Charging system and other wiring change help needed

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rod7515

rod7515

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Getting close to changing components for my dart and need some help with wiring. I have had other threads on different questions pertaining to some of this but am hoping I can get all answers in one thread. I am working on a 66 Dart with factory wiring and components. Below is the factory schematics.
View attachment 66Dart wiring diagram A.jpg

View attachment 66Dartwiring diagramB.jpg
I've tried to separate the battery/alternator side because this is the area I need help with. Here is my attempt to separate this section
View attachment 1966 schematic.pdf
I will be changing ignition and using this box and diagram
View attachment DSCN0075.jpg
To do this I need to remove the ballast, I will not be using the ammeter but instead a voltage gauge. The battery will be moved to the trunk along with a shutoff solenoid and a Ford solenoid. So to the wiring gurus(which I am not) what are your thoughts on this. I plan on using a relay for the "heavy red" for the box and was thinking a toggle switch on the 12v switched wire off the box as was recommended to me by members in a different thread on here. The real confusion for me comes from the alt field wire which goes to ballast and how to remove and redo the alt wiring. Remember I am not going to use the factory ammeter.

If I am not very clear on any of this I will answers any of your questions later tonight as I'm doing this on my lunch in the parking lot of a fast food restaurant!

Looking forward to your help.
Thanks, Rod
 
Your pdf link did not work. You can use those diagrams for "some stuff" but they tend to leave things out, like connectors. You can download the factory manual free over at MyMopar

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

Here

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=109

So far as the ammeter the "place to start" is the MAD article which is pretty good, and explains the "whys"

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

Now as to a relay for the "big red" this is a bit convoluted.

In your specific case, that is, using that MSD, there is no need for a relay, IN FACT the big red should ALWAYS be hot. The "small red" for the MSD is like a relay trigger wire. That is what should go to the ignition switch

IN FACT you can (in reality) leave the ballast in place, and simply take the original coil + wire and wire it over to the small red on the MSD. Why? Because it's a trigger wire, and draws very little current. There will be very little if any voltage drop.

If you want to remove the ballast, simply splice all the wiring that goes to it together.

Also PAY ATTENTION to the MSD wiring. DO NOT CONNECT anything at all to the coil EXCEPT the two MSD wires. DO NOT connect the old radio suppression cap or the tach to the coil
 
I'll try that link again.
View attachment 1966 schematic.pdf

Now I wanted to use this diagram as to having the battery moved to the trunk.
View attachment trunkbattwire1.jpg

OK, so I am ok to just eliminate the ballast and splice those wires together. I will redo with all new wire but that was one of the things I was not sure about. I will re read the mad article again and follow that.
Should I keep the fusible link in the circuit going to the starter relay? Or is it better to go with a replaceable fuse?

Thanks
Rod
 
rod7515 said:
I'll try that link again.
View attachment 1714881344

Now I wanted to use this diagram as to having the battery moved to the trunk.
View attachment 1714881345

OK, so I am ok to just eliminate the ballast and splice those wires together. I will redo with all new wire but that was one of the things I was not sure about. I will re read the mad article again and follow that.
Should I keep the fusible link in the circuit going to the starter relay? Or is it better to go with a replaceable fuse?

Thanks
Rod
Click to expand...
reading this w/ interest. I`ve done the same thing w/ an msd6, fast 2.0 fuel inj., single wire 135 amp alternator, complete E Z wireing for the whole car, w/ battery in the trunk. now I don`t have a neutral starter switch because of the ford relay. I haven`t devoted much time to that problem, due to painting the car, and having a messed up knee now. I`m thinking of trying to go back to the Chrysler relay tho. maybe you`ll want o think about that, might save u some time and effort !----------bob
just re-looked at that last diagram , why two relays ? I ain`t the sharpest tack in the box when it comes to wireing !
 
The thing^^ I don't care about with that disconnect is you STILL have a hot wire all the way back to the alternator. If you buy a good quality 4 post (2 pole) disconnect, which are now readily available, you don't need to do that.

Fuse link vs fuse, your choice. Thanks to the stereo industry, there's a good selection of high amp fuses available.

If you do go "one wire" you need to way oversize the charge line. This is because the charge wire is ALSO the voltage sensing, and any drop on that wire, will cause the system to run "low"

I really don't care for "one wire" setups. If you use a regulator with typical 3 wire setup, you can "kill" that excitation wire with your disconnect, and that will kill the engine.
 
