You need to go talk to guys who are currently racing that type of car and pick their brains on how to build the car. I doubt that you'll find any serious racer recommending a Dana 60 for that type of car. You can also call a few chassis shops to talk about building a car like that and see what they say. I'd be surprised if any of them recommended a Dana 60 for that car.
Dana 60 S60 or Ford 9"
- Thread starter Justin Smith
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33IMP
Well-Known Member
It was some sort of poorly welded aftermarket four link or ladder bar setup, with coilover springs.. The whole rear broke out of the car. Impossible with leaf springs. It might polevault on the driveshaft, but the rear would still be under the car.
Duane
Well-Known Member
Just because something is more popular, does not mean it's better or stronger. The vast majority of Ford users use the Ford for its ability to change ratios quickly or in case of breakage like Pittsburg racer has said. It has the most support of gear ratios as well. It has become ubiquitous.
A guy in the pits will probably have one to loan you.
Mark Williams website is full of explanations on why they have increased the diameter of the ring gear twice to improve durability.
They talk about there new ball bearing carrier bearings that work better under deflection.(Lack of Stiffness)
Prior to the s60 a standard Dana was a pita to setup requiring a case spreader that would be bulky to use in the pits.
The threaded adjuster feature was probably not available when most
Ss/ah cars were built. The Ford is lighter in overall weight, although the difference is largely exaggerated.
As I have posted earlier, Williams own website says the Dana is both stiffer and reliable than any third member type rear axle because of its one piece cast centre section, and much cheaper to build. The Dana with its 9 3/4 inch ring gear and the smallest
Hypoid offset of any of the popular performance axles is both stronger and more efficient than the Ford.
Anyone who has setup their own ring and pinion gears on a Salibury type axle will know what a great feature those threaded adjusters are in the s60.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
A/H cars are built/ updated constantly. The S60 has been out for years now.
For some reason you doggedly hang on for some reason to the Dana being at the top of the heap for drag racing rear ends. It isnt. Other than primarily for Mopar bracket cars, the 9 inch is by far the the choice of most anybody making serious horsepower. Period.
Duane
Well-Known Member
I have already said that, but other than Pittsburgh racer, no one has
Provided any technical reasons why, only what everyone is using.
And no one has disputed the realistic cost issue of fully utilizing the main asset of the 9 inch which is its drop out centre section.
I believe one of the major mags did a direct comparison of the 9 inch, the 12 bolt ,and the Dana. The Ford absorbed the most horsepower,
The Dana and the 12 bolt were a dead heat. They also took out all the variables for weight, and concluded that factoring in variations
In brake weight, and axle weight etc, the Danas excess weight is exaggerated. I have never disputed the popularity of the Ford, and it s aftermarket support. I am only ( with supporting info) saying that
That style or design of axle is inherently weaker and less rigid and costs more $$ to utilize its main features. A rear axle does not know whether it's under a bracket car or a super stock car. It can handle the torque thrown at it or it can't.
What I don't get with this thread is that some are saying the Ford is stronger than a Dana, never was. 9 3/4 ring gear is king.
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B3422w5
Well-Known Member
anybody building anything fast isnt going to scrimp on the rear end.
And its not that the pig is removable is such a big deal
The big deal is that TONS of aftermarket goodies exist to make the 9 inch to any level you want. The selection and availability is staggering.
The Dana soldiers on mainly because of guys exactly like you, who either doggedly considers Dana a Mopar only supplier, or who refuse to consider why 99% of people who are serious racers making serious power have no use for a Dana.
If my 8.75 breaks, i would buy an S60( been there done that already with other cars) but i am a bracket racer and can get by with a Dana
justinp61
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I'm not a Dana hater, as I've said before I have a S-60 in my car and it's been flawless.
Guys keep stating the Dana is stronger and takes less power to run but never have any numbers to back it up.
How much stronger does a good aftermarket 9" case need to be? There are plenty of guys going 1.0-teen 60' that aren't having any issues breaking them, so apparently they are strong enough. How about the power to run them? If there was any ET to be found by dumping a 9" and going to a Dana the fast heads up guys would be doing it. Also if the Dana was faster, changing the gears out at the track wouldn't be an issue, these guy are smart enough to have the pinion shims set up ahead of time to make the change faster. The aftermarket support for the 9" has been mentioned but don't think that if there was a strong demand for Dana parts, (mainly pro gears) there wouldn't be companies making them.
