younggun2.0
Well-Known Member
now we need to see how much nitrous it will take....... lol. this is an awesome dyno thrash with real world numbers.
Dyno testing a stock(?) 1972 440
- Thread starter IQ52
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needsaresto
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Wow very impressive. That torque just keeps a coming! And the h.p aint too shappy for such low compression. Best thing about it is it could be run on crap fuel all day long.
dukeboy440
Well-Known Member
hmm seems like a good plant for an Abody for sure
hollywood hig
King of the assklowns
very kewl thread.........thanks iq........what was the total cost of all the componants? u have a guestimate?
higgs
higgs
69MOPE
Well-Known Member
I am looking forward to you swapping back to cast HP manifolds at some point!
I think it would run some strong 11s in an A body with the right gears.
MRL Performance
Well-Known Member
I agree. I want to see what the loss is at the higher rpm with the manifolds. I have guys asking me this all the time, "how much will I loose with manifolds". And I would like to know what size pipe your running with the manifolds.
Thanks for this thread Jim, its very informative. What was your idle set to, and what was the Vacuum? Not much I bet.
txstang84
Well-Known Member
:happy1:
This is a great thread!
This is a great thread!
Thanks for taking the time and posting this info, very informative
Like RustyRatRod said it shows air flow trumps CR, going 10:1 would of probably added 10% to the power numbers but people building on stock low CR non rebuilt engines porbably should spend more time and money on carb,intake,cam,head flow and headers than worry about bumping up CR a point or two.
Like RustyRatRod said it shows air flow trumps CR, going 10:1 would of probably added 10% to the power numbers but people building on stock low CR non rebuilt engines porbably should spend more time and money on carb,intake,cam,head flow and headers than worry about bumping up CR a point or two.
MRL Performance
Well-Known Member
LOL I really dont see how its a definitive answer that flow Trumps compression on this thread. The compression part wasnt even tested, just the flow.
Cylinder pressure is power, no matter how you get it. Low compression with high flow or low flow with high compression, the results will be about the same. But combined the 2, high flow and high compression and you will see the power go way up.
Take for instance 2 kinds of Circle Track engines. One with max ported heads and big carb, intake, cam will make great power and they normally run around 9 to 1. On the other hand you can have a 2bbl class where head porting is not allowed, smaller intake, small carb limited on cam, but run 12 to 1 compression. The cylinder pressure is whats important. If you have low flow, the compression will help make the cylinder pressure higher for better performance. If you have high flow, the cylinder pressure will be higher and compression can be lower and still have great performance.
Cam design play a big role in this as well. Jim built a awesome 440 making good HP/TQ with less than 8 to 1 compression. Put flat tops on this engine, bump it up to 10 to 1 and it will make well over 500HP/TQ. Just having the piston close to the intake valve ont he intake stroke(*read* zero deck) will make the engine flow even more air, thus increasing the cylinder pressure and making more power.
What is shown here is, you dont need a lot of compression to make REAL power. Its great info. Definitely one for the memory banks for the low budget guys that think they can not make power without compression.
Cylinder pressure is power, no matter how you get it. Low compression with high flow or low flow with high compression, the results will be about the same. But combined the 2, high flow and high compression and you will see the power go way up.
Take for instance 2 kinds of Circle Track engines. One with max ported heads and big carb, intake, cam will make great power and they normally run around 9 to 1. On the other hand you can have a 2bbl class where head porting is not allowed, smaller intake, small carb limited on cam, but run 12 to 1 compression. The cylinder pressure is whats important. If you have low flow, the compression will help make the cylinder pressure higher for better performance. If you have high flow, the cylinder pressure will be higher and compression can be lower and still have great performance.
Cam design play a big role in this as well. Jim built a awesome 440 making good HP/TQ with less than 8 to 1 compression. Put flat tops on this engine, bump it up to 10 to 1 and it will make well over 500HP/TQ. Just having the piston close to the intake valve ont he intake stroke(*read* zero deck) will make the engine flow even more air, thus increasing the cylinder pressure and making more power.
What is shown here is, you dont need a lot of compression to make REAL power. Its great info. Definitely one for the memory banks for the low budget guys that think they can not make power without compression.
Cool test.
Wonder how it would have run with an RPM on it. Probably right in that manifolds wheelhouse.
There's a post on slowparts about guys using low comp engines in their strip cars. Some run pretty stout.
Wonder how it would have run with an RPM on it. Probably right in that manifolds wheelhouse.
There's a post on slowparts about guys using low comp engines in their strip cars. Some run pretty stout.
For a STREET engine that needs pump gas. I guess I left that part out. Of course the power will go up with more compression. But the ability for pump gas goes away. I get the *impression* here that Jim is trying to show us what can be had in a VERY pump gas friendly engine. In THOSE parameters, flow trumps compression. That's what I meant and I'm stickin with it.
