say that because you close the throttle and the engine returns to life.

I know i could google this BUT are there different power valves like how there are different jets? And would anyone know the proper jets/power valve for my application (stock commando 273)?
The power valve opens an enrichment circuit for full power situations. It only opens when close to wide throttle and engine is under heavy load or acceleration. Engines run somewhat rich at idle but then leaner off idle and under part acceleration. But near maximum accleration they need a richer mixture again. See the book and/or the master technician pamphlets suggested above.
 
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I had a 1406 on my 66 formula S with the 273 commando and it was great. No problems there.

If you can find the original 500 cfm avs that would be a good match for the motor too.

Good luck
Just to be "that guy"......original 273 Commando/Charger's used 500 AFB's, not AVS's.
 
Holley gaskets pucker over time. You can rebuild it and run it and then put it on a shelf for 5 years and the block gaskets will look like hourglasses when you pull them . Get the good blue gaskets and put chap-stick on them prior to install. There aint a gasket under the waterline of a Carter. Jets and rods are a cinch to change: just a screwdriver..dont even have to drain the carb. Drives Rich gets a fatter rod, lean gets a thinner one. Takes about 2 minutes to change a rod in a carter, you can almost do it with the car idling. Idle is screws up front. 65 273/4 didnt get an AVS, it was an AFB, Not invented yet. primary and secondary jet are listed. Rods may have been .068 X .050 from a 3447 as the 3447 is a legal replacement carb.

DODGE
1965-67
DART 273”
7043
4119S, 4119SA
AFB

.089
.073

DODGE
1966
DART W/O C.A.P. 273” AT
7045
4120S, 4120SA
AFB

.089


DODGE
1967
DART W/O C.A.P. 273” AT
7045
4120S, 4120SA
AFB

.089


DODGE
1965-67
DART 273”
7047
4121S, 4121SA
AFB

.089
.073

DODGE
1965-67
DART 273”
7049
4122S, 4122SA
AFB

.089
.073
 
Hey all,

So i took the carb off to check out the jets and get some info for the thread and to do my own investigations.. theres a riser / adapter plate for the holley to carter-type bolt holes on the intake manifold and the gasket stuck to the manifold which showed me the following...

IMG_0828-1.JPG
IMG_0833.JPG
IMG_0834.JPG


So i peeled that off and cleaned it up with a wire wheel and put it all to bed. My first step is to find a new adaptor plate (any links all?) and get it on there... i cant believe its been like this forever
 
Hey all,

So i took the carb off to check out the jets and get some info for the thread and to do my own investigations.. theres a riser / adapter plate for the holley to carter-type bolt holes on the intake manifold and the gasket stuck to the manifold which showed me the following...

View attachment 1715448487 View attachment 1715448488 View attachment 1715448489

So i peeled that off and cleaned it up with a wire wheel and put it all to bed. My first step is to find a new adaptor plate (any links all?) and get it on there... i cant believe its been like this forever
I don't think there's any way the motor would run right with all that mis-matched junk under the carb????????
 
I don't think there's any way the motor would run right with all that mis-matched junk under the carb????????

ya.. things are starting to make some sense all of a sudden. I'm currently combing the internet for an adaptor plate that'll bolt to my intake and allow for a Holley carburetor
 
Why are you running that adapter plate? I'm totally lost. None of this makes the least bit of sense.

If you have a square bore carb (and I think you do but some better pictures or the LIST number off the choke horn would help a bunch, as would what spark plug you have) and a square bore intake manifold, why in the blue oatmeal hell is that adapter on there???

If you have a square bore intake manifold, and a spread bore carb, take the carb, and the adapter and get yourself a BFH and beat the living **** out of both of them so some other poor sucker doesn't end up with that junk and then throw that crap in a river and let the fishes use it for a playground.

This thread is never going to help you if we don't know what you have. And from the looks of it, some of it is straight junk.
 
Why are you running that adapter plate? I'm totally lost. None of this makes the least bit of sense.

If you have a square bore carb (and I think you do but some better pictures or the LIST number off the choke horn would help a bunch, as would what spark plug you have) and a square bore intake manifold, why in the blue oatmeal hell is that adapter on there???

If you have a square bore intake manifold, and a spread bore carb, take the carb, and the adapter and get yourself a BFH and beat the living **** out of both of them so some other poor sucker doesn't end up with that junk and then throw that crap in a river and let the fishes use it for a playground.

This thread is never going to help you if we don't know what you have. And from the looks of it, some of it is straight junk.

I’ve got the adapter plate because I’m running the stock intake that originally had a Carter and I’ve got my Holley on it. Not the same bolt patterns. When I got the car in 2004 this is the setup it had. That plate and the Holley. Whoever bought the plate before me didn’t do a good job! And whenever I would rebuild or take the carb off I’d never remove the plate. Till now. I was shocked how badly that is done.

I’ll get details on the carb here in 30-45 mins and the plugs as stated earlier are NGK. I’ll get info on them, too. But I agree. I have no idea why someone would run this as a setup. NOW if I don’t need that adaptor that would be great.. but I don’t believe a Holley will bolt directly right up.


yup. Agreed.
 
From the above picture, that intake looks like it takes a square bore carb, like most Holley and Carter/Edelbrock carbs.

