Found my dads original 1971 duster!

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I haven't done a '71 dash removal. You can approach it a couple of ways. One is just remove the components - that's what I've done on my 67 with ralley panel. Other is remove the dash frame itself. I've not done that. Do look for ground wires. On the 67- there is one from the capacitor on the instrument panel to radio strut support (by the ash tray), another on the steering column to dash bolts, and a third from the heater (on top) to behind the right side passenger kick panel.
Awesome! Thank you! I’ll take some pictures today of the wire he jumped to. It was a fairly heavy red wire under the dash assembly near the foot pedals. He cut it leaving enough on each end to join back together. Again, I’ll get some pics today
 
When working with the Ammeter wires......Make sure the battery is disconnected first. Both wires are Hot, and the black wire is NOT a ground.
An important point!
Black wires are often power wires.

Lets begin with this. All of the wires connected to the battery are hot when the battery is connected.
The only protection from a dead short (battery to ground) is the special 16 ga wire called fusible link.
1719491567132.png

Wires on the factory diagram all have codes.
A is Battery. 1 is branch, A is segment. 10 is wire gage, R is red
R6 is Alternator output
J1 is feed to ignition switch

Now lets go to how the system is laid out to get power to where we want.

I find it helpful to recognize the car has two power sources; battery and alternator.
The battery provides power at 12.8 Volt at most.
The alternator provides power at around 14 Volts. Just like water or air pressure, given the oportunity, electrons will flow from the high voltage source to the a voltage. We call the movement of electrons current.

On the car, the battery and alternator each has an output line that is tied together with the main circuits at a welded splice.
Unlike recent generation of cars, this splice connecting the battery and alternator to the main circuits is in the interior harness.
On the diagram below it represented by a solid circle. But the '71 Service manual shows splices as diamonds.

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Everything connected to that splice is connected to the battery positive.
It doesn't matter if the key is off. They are still hot. This why the horn, the brake lights, the dome light, etc will work with the key off.

Ammeter: The ammeter is in the battery feed. The needle deflects when electric current flows past the needle. So it will show disharge during starting and charging after starting. Normally its in the middle since the alternator supplies power when the engine is running. If your 71 has had a leak over that area of the dash and Redfish has explained he had seen to be a cause of occassional problems including ammeter connections. Redfish also posted not seeing ammeter issues with ralley dashes. He saw more dashes than most working in the dealerships etc. Point is its a useful tool, not a boogeyman, and the only time power flows through it is for recharging and starting or turning somehting on when the alternator is not running (ie dome light).

Main feeds: From the main splice there are three or four main feeds.
J1 Power to key switch. This is vulnerable to resistance and therefore heating at the column connector.
H1 power to Horn relay. This is only 16 gage wire since it only has to power the horns
L1 power to headlights. This is only 16 ga wire since it only has to power the headlights. (unfortunately the rest of the headlight wires are 18 ga)
Q2? (Might be Q3) Power to fuses that are always hot. 14 gage wire.

The battery feed when connected should allow the dome light, brake lights, horn, etc to work. If they don't work, then check that circuit.
 
Awesome! Thank you! I’ll take some pictures today of the wire he jumped to. It was a fairly heavy red wire under the dash assembly near the foot pedals. He cut it leaving enough on each end to join back together. Again, I’ll get some pics today
That's enough info. Its probably the battery feed A1. I'm going to guess CFD was on the right path.
That is, the fusible link was damaged or had blown and your friend bypassed the fusable link. So for future reference when a fuse blows, find the reason.

Next will be to look for where there are signs of overheating at all of the connectors to figure out where the problem is. Also look for any wires that may be loose or that have insulation cut or rubbed off.

Here's one of the rare examples of ammeter connections damaged - that seems to be mostly from corrosion. (Not a ralley dash)

More often people blame the ammeter when the cause is elsewhere and the pegged ammeter was ignored. A short in the alternator, a short under the dash, a wire pinched in the steeering column, a wire pinched under the hood, or running the engine to recharge a heavily discharged battery or add-ons like electric fans...
 
That's enough info. Its probably the battery feed A1. I'm going to guess CFD was on the right path.
That is, the fusible link was damaged or had blown and your friend bypassed the fusable link. So for future reference when a fuse blows, find the reason.

Next will be to look for where there are signs of overheating at all of the connectors to figure out where the problem is. Also look for any wires that may be loose or that have insulation cut or rubbed off.

Here's one of the rare examples of ammeter connections damaged - that seems to be mostly from corrosion. (Not a ralley dash)

More often people blame the ammeter when the cause is elsewhere and the pegged ammeter was ignored. A short in the alternator, a short under the dash, a wire pinched in the steeering column, a wire pinched under the hood, or running the engine to recharge a heavily discharged battery or add-ons like electric fans...
Wow. Amazing stuff. I can start to wrap my head around it now. Thank you so much! Just about to take some pictures
 
That's enough info. Its probably the battery feed A1. I'm going to guess CFD was on the right path.
That is, the fusible link was damaged or had blown and your friend bypassed the fusable link. So for future reference when a fuse blows, find the reason.