Guys keep stating the Dana is stronger and takes less power to run but never have any numbers to back it up.
How much stronger does a good aftermarket 9" case need to be? There are plenty of guys going 1.0-teen 60' that aren't having any issues breaking them, so apparently they are strong enough. How about the power to run them? If there was any ET to be found by dumping a 9" and going to a Dana the fast heads up guys would be doing it. Also if the Dana was faster, changing the gears out at the track wouldn't be an issue, these guy are smart enough to have the pinion shims set up ahead of time to make the change faster. The aftermarket support for the 9" has been mentioned but don't think that if there was a strong demand for Dana parts, (mainly pro gears) there wouldn't be companies making them.
dartcuda1
67 Barracuda 500ci 6sp
Absolutely not true
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
absolutely is true.
dartcuda1
67 Barracuda 500ci 6sp
Whatever you say
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
Yantus and his gang have been putting together another A/H car in that stable( Stephen won Indy) and yes, i do know what i am talking about.
Those cars are constantly evolving, getting upgrades all the time. One is pretty much in the works at the chassis shops where most are built all the time.
I hope you are not honestly arguing that point.
Duane
Well-Known Member
There is no articles or tests that I know of to prove a strength comparison. But you can apply some basic physics to understand
Why one axle would have a higher torque rating than another.
Think of your torque wrench when you tighten a bolt. The further away your hand is from the bolt, the more mechanical leverage you have. Now apply this to your pinion gear teeth. The larger in diameter the ring gear is, then the further away from the differential
Centreline you can place the pinion gear. The further away the pinion gear is away from the centreline, the more leverage the gear has to try and turn your wheels. If your pinion gear has an easier time turning your wheels, the less likely it is to break.
Now those gears also need to stay in perfectly aligned mesh to have maximum gear life and avoid breakage. This requires stiffness
In the gear housing. Flex allows the gears to become misaligned.
When a banjo a banjo axle is loaded hard, the ring gear tries to get away from the pinion. When it does this it loads and flexes the axle differential caps. Particularly the drivers side.
Because a Salibury design axle traps the differential bearings against the cast iron case, the axle caps flex much less and are able to keep the ring gear more firmly aligned with the pinion gear.
So ring gear diameter and stiffness of the differential case make the
Dana very strong.
The aftermarket has beefed up the Ford to the point that it has the best of both worlds. Easy to service, and strong enough for extreme performance, but it is still not as strong as the Dana because of the banjo design and the 9 inch ring gear. But the aftermarket has increased the diameter of the Ford to gain strength. But there is a major cost to get to that performance level, which the Dana always had. IMHO.
justinp61
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I understand. The point I'm making is that the 9" is strong enough regardless of any design flaws, aftermarket of course.
dartcuda1
67 Barracuda 500ci 6sp
dartcuda1
67 Barracuda 500ci 6sp
But he's not building a car for a h racing that's where the difference is like I said whatever you say
Duane
Well-Known Member
I agree absolutely, that's why its everywhere.
33IMP
Well-Known Member
I would like to make a point. The original 9" was not a world beater. The majority were open, if it did have a limited slip, it was weak, the 28 spline axles were smaller and weaker than 30 spline 8 3/4 axles, and the gray iron center section was very breakable.
Now there were 31 spline, nodular centers, with better "posi"s in them (sometimes detroit lockers!) but they were much less common, thats why they were expensive.
I think the average dana 60 in a mopar was probably twice as strong as the average, stress average, 9".
Now however, as a result of nascar use, gear selection is probably twice as good as a dana. There are now countless ways to make a 9 stronger than a dana (10 and 11" gear sets, fab housings, floaters, big axles, etc.) They just cost BIG bucks compared to a dana. For the big power cars (o.p's 1000hp qualifies imho) i doubt there is a single factory ford part in any of them.
Now for my worthless opinion. I have a factory dana car, an 8 3/4 in a bracket car, a nine under a tube car,and under a back half.
When i upgrade my 8 3/4, for 650-700 hp, i will get a Strange dana. The mopar guys i might want to sell to some day will prefer it.
For a 1000hp car, i would want to see a well built nine, but a 60 that gets the job done wouldnt bother me. I think it is up to the o.p. to decide, i think either can work.