Ok, A few questions as I am starting to do the wiring.
First, is for 67dart273, I already have a Flaming River Master disconnect that Ive had for well over a year and cant send back so I would hate to have to change but I would consider it. Let me ask this question and please understand I am not arguing but trying to understand, What is the problem with having current back to alt as long as the switch shuts the car down(per NHRA)? Is it that if the car should be involved in an accident that a short in that wire could cause fire? How does that differ from a factory original wiring? Again please understand Im not arguing but trying to understand your concerns. I have not seen a wiring diagram that would include a 4 post disconnect and maybe if I did I would understand the difference. Also another issue I have is I have already put a hole/grommet in the cars body for the rod operating the master disconnect, so does a 4 post switch work with a push in rod that I could mount the same as my current switch. And what part # would i order? (I use Summit Racing)

Now with the system I may be forced to use because of where I am invested into(lol) I need to run a wire from the alt to the "ford solenoid" which I have gone with a continuous duty solenoid, is 10 gauge heavy enough? Also should that wire have either a fusible link or fuse in it. I bought some circuit breakers as well would they work better?
Now the wire I would need to run from the Continuous duty solenoid to the starter be 2 gauge?
Im hoping to be able to move the factory starter relay to under the dash. That will require a 2 gauge wire that comes off the master disconnect and go directly to the main stud on the relay. Also on that lug will be the system power wire which since I am dong the MAD update should be the wire that connects both sides of that circuit that was cut and spliced together eliminating the ammeter? What gauge should that be?
The MAD change shows the battery wire from the alt going to that relay stud but with the change i am making with the battery to trunk and master disconnect/solenoid in trunk I plan on that circuit going back to solenoid as I mentioned above.
Im looking forward to any comments or other suggestions.
Thanks in advance for your help. I hope to turn a switch and start this engine in the next 2 weeks so these issues need to be resolved.
Thanks Rod
 
Are you replacing the ford solenoid with a CD relay in the above schematic?

If so, you are going to be in for a rough time. A CD relay in that location is the WRONG item.

No way is a 10 gauge wire good from alternator to the rear of your car. It's not even good enough or the short run from alternator to starter relay up front.
 
rod7515 said:
What is the problem with having current back to alt as long as the switch shuts the car down(per NHRA)? Is it that if the car should be involved in an accident that a short in that wire could cause fire? How does that differ from a factory original wiring?
Click to expand...

There are many that do this. This leaves (depending on your wiring) what can be a very large, no 8 or larger, "hot" wire all the way from the battery up front to the alternator. Even something "as small as" no 10 is certainly large enough to start a fire. It is difficult to fuse something that large, because of the nature of alternators. One that is charging a dead / down battery for a long period might cause "nuisance" tripping blowing of a fuse / breaker.

My "scenario" is that you had a crash, upside down, whatever trapped, and fuel leaking, etc. There you are with this nice big no8 (or larger) "welding lead" that migiht be sparking

The NHRA rules makes some reference to "kills all power" or some such. In my opinion, leaving that wire is against the spirit of the rules, if they were not worded better.

So far as the linkage working, etc, don't know. I have no idea how many types of switches, handles, linkage, etc, there might be.
 
There are several ways to wire up a 4 post (2 pole switch). All that I've seen have two heavy terminals, and two lighter ones.

If you have EFI, or MSD ignition, "it's easy." You just wire your "ignition run back to the disconnect, to the small terminals, and back up front. You use that wire to kill the EFI, or to kill the MSD box "the small red."

If you have some other ignition, you can use those terminals to operate a relay which fires the ignition system

If you have an external voltage regulator, or a "3 wire" alternator, you can use those disconnect terminals to "kill" the VR exciter wire.

This will insure that when the switch is pulled, the engine does not "run on" with the alternator, and kills ALL power.

I know crackedback^^ above has an alternate scheme that he's posted.
 
rod7515 said:
Im hoping to be able to move the factory starter relay to under the dash. That will require a 2 gauge wire that comes off the master disconnect and go directly to the main stud on the relay.
Click to expand...

If you are moving the starter relay, there is no need for such large wire to it. If you are using that stud for a junction point for other loads, just run the main cable to the starter, and smaller gauge wires from the starter battery stud, and the starter solenoid stud, up to the starter relay. Size the battery feed to the relay to match whatever loads you are using. If you are using it ONLY for the starter, no 10 is large enough. No 12 "might" be. All you are doing is energizing the starter solenoid in the starter with that relay.
 
rod7515 said:
I am dong the MAD update should be the wire that connects both sides of that circuit that was cut and spliced together eliminating the ammeter? What gauge should that be?
The MAD change shows the battery wire from the alt going to that relay stud but with the change i am making with the battery to trunk and master disconnect/solenoid in trunk I plan on that circuit going back to solenoid as I mentioned above.
Im looking forward to any comments or other suggestions.
Thanks in advance for your help. I hope to turn a switch and start this engine in the next 2 weeks so these issues need to be resolved.
Thanks Rod
Click to expand...