No kiddin. This kinda stuff just shows that all those fancy high priced crate engines aren't necessary for a good stout street car. Essentially, you can take a stone stock short block, cam it throw some good heads and intake on and have some real power. For a lot less than the 10K stupidity. I think that's Jim's point and it's a goodun.
whitepunkonnitro
Well-Known Member
GREAT thread, and thanks for sharing! Couple of questions. You never mentioned the head gasket thickness and whether or not the 516's were big or small ex. valve. Also, the test was done with a .509..was it installed straight up, or advanced. Also, what of low comp. specific grinds, like the Hughes Whiplash. What's your opinion on these..what do you think the differences would be on the dyno sheet?
MRL Performance
Well-Known Member
And I agree 100% And for the guy wanting more power that does not want to rebuild the entire engine, jut pop the heads of and port them, swap out the cam/intake and let er rip
Exactly. Not something I would recommend for a high mileage short block, but one with say under 100K that still had even cylinder pressure on a compression test, it will be a kick in the shorts.
Don't have a total, just bought inexpensive stuff for the most part. HV oil pump, stock intermediate shaft (rats, I broke all the rules on that one didn't I? Too bad.) 85 psi cold at rpm, 81 psi at 5800 hot (pull that down to 60 psi and we're over 450 HP), 45 psi idle hot. The cylinder heads would be the expense with the porting, valves, springs, retainers, and locks.
Near 11.60-11.70 @ 3600#
2-1/2" stub right to 3". The thing would idle at 650 rpm 4"-5", 7.5" @ 1000
Right
I believe the RPM intake would have been superior, I only have one and it's on another 440 in a truck.
Darn tired of hearing that the first thing you gotta do is "get that compression up". So they take it to the edge and say, HOWAMI GONNA STOP THE DETONATION!
How are you going to make this one detonate?
pahzackly
8519PT1 gasket, 2.14/1.81, 509/108 LS/103 ICL
Whiplash? Never run one. I think they are for guys who can't make 'um run........so gimme noise. Kinda like, If it don't go fast, CHROME IT!
Doesn't mean I'm right, but that's what I think, you know, my opinion. Get the cylinder heads flowing right on the exhaust side. Put on any set of headers, even shorties. And get rid of the long exhaust duration because you won't need it. Speak softly and carry a big stick. Who wants to sound fast and go slow? Really
MRL Performance
Well-Known Member
HA HA HA So true! Im dealing with this right now. Got a customer we built a 408 drag engine for and he is complaining that it does not sound like a drag engine. But it runs dead stone consistent and is the fastest thing he has ever run. I just smile and tell him, "Loud is not fast, fast is fast so get over it". He just chuckles.
whitepunkonnitro
Well-Known Member
I agree with what you're saying exactly. My curiosity has nothing to do with sound, but rather how a cam ground specifically to build low end cylinder pressure would compare across the board with a more traditional grind like the .509. I'd also be curious to see how that .509 would react with incremental amounts of advance on such a low squeeze engine.
I happen to have a 30,000 mile 446 Motorhome shortblock sitting here that I'm starting to look at in a new light because of this thread...and yeah, what would it make with a small shot. This is good stuff!
We have dyno and the engine to do it. Now, who's paying for it?
moper
Well-Known Member
Exactly. I just didn't want the bullseye on me for saying it.
The right combination will always make power. But the right combination for one may not be for the next.
Three 440s I'm very proud of were used shortblocks with headwork and "oldschool" cams. Two of them used 516 heads. All were pump gas. All used HV oil pumps and stock drives. One used the MP .528, tohers used Crane hydraulics. The most expensive was $1800 plus the cost of a running 440. All either equaled or eclipsed these numbers either on the chassis dyno or on the track. Two were mine, one was a close friend's and there were corners I cut there that I wouldn't on someone paying me to do theirs.
So cool test - but there's not much new here.
inkjunkie
Well-Known Member
Rob, if you still do the FaceBook thing might want to look up Edward Miller. He just set some records at Dragweek. Granted, they are a very high $ head he used but they also flow like a tunnel, Predators. He made enough power on his big cube/Predator headed wedge to push a Duster into the mid 8's....on pump gas. I seen on one of his FB posts where he made mention of using 87 octane pump pee pee. Kinda makes one wonder about compression....
inkjunkie
Well-Known Member
Is the above an "iron clad rule"? Or is it just a generalization? Just asking because I am thinking back to a long gone project that when it was in the upper rpm range still had a small amount of vacuum showing on the gauge....and always wondered if the truck would have benefited from a bigger carbanator.....
I said what I said.
The only reason I would want to see Shitlash or a Dumpr cam numbers would be to see that they don't make any more power than any other "good" match for the engine. I think they are mostly marketing hype.
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