Edit : one last note; if the op narrows a truck dana 60, they come with thicker (heavier too!) axle tubes. Less likely to deflect under power.
Now there were 31 spline, nodular centers, with better "posi"s in them (sometimes detroit lockers!) but they were much less common, thats why they were expensive.
I think the average dana 60 in a mopar was probably twice as strong as the average, stress average, 9".
Now however, as a result of nascar use, gear selection is probably twice as good as a dana. There are now countless ways to make a 9 stronger than a dana (10 and 11" gear sets, fab housings, floaters, big axles, etc.) They just cost BIG bucks compared to a dana. For the big power cars (o.p's 1000hp qualifies imho) i doubt there is a single factory ford part in any of them.
Now for my worthless opinion. I have a factory dana car, an 8 3/4 in a bracket car, a nine under a tube car,and under a back half.
When i upgrade my 8 3/4, for 650-700 hp, i will get a Strange dana. The mopar guys i might want to sell to some day will prefer it.
For a 1000hp car, i would want to see a well built nine, but a 60 that gets the job done wouldnt bother me. I think it is up to the o.p. to decide, i think either can work.
Edit : one last note; if the op narrows a truck dana 60, they come with thicker (heavier too!) axle tubes. Less likely to deflect under power.
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B3422w5
Well-Known Member
They are re doing the wrecked Dixie Hemi A/H car. At least that's what he told me at the NMCA race at Martin, while they were waiting for Charlie to show up with a motor.
Duane
Well-Known Member
You might consider a long ladderbar suspension. Simple, easy to set up. Not sure but someone should make a 34 to 36 inch setup. The front mount may need to have a fairly low bottom adjustment hole due to the torque you will have. Consider a 4.10 to 4.30 ratio rear gear. A 604 isn't going to need much gear. Big Gun afco shocks custom valved to your chosen combo would be my choice. Do some math on how much torque is g o ing through the axles at the hit. That will help you see the need for properly valved shocks. Engine torque x 2 ( converter) x SLR = axle torque.
Justin Smith
Active Member
Whether I go with a 9" or a S60 Dana, It will be narrowed/ 4-link brackets etc. 40 spline axles, pro ring gear etc.
Like I said before, I am not going to be changing gears often, if at all. The only time I would prolly ever change a gear is if I was installing a fresh one, or just experimenting.
Like I said before, I am not going to be changing gears often, if at all. The only time I would prolly ever change a gear is if I was installing a fresh one, or just experimenting.
Duane
Well-Known Member
ironside
Well-Known Member
FWIW-
I changed to a 9” a couple years ago. I run low 9’s with a 4 speed and basically what you describe. I usually run 4.88 to 5.13 ratio and in a Dana when I broke a set after 12 years in 2016 it was a 6 mo wait for pro gears. I tried a set of street gears that lasted 6 passes. I eventually found some used pro gears but I realized I can’t rely on that parts supply.
I can have 9” pro gears in days from several suppliers.
I build 30 or so 9” a year. Theres lots of options and ways you can go. Spools, housing ends, axles, brakes all cost the same. I build a fab or stamped housing for about what a bare S60 sells for minus brackets. I run a Strange ultra case but I can tell you there are pro mods out there running speed master cases. Yukon thru bolts are also a great option.
But I’ll also say there’s an ah racer in Michigan, recent record holder, who would only run steel cases because of deflection and hp loss. For you and I that doesn’t really matter.
2cents
I changed to a 9” a couple years ago. I run low 9’s with a 4 speed and basically what you describe. I usually run 4.88 to 5.13 ratio and in a Dana when I broke a set after 12 years in 2016 it was a 6 mo wait for pro gears. I tried a set of street gears that lasted 6 passes. I eventually found some used pro gears but I realized I can’t rely on that parts supply.
I can have 9” pro gears in days from several suppliers.
I build 30 or so 9” a year. Theres lots of options and ways you can go. Spools, housing ends, axles, brakes all cost the same. I build a fab or stamped housing for about what a bare S60 sells for minus brackets. I run a Strange ultra case but I can tell you there are pro mods out there running speed master cases. Yukon thru bolts are also a great option.
But I’ll also say there’s an ah racer in Michigan, recent record holder, who would only run steel cases because of deflection and hp loss. For you and I that doesn’t really matter.
2cents
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