Cylinder head dyno shoot out

[gzig5]

i thought it was the same casting but the pro maxx has a proprietary porting program that gives it that exxtra?

That is my understanding but could be wrong. I have the standard 171cc version that are supposed to flow about 255 cfm. I haven't looked at them in a while and need to dig them out.

Didnt they have different levels of porting? Like as cast then “shocker” or something like that?

The Shocker is their "CNC" version that has a 185cc port and I think a 2.050" intake valve. Says they flow 285 fm.

 

[junkyardhero]

Not the 2 in the pink 1 in the stink kind of shocker.

Shocker 185 Mopar CNC (Sold in Pairs) - PROMAXX Performance Products
This kind of shocker.

how did they not call their MAXX series the BLAST-MAXX?

it was *right* there...

it looks like the difference betwixt the two besides the 171/185 cc runner is "full cnc" and a 2.08 valve

price doesn't look too bad, either.

 

[TT5.9mag]

That is my understanding but could be wrong. I have the standard 171cc version that are supposed to flow about 255 cfm. I haven't looked at them in a while and need to dig them out.

The Shocker is their "CNC" version that has a 185cc port and I think a 2.050" intake valve. Says they flow 285 fm.

That’s my understanding as well. Now are the speedmaster as cast and cnc the same two heads as the promaxx and shocker?

 

[ValiantRacing]

Well, might change it up a bit, I realized I have a rotating assembly allready done for a stock stroke 360 I was going to enter in a build contest that never materialized. Anyone have any issue if it's a 365 instead of a 408?

I would rather see the 365 over a 408

 

[RustyRatRod]

Well, might change it up a bit, I realized I have a rotating assembly allready done for a stock stroke 360 I was going to enter in a build contest that never materialized. Anyone have any issue if it's a 365 instead of a 408?

That could appeal more to the budget crowd.

 

[cookietruck]

That’s my understanding as well. Now are the speedmaster as cast and cnc the same two heads as the promaxx and shocker?

Pretty sure they’re different cnc programs

 

[gzig5]

That’s my understanding as well. Now are the speedmaster as cast and cnc the same two heads as the promaxx and shocker?

No. The ProMaxx are castings are machined and assembled in the US (Alabama) as far as I know. I spoke to the owner about having the Shocker treatment performed on the standard ones I have, and he was very good to talk to and the cost was very reasonable, but I didn't follow through at the time.

 

[PRH]

I’ll just make this comment about the displacement…….realizing that using what’s on hand is the preferred path for obvious reasons.

That being said, I feel like a stroker built to accommodate power levels approaching 600hp would do a better job of differentiating the power capabilities of each head.

The object is to see the power potential of the different heads, right?
Put them on a short block combo that will use them up.

 

[Earlie A]

That being said, I feel like a stroker built to accommodate power levels approaching 600hp would do a better job of differentiating the power capabilities of each head.

The object is to see the power potential of the different heads, right?
Put them on a short block combo that will use them up.

That's my thoughts as well. Some of these heads are CNC'd with stroker motors in mind and have chamber sizes that will give a lower compression ratio on a 365. The 365 would also have to be spun 800-1000 rpm higher to get the same max hp numbers. When do valvetrain issues become a problem?

 

[PRH]

No one asked, but I’ll offer up my .02 anyway….

I’d use some off the shelf “affordable” forged piston that put the compression in the 10.-10.5cr range with a 65cc head(I wouldn’t argue against flat tops).
Shoot for “0” deck, and then whatever the CR ends up with the various heads, “iiwii”.

I’d test all the Ede/SM variants as the first phase, then move on to the “others”.
This would allow the valvetrain to be reused for all of the heads in phase one.

Personally, I don’t see the point in testing more than one set of “unported ootb” SM variants.
Use the ones from SM in true ootb form, then a set with the seats done and a quick bowl blend…….then whatever else tickles your fancy.
I do think it would be “interesting” to see how truly “ootb” Ede’s would compare to truly “ootb” SM’s……..I just don’t know that it’s worth doing that test to find out.
I guess you couldn’t really answer that question until the results were in.
If one was significantly better, it’s worth it. If they’re about the same, probably not.

Cam in the mid/hi-250’s, low .600’s lift, 108 lsa, 1.5 rockers.
Something that should easily make 550hp with the ported heads and a reworked single plane for a hot street/strip type build.

I believe the HS made Mancini rockers will fit any of those heads without any spring interference issues.

It’s going to need at least 1-3/4” headers(and 1-7/8” would be better) to not have them be holding back the better heads.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

No one asked, but I’ll offer up my .02 anyway….

I’d use some off the shelf “affordable” forged piston that put the compression in the 10.-10.5cr range with a 65cc head(I wouldn’t argue against flat tops).
Shoot for “0” deck, and then whatever the CR ends up with the various heads, “iiwii”.

I’d test all the Ede/SM variants as the first phase, then move on to the “others”.
This would allow the valvetrain to be reused for all of the heads in phase one.