That adapter if for adapting a Thermoquad or Quadrajet to a square bore manifold.

Even if the secondary bores on the intake are SLIGHTLY bigger than the primary bores, that is still considered a square bore manifold and the adapter isn't needed.
 
From the above picture, that intake looks like it takes a square bore carb, like most Holley and Carter/Edelbrock carbs.

That adapter if for adapting a Thermoquad or Quadrajet to a square bore manifold.

Even if the secondary bores on the intake are SLIGHTLY bigger than the primary bores, that is still considered a square bore manifold and the adapter isn't needed.

After some research thats what it seems - it looks like whoever put this on used exactly that, a Quadrajet adaptor. I took some pics of it just now when fetching the horn #'s.

IMG_0836.JPG


IMG_0837.JPG


If you look at the first picture, thats the bolt pattern for the intake manifold. The outside studs are what allows the holley to bolt on. Second picture is what was against my manifold which is absolutely incorrect. I need square bore to square bore adaptor plate. My Holley will not bolt to my intake without it.

The horn numbers are 80457-6 and 2706 under that.

The NGK plugs are the G-Power platinum plugs stock "GR4GP 2763"
 
Hey all,

So i took the carb off to check out the jets and get some info for the thread and to do my own investigations.. theres a riser / adapter plate for the holley to carter-type bolt holes on the intake manifold and the gasket stuck to the manifold which showed me the following...

View attachment 1715448487 View attachment 1715448488 View attachment 1715448489

So i peeled that off and cleaned it up with a wire wheel and put it all to bed. My first step is to find a new adaptor plate (any links all?) and get it on there... i cant believe its been like this forever
That intake is the early Carter bolt pattern. A newer Carter/Edelbrock won't bolt directly to it until you drill the 2 narrow bolt holes in the baseplate. @Johnny Dart 's pic shows the narrow and wide pattern on an AFB...
.
img_20151108_084516472_hdr-jpg.jpg


A Holley will require an adapter plate, but not the one you have.
1351935_R_3a093461-9bab-4f2b-88a2-80f5d326de4a.jpg
 
That intake is the early Carter bolt pattern. A newer Carter/Edelbrock won't bolt directly to it until you drill the 2 narrow bolt holes in the baseplate. @Johnny Dart 's pic shows the narrow and wide pattern on an AFB...
.View attachment 1715448546

A Holley will require an adapter plate, but not the one you have.
View attachment 1715448547



There you go OP. That's an adapter you can use. That other thing...who knows how it ended up on there. But it just ain't right.
 
In my humble opinion, unless you are competent at carb rebuilding, I would buy a new one. They are not that expensive, and Edelbrock carbs run great out of the box and are easy to tune. I realize carbs are not terribly hard to rebuild, but if you aren't comfortable doing it, buy a new one. Also, I would think twice about buying a used one unless you totally trust the seller.
 
There you go OP. That's an adapter you can use. That other thing...who knows how it ended up on there. But it just ain't right.

Agreed agreed fully - in the river it goes. Not kidding guys i've been running this car with that for years.. incredible. The primaries had NO breathing whatsoever.. no wonder it acted like an asshole. I'm hunting the internet for that adaptor now and will be reporting back.

Thanks for taking this arduous and irritating adventure with me, all.
 
So the carb looks like an updated 1850 although from the little bit of data on line, I can't see what the difference would be between your carb and an 1850. Both are essentially emissions carbs so the tune up should be very close for what you are doing, once you get that wacky adapter off there.

Now, on to the plugs to see what they are.
 
Agreed agreed fully - in the river it goes. Not kidding guys i've been running this car with that for years.. incredible. The primaries had NO breathing whatsoever.. no wonder it acted like an asshole. I'm hunting the internet for that adaptor now and will be reporting back.

Thanks for taking this arduous and irritating adventure with me, all.
Glad we could get to the bottom of it with you. That's what this site is all about...helping each other!
 
So the carb looks like an updated 1850 although from the little bit of data on line, I can't see what the difference would be between your carb and an 1850. Both are essentially emissions carbs so the tune up should be very close for what you are doing, once you get that wacky adapter off there.

Now, on to the plugs to see what they are.

heh. adaptor will never go back on ever again.. it'll make good wall art.

Glad we could get to the bottom of it with you. That's what this site is all about...helping each other!

Thanks! Almost there for sure. And once i find and buy and install the new adaptor i'll do plugs and wires and a new fuel filter and update here
 
Damn NGK numbers...from what I can find (NGK sent me two power sports catalogue instead of an automotive catalog...I should be getting the automotive catalog in a week or two) your plug crosses to a Champion RN11YC. If so, that may be a bit cold unless you are running 10.5:1 or more compression with a pretty big cam. I go at least a range hotter AFTER you get your carb situation straightened up. I'd also look for a plug that has a 5/8 hex rather than that 13/16 hex. The smaller hex is much nicer to use.

So you may want to see what a Champion RC14YC crosses to in an NGK and use that.

BTW, a platinum plug with an older ignition isn't always a good thing. They are harder to fire and if you are marginal on ignition that plug may be causing misfires because the ignition wasn't designed for that plug. You may not feel the missing, but it can happen.

A copper core plug is cheaper and much easier to fire. Yes, they require replacing at closer intervals, but you may be causing issues with a platinum plug you don't need.
 
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