Since you are making so many changes, I would not worry about the MAD thing at all. You are running the alternator somehow direct to the battery, that pretty much eliminates the bulkhead problem. You need a good "big" junction point to run the loads in the car, whatever they might be. The physical layout is hard to visualize without photos. On my own car, EG, I bought a marine "feed through" which goes through the firewall. The "main" battery comes from trunk, up the wiring trough, to the feedthrough, and through the firewall. Also connected to that feedthrough is the "takeoff" wire feeding the main fuse box. On the engine bay side, one wire then goes from the feedthrough to the starter
 
67Dart273,
I was shown this diagram earlier tonight. Is this the way you would do the rewire? If not do you have a diagram. Also are you recommending using an 8 gauge for the alt to battery?
View attachment madtrunkbattwire.jpg
I understand your concern with the hotwire from alt.
Thanks Rod
 
Make sure that 4 pole is rated for your alternator output. The cheap ones are usually rated to 20 amps. More expensive, in the 100 amp range are in the 75+ range for cost.

You can buy a lower dollar cutoff, ford solenoid and a CD relay for under the cost of a appropriately rated 4 pole switch. If one of them fails, you aren't spending another 75+ again.
 
I have both a Continuous Duty relay and a ford solenoid. What is the difference in how they operate? Its a little confusing for me. If I change to a 4 post switch I would like to find one that uses a push pull rod since I already built a bracket and drilled a hole in body for the rod!
Rod
 
No replys on the difference between the ford relay and a continuous duty relay? Anyone?

If #10 wire is not big enough for the ALt to trunk run will #8 be big enough. I am having trouble finding #8 without having to buy a 100' roll. I can buy #6 @ $2.19 ft but is that over kill and more of an expense then I need to go with?
Where is a good place to buy #8 if that is heavy enough. When I searched the web I didnt find anything except for sound system lead wire and I didnt think that was the right stuff. Thanks
Rod
 
Depends on what exact relay, Ford or continuous you have.

The MAIN thing between them, and the reason you don't want to use a continuous to switch a starter, is this:

The contacts are rated at far less current. Part of the reason for this is the coil itself. Relay contact ratings in part depend on the amount of force closing them. Starter solenoids generate a LOT more contact closing force than do continuous, and the reason is that they have heavy coils that generate a lot of "pull." This of course is the very reason a Ford solenoid cannot be used continuously

The second thing is relay wiring. "The number of terminals" does not tell the story. Typical 12V Ford pass car / truck solenoids have what is commonly called a "grounded base," meaning that the S terminal and ground actuate the relay coil. The second small terminal, "I" was used for ballast resistor bypass for starting. The older GM starter solenoids are the same way.

But not all solenoids are wired that way. Some have two small terminals, and they are the coil terminals, sometimes called "insulated base." Most continuous solenoids either have 4 terminals, "insulated base," or three.....on small and two large, and they are "grounded base."

You cannot hook a Mopar neutral switch to a Ford solenoid. You CAN however use a "Ford like" solenoid that was used on AMC/ Jeep for a few years. These look just exactly like a Ford solenoid except they have an extra bullet "push on" terminal for the coil. So they are "insulated base" and also have the "I" bypass terminal. 5 total.
 

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Cut my first 2 wires tonight for the battery to solenoid and solenoid to cut off switch. I am going to take them to the local parts house tomorrow to have the correct ends crimped on. I decided to go with the ford solenoid with a 2 post cut off switch mainly because I already had those parts. I do realize I will have a hot wire coming from the alt into the trunk. Right now I will put that wire into a sheath for some added protection. At some point in time(before I go racing) I will change this and go to a 4 post switch but I want to try to fire this up in the next 2 weeks.
I ordered 25' of 8 gauge wire today for the alt to solenoid. Nobody seems to carry 8 gauge! I'm hoping that will be heavy enough for my needs. I am only running the factory alt which im not sure how many amps they put out in 66. (up to 60?)
Cant work on the car tomorrow so I will be back at it on Thursday night. I want to get the trunk into the dash area completed then move forward. Im sure this is going to take me at least a couple of weeks.
Thanks for all the help and advice so far. Please let me know if I am doing something that is not going to work or I should change.
Rod
 
I am hoping to get some response back on my thoughts below. Please be honest on your thoughts. You wont hurt my feelings. I really only want to do this one time.