Personally, I don’t see the point in testing more than one set of “unported ootb” SM variants.
Use the ones from SM in true ootb form, then a set with the seats done and a quick bowl blend…….then whatever else tickles your fancy.
I do think it would be “interesting” to see how truly “ootb” Ede’s would compare to truly “ootb” SM’s……..I just don’t know that it’s worth doing that test to find out.
I guess you couldn’t really answer that question until the results were in.
If one was significantly better, it’s worth it. If they’re about the same, probably not.

Cam in the mid/hi-250’s, low .600’s lift, 108 lsa, 1.5 rockers.
Something that should easily make 550hp with the ported heads and a reworked single plane for a hot street/strip type build.

I believe the HS made Mancini rockers will fit any of those heads without any spring interference issues.

Since no one asked I’ll throw my .02 in with PRH.

IMO the best plan is to first figure out the “why” the testing is being done. Is the testing to find the best street/strip head package (and then you have to define what that “best” is) or is the testing for the best overall torque and power curves, looking at an arbitrary converter stall number?

Once you define the “why” of the testing you can outline the types of test(s) to be done.

Then you have to decide if minor differences in chamber shapes and such will require testing to develop the correct timing curves for the different chambers etc.

Are you going to do lash loops on every head or just optimize the “A” head and run the same lash on every other head?

Are you going to go back to the “A” head at the end of all the testing to verify the numbers have remained consistent across all the testing?

How many pulls on each head?

Do different heads respond to different intake manifolds? If you test for that then you’ll be making probably a hundred pulls or more depending on how many heads are in the test.

Pushrod length affects rocker geometry and lift. If there are different stand heights and locations and the geometry is different how do you know how much of the gain (or loss) is attributed to the head or the change in geometry/lift?

You can really end up in the weeds with this kind of testing. The more heads the more testing.

I agree with PRH about just one chinesium casting. Probably the Speed Master as the base head and then test the TF and the Bloomer head against that head.

I’m excited.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Since no one asked I’ll throw my .02 in with PRH.

IMO the best plan is to first figure out the “why” the testing is being done. Is the testing to find the best street/strip head package (and then you have to define what that “best” is) or is the testing for the best overall torque and power curves, looking at an arbitrary converter stall number?

Once you define the “why” of the testing you can outline the types of test(s) to be done.

Then you have to decide if minor differences in chamber shapes and such will require testing to develop the correct timing curves for the different chambers etc.

Are you going to do lash loops on every head or just optimize the “A” head and run the same lash on every other head?

Are you going to go back to the “A” head at the end of all the testing to verify the numbers have remained consistent across all the testing?

How many pulls on each head?

Do different heads respond to different intake manifolds? If you test for that then you’ll be making probably a hundred pulls or more depending on how many heads are in the test.

Pushrod length affects rocker geometry and lift. If there are different stand heights and locations and the geometry is different how do you know how much of the gain (or loss) is attributed to the head or the change in geometry/lift?

You can really end up in the weeds with this kind of testing. The more heads the more testing.

I agree with PRH about just one chinesium casting. Probably the Speed Master as the base head and then test the TF and the Bloomer head against that head.

I’m excited.

And at least one offset rocker head. W2, W5, or 360-2. Pretty please.

 

[318willrun]

Pretty easy to donate somebody else's time and money ...

I'll just say any data is data that can be considered into the equation of a build in similar ball parks.

 

[PRH]

Something like a stroker with flat tops would be suitable for testing all kinds of other heads/intakes/carbs/cams/headers, etc
……..down the road.

I agree with NT in that it would be pretty easy to end up making endless pulls if you were chasing every horsepower out of every combo………and I understand the merit to the “minimalistic” approach Eric W. took with his cam challenge.

If it were my test(and it was my $$$ funding it), I’d do it my way……..
Which would more or less be an effort to keep the number of runs, at least for the head swap portion, to a reasonable number(for example, the lash would be sorted out with the first set of heads, and duplicated for the subsequent heads).

I also agree that what it is you’re trying to answer will be your guide on how to go about it.

To simplify the fitment when swapping heads, I’d have all the SM style heads be outfitted with the same length valves, and stipulate minimal head milling be done.
The goal being to make the same intake and pushrods be able to be used for all of those heads.

I’d also try and guess which set of SM style heads were best, and test them last.
Then use those for some intake & spacer testing after the heads have been tested.

 

[Bobzilla]

I agree as well, there is no way to spend a ton of time and money making pulls to refine every combination. But, right away when he laid out this plan my mind went to all the regular guys with mechanical skill to do a head swap at home but no experience building an engine or fine tuning a combination. If I am in the market for a set of cylinder heads for a basic 360, or a 408 if he did end up there, and these are my commonly available choices, what kind of "bolt on performance" difference can I expect before choosing one or the other. Most guys don't have a budget to throw on CNC ported Speedmaster heads, be disappointed in some way with it, then buy a set of Trick Flow heads to try and make it better.

As 318Willrun said, pretty easy to donate someone else's time and money. But I think we all want to see SOME testing, any testing, on some of these heads.

Now to really derail this: can we try a set of older B1BA heads too?

 

[fishmens67]

Stock X and unported W2, OOTB Speedmaster and Trick Flow as a baseline, all else would be gravy using ported variations.