Next will be to look for where there are signs of overheating at all of the connectors to figure out where the problem is. Also look for any wires that may be loose or that have insulation cut or rubbed off.

Here's one of the rare examples of ammeter connections damaged - that seems to be mostly from corrosion. (Not a ralley dash)

More often people blame the ammeter when the cause is elsewhere and the pegged ammeter was ignored. A short in the alternator, a short under the dash, a wire pinched in the steeering column, a wire pinched under the hood, or running the engine to recharge a heavily discharged battery or add-ons like electric fans...
That's enough info. Its probably the battery feed A1. I'm going to guess CFD was on the right path.
That is, the fusible link was damaged or had blown and your friend bypassed the fusable link. So for future reference when a fuse blows, find the reason.

Next will be to look for where there are signs of overheating at all of the connectors to figure out where the problem is. Also look for any wires that may be loose or that have insulation cut or rubbed off.

Here's one of the rare examples of ammeter connections damaged - that seems to be mostly from corrosion. (Not a ralley dash)

More often people blame the ammeter when the cause is elsewhere and the pegged ammeter was ignored. A short in the alternator, a short under the dash, a wire pinched in the steeering column, a wire pinched under the hood, or running the engine to recharge a heavily discharged battery or add-ons like electric fans...
Here is the wire that was cut and jumped to the battery

IMG_0630.jpeg
 
I don't think you have to pull windshield. You can pull instrument cluster and glove box and reach everything. Pulling steering column frees up a lot of room too. If you pull instrument cluster push towels up under dash frame keep cluster from scratching frame.
 
I don't think you have to pull windshield. You can pull instrument cluster and glove box and reach everything. Pulling steering column frees up a lot of room too. If you pull instrument cluster push towels up under dash frame keep cluster from scratching frame.
Already
 
I don't think you have to pull windshield. You can pull instrument cluster and glove box and reach everything. Pulling steering column frees up a lot of room too. If you pull instrument cluster push towels up under dash frame keep cluster from scratching frame.
Already pulled the windshield successfully! Saved glass and gasket. I’ve tried taking just the rallye dash out, but it seems like it will break if I try any more. Plus the supposed builder has a lot of stuff not plugged in that I can see when I lay and look underneath. He also has everything done wrong or forced into place. None of the vents will slide etc. Looks like I’ll have to make sure everything is redone properly at this point

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It is very sad to catch up and read all the BS you have gone through. It is amazing to see you tackling everything on your own. In the end, fixing these things, you learn about the car, how it works and how to maintain it. @Mattax is a hell of a smart/nice guy. You are in good hands with him helping. Thanks Matt!
 
Here is the wire that was cut and jumped to the battery

View attachment 1716268399
Steering Column connector.
1719507902327.png


red wire is J1-12R. Your buddy left enough room for a decent splice. A lot of the cable bundles in there do not have much slack, but that one probably has enough to do like you planned and not have stress or rubbing.

Black wire with ring terminal. Where does that come from? Is that the other end of the steering column ground?

Side note on terminology:
"Battery" is used for all wires that connect to the battery positive. A more precise term would by Power In, because the power can come from the alternator or the battery, and usually its the alternator. However everyone calls it battery power.
"12 Volt" same concept. It's called a 12 volt system even though normally it runs about 14 volts. It's common usage is fine but when troubleshooting power issues sometimes its really important to be precise about the voltage measurement.
"Alternator" gage. Wish I knew Chrysler labeled ammeters this way. It could be because the alternator was there name for the new (1960) A/C generator and wanted to promote it. If the engine is running and the battery is discharging, the charging system isn't working. So in that a way, its an alternator gage.
 
Nothing so far screams gages failed.
You all connected a "12 V" power source to the key switch feed. Pretty much the same as would be normal.
Nothing else is needed to start.
Where is the other half of that cut wire J1 ?
Even if it the car battery was disconnecte,the main splice would get energized by the alternator once the engine was running. If the other half of J1 touched ground => smoke.
 
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Some tips on rallye dash removals



steve did the whole dash here


67 was last year for the screw on speedometer cable connection.
I'm sure there are other differences
 
Nothing so far screams gages failed.
You all connected a "12 V" power source to the key switch feed. Pretty much the same as would be normal.
Nothing else is needed to start.
Where is the other half of that cut wire J1 ?
Even if it the car battery was disconnecte,the main splice would get energized by the alternator once the engine was running. If the other half of J1 touched ground => smoke.
Thanks so much for all of the help! Noel came by today and helped me get the dash out (amazing of him!). Here are some updates with pics:

Took dash out- no visible burnt wires or connections- took a pic of amp wires as builder installed them. The fuel gauge cluster smells badly of burnt electronic smell

Joined the wire back together than my friend cut

Joined the 2 amp wires (black and red) together with a bolt and electrical tape….hooked battery up and it started instantly!! Runs like a champ!