I am going to be trying to hide as many wires as I possibly can. Here is my thought for the passenger side for my alternator wire that goes from the alt to the Battery in the trunk. I am using 1/2" aluminum line for a carrier out under the passenger fenders. The tube goes into the passenger compartment just behind the heater box. It will then go down behind the kick panel and and follow back thru the passenger side channel and into the rear compartment then thru the trunk to the battery. It is an 8 gauge wire. I will probably put some sheathing around the wire while it is in the pipe but once its in the car not sure if that needs covered. If this works I will probably do the same on the drivers side for the feed wires for the relays. I also bought 25' of 5/8" aluminum line that I could also run my starter wire out under the drivers fender. The one thing I am finding out is that I will need to put the wiring into the pipe before I bend it because it is so stiff that I won't be able to snake it thru once its bent. Here are some pics:

View attachment DSCN0580.jpg

View attachment DSCN0581.jpg

View attachment DSCN0582.jpg
Thanks Rod
 
Trying to get some wiring done and need some àdvice from the experts here on FABO. I decided to put a plate over the area for the bulkhead connection and rewire from that point forward but bring my needed wiring out from under the inner fenders to hide it. I'm working on the installation of the ignition box and the removing of the ballàst from the system. Here are the questions I have at this point. From the voltage regulator comes a DK blue wire that goes to one side of the ballàst. That wire is tied into a wire that is DK blue with tracer that goes to ignition and they slide down over terminal on ballast. On other side of ballast are 2 wires as well. One of them are DK blue and goes to POS side of coil, the other wire from that post goes back to ignition switch as well but different terminal on the switch. Now since my ignition box has its own coil wires for both the POS and neg I am assuming I don't need to run the wire that would have been from the ballàst to coil or the original wire from the neg coil to the distributor. I've also read and have been told on this forum no other wires except those from the ignition box should go to the coil. Is my thinking correct?
Next is the positive wire from the alternator going back to the battery area since it is moved to the trunk. I am planning on putting in line a 50 amp maxi fuse assembly to protect that circuit and wire. I would place the fuse near the solenoid but will a butt connector be a good way to tie that in to the 8 gauge wire I will be using?
Thanks for any help. I will have more questions as I go forward. It's taken me a while to get to this as I've had some back issues that have kept me from doing much work lately.
Thanks Rod
 
Hey Rod, I used butt connectors on my headlight circuit fuse holders. but..I really don't like them there and may end up changing to something I can solder. you could use an uninsulated butt type. crimp solder and then shrink tube.
Did you bend any of your 5/8 conduit tubes?
 
What ignition box are you using? You have to understand we can't imagine what you are doing, "we ain't there"
 
No luck with bending the 5/8 tubing yet. Still trying to find a bender for it.
Rod
 
Here is the pic and diagram of my electrical box.
DSCN0079.JPG

DSCN0075.JPG

67Dart273, I still havent made a decision on which way to wire up the master cutoff switch. Im thinking of ordering a 2 post cut off but even the diagrams I have seen for them has the starter before the cutoff and the NHRA book states "must stop all electrical functions". Is that even possible?
I know I should pick a way and go but really would like to do this only once.Thanks for everyones help.
Rod
 
Ok, After beating myself up for a few weeks and going back and forth with what would be the best way to do this I decided to buy a new 4 post cut off switch and go with this,
batt-cuttoff_zps468a9a9f.jpg

The only change I have made is instead of running a cable from the starter back to the starter relay I ran a second cable from the cut off switch to the starter relay. Both wires from the cut off switch coming forward are #2 cable. My only reason for that change was it makes it easier to hide the cables from view. In order to go thru the firewall I am using this feed thru connector from NAPA which is mounted up under drivers side of dash just behind the vent. Pic below shows it on the left side. Also you can see where I mounted the starter relay.
DSCN0592.JPG

The one with stud/lug only will go to starter from other side and on the starter relay is the 2nd cable from cut off switch.
Now from the starter relay on the same main stud I ran a 10 gauge wire that I put in a 50 amp maxi fuse that went to the continuous duty solenoid (A terminal). The solenoid is mounted just above the voltage regulator under the passenger compartment kick panel. see pic below. You cant see solenoid but its above regulator and to the right.
DSCN0589.JPG

Now off the same post (A terminal) on the continuous duty solenoid I ran the alt wire (8 Gauge). The field wire from the Alternator is 14 gauge to the field side of the regulator. I hid the Alternator wires inside a 1/2" aluminum tube in pic below.
DSCN0580.JPG


Then from the Regulators Ignition side is a 14 gauge to the "b" side of the duty solenoid.
I will power the duty solenoid with a 14 gauge wire that will be the bulkhead Af/VR"i"/Ballast wire back to the cut off switch then from the cut off switch with a 14 gauge back to the duty solenoid power feed.
So I am hoping all this will work and that my wiring thoughts will be heavy enough. With everything under the dash my runs are very short.
If this will be OK then the only thing I need to do in order to start this would be to wire the ignition box up.
DSCN0075.JPG

The question I have with this ignition box is why do they have a heavy red wire that needs to be hot at all times? Will this draw any current when key is off since they want it to battery power?
Crossing my fingers that I get to start this thing this weekend!!
Thanks Rod
 
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One thing I forgot to mention in the above post. The diagram was passed on to me by 72bluNblu, when I contacted him about the diagram he told me that this was given to him by 67dart273.
I didnt want anyone to think I was smart enough to figure this out!
So my thanks to both of them for helping with this.
Rod
 
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