 

[PRH]

Overall, I can easily see 5-6 sets of SM heads being tested.
-ootb
-prepped
-basic ported
-high level ported
-cnc + prep
-bloomer

I can also see where the first 3 could be evaluated on a milder 360 type build where the basic ported heads landed you in the 450hp range.
Something with a true street type roller(like a Comp XR274R, 236/242-110).

If future plans called for the 408 short block and a 550hp type build for the higher level heads, then with the 360 perhaps unported oe 2.02 heads and some TF’s could round out that series.

-oe 202
-ootb SM
-prepped SM
-basic ported SM
-TF

 

[Ironmike]

I remember your thread.

Wow! you have a memory like an elephant. That was a loooong read! Thankfully, it ended well. If anything was ever a dyno head shootout, that was it.

I'll never forget the look on my machinist's face when he stuck his finger in those Hughes CNC ports. He still ribs me occasionally on that dealio. Even worse when I drove 2 hours to have them flowed. The guy says " well, they sound like a garbage disposal".

Live and learn. And pay.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Wow! you have a memory like an elephant. That was a loooong read! Thankfully, it ended well. If anything was ever a dyno head shootout, that was it.

I'll never forget the look on my machinist's face when he stuck his finger in those Hughes CNC ports. He still ribs me occasionally on that dealio. Even worse when I drove 2 hours to have them flowed. The guy says " well, they sound like a garbage disposal".

Live and learn. And pay.

I’ve gone back and read it over in the last couple years. There is a lot of good info in that thread. We learned a lot at your expense. Thanks.

 

[Bodyperson]

That is my understanding but could be wrong. I have the standard 171cc version that are supposed to flow about 255 cfm. I haven't looked at them in a while and need to dig them out.

The Shocker is their "CNC" version that has a 185cc port and I think a 2.050" intake valve. Says they flow 285 fm.

Promaxx website says the 171 heads flow 250 @ .500

 

[rumblefish360]

Since no one asked I’ll throw my .02 in with PRH.

IMO the best plan is to first figure out the “why” the testing is being done. Is the testing to find the best street/strip head package (and then you have to define what that “best” is) or is the testing for the best overall torque and power curves, looking at an arbitrary converter stall number?

Once you define the “why” of the testing you can outline the types of test(s) to be done.

Then you have to decide if minor differences in chamber shapes and such will require testing to develop the correct timing curves for the different chambers etc.

Are you going to do lash loops on every head or just optimize the “A” head and run the same lash on every other head?

Are you going to go back to the “A” head at the end of all the testing to verify the numbers have remained consistent across all the testing?

How many pulls on each head?

Do different heads respond to different intake manifolds? If you test for that then you’ll be making probably a hundred pulls or more depending on how many heads are in the test.

Pushrod length affects rocker geometry and lift. If there are different stand heights and locations and the geometry is different how do you know how much of the gain (or loss) is attributed to the head or the change in geometry/lift?

You can really end up in the weeds with this kind of testing. The more heads the more testing.

I agree with PRH about just one chinesium casting. Probably the Speed Master as the base head and then test the TF and the Bloomer head against that head.

I’m excited.

The “WHY” is why not and for curious purposes.

 

[lead69]

@NC Engine Builder I wish you were not so far away, Tim and I would jump in and help out. I have been planning for this same test for a while now and would only be missing the bloomer heads at this point. I have literally every other head you mentioned and more including a fresh 410 short block. Tim has w2 heads/intakes, rockers, tunnel ram hooker 5303's and I have some Brett Miller ported w5s with an intake and race headers, bummer!

 

[rumblefish360]

@NC Engine Builder I wish you were not so far away, Tim and I would jump in and help out. I have been planning for this same test for a while now and would only be missing the bloomer heads at this point. I have literally every other head you mentioned and more including a fresh 410 short block. Tim has w2 intakes, rockers, tunnel ram hooker 5303's and I have some Brett Miller ported w5s with an intake and race headers, bummer!

I made the same offer. BM ported W5’s & Charlie Servidio ported W2’s. Both W5 M1’s, W2 M1 water heated and Tunnel ram. I have a LA - TR that I’d have modified for the W5.

I’d drive up for the tests and rent a room for a short stay.

 

[lead69]

I made the same offer. BM ported W5’s & Charlie Servidio ported W2’s. Both W5 M1’s, W2 M1 water heated and Tunnel ram. I have a LA - TR that I’d have modified for the W5.

I’d drive up for the tests and rent a room for a short stay.

Nice!, if I had the time to do it I would just follow through on our dyno but time equals money and I am short on both lol. It would be awesome to compare his dyno results to ours though, what an interesting bunch of info that would be!.

 

[mbaird]

I made the same offer. BM ported W5’s & Charlie Servidio ported W2’s. Both W5 M1’s, W2 M1 water heated and Tunnel ram. I have a LA - TR that I’d have modified for the W5.

I’d drive up for the tests and rent a room for a short stay.

Were those your heads Seevidio did ? I just rewatched one of those vids an hour ago .
Nice work !