The wire that my friend cut wasn’t contacting anything while it was cut

So I guess the question is why have I never been able to get power for any lights, gauges etc. Maybe bad amp module?

At this point I’m thinking of taking my gauge cluster in to have everything checked

Also, the ground from the steering column was just hanging there. Not hooked to anything

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IMG_0667.jpeg
 
It is very sad to catch up and read all the BS you have gone through. It is amazing to see you tackling everything on your own. In the end, fixing these things, you learn about the car, how it works and how to maintain it. @Mattax is a hell of a smart/nice guy. You are in good hands with him helping. Thanks Matt!
Thanks! It’s awesome to have the help on here!
 
Nothing so far screams gages failed.
You all connected a "12 V" power source to the key switch feed. Pretty much the same as would be normal.
Nothing else is needed to start.
Where is the other half of that cut wire J1 ?
Even if it the car battery was disconnecte,the main splice would get energized by the alternator once the engine was running. If the other half of J1 touched ground => smoke.
Also, I will try to read through all of the info you gave me and see if I can make any more headway! I just wanted to post an update, in case something popped out at anyone. The pic I took of the original location of the red and black wires on the ammeter are hard to see. I’m wondering if maybe they were on wrong posts? Which posts should each wire be on? I see that one says red, but not sure where black would go
 
Sticks in my head that an ungrounded IP will cause the voltage regulator to send 12v to the gauges that are only supposed to see 5v. Maybe someone can confirm?

No saying for sure that the IP was ungrounded, just an idea I am tossing out there.

The other thing I seem to remember is the fuel gauge is supposed to be isolated from the structure. Can't put my finger on why or what, other than the stock Ralley cluster has the voltage regulator in the fuel gage. Could be if the guy that screwed you put the IP together, he might have put the fuel gauge in wrong and caused a short.
 
Also, I will try to read through all of the info you gave me and see if I can make any more headway! I just wanted to post an update, in case something popped out at anyone. The pic I took of the original location of the red and black wires on the ammeter are hard to see. I’m wondering if maybe they were on wrong posts? Which posts should each wire be on? I see that one says red, but not sure where black would go
I'm tempted to let you figure this one out so you will remember it, and understand it!

In terms of function it doesn't matter if they are reversed. The needle will then point toward charge during starting and toward discharge while recharging. The ammeters I've seen on are only stamped with the R for Red.

A few optional items will occassionally be connected at one of the ammeter terminals. Clock, Convertible top motor, rear window defrost grid (along with heavy duty wiring), etc.
 
I'm tempted to let you figure this one out so you will remember it, and understand it!

In terms of function it doesn't matter if they are reversed. The needle will then point toward charge during starting and toward discharge while recharging. The ammeters I've seen on are only stamped with the R for Red.

L few optional items will occassionally be connected at one of the ammeter terminals. Clock, Convertible top motor, rear window defrost grid (along with heavy duty wiring), etc.
Ya. Thanks. Some things are hard to wrap your head around no matter how much you look at or read them. I’m trying my best, but the wiring end of things is very confusing for me. Seems very complicated. Obviously not to some though
 
I'm tempted to let you figure this one out so you will remember it, and understand it!

In terms of function it doesn't matter if they are reversed. The needle will then point toward charge during starting and toward discharge while recharging. The ammeters I've seen on are only stamped with the R for Red.

A few optional items will occassionally be connected at one of the ammeter terminals. Clock, Convertible top motor, rear window defrost grid (along with heavy duty wiring), etc.
I also forgot to mention that on the threaded portion of one of the studs coming off the back of the printed board it looked like possible a wire touched it and arced. (Pretty important thing I forgot to say in other post). I’ll try to get a picture of that
 
Joined the 2 amp wires (black and red) together with a bolt and electrical tape….hooked battery up and it started instantly!! Runs like a champ!
I'm glad it worked but you got lucky. Stop doing that.
That = When there is a failure that is causing smoke, do not just hook up the battery and turn things on.
Think of those two wires as battery wires - because that's what they are.
When there is a failure find the fault. Multimeter and test lights are your friends. If you have to live test then a light bulb or a circuit breaker (flasher signal) will help protect things.
The wire that my friend cut wasn’t contacting anything while it was cut
Great!
So I guess the question is why have I never been able to get power for any lights, gauges etc. Maybe bad amp module?
I didn't read that you never had power in the car.
The ammeter is not a module. - although now seeing the circuit board I have a suspicion about yours...
Ammeters on these cars (up through '75) consist of a metal plate with the studs pressed into it. Fiber washers etc (depending on the dash) are used to insulate the plate and studs from everthing metal. The electrons moving past the needle create enough magnetic field to cause the needle to deflect.

this is the back of the ammeter used in the rallye dash.
1719529790516.png




Took dash out- no visible burnt wires or connections- took a pic of amp wires as builder installed them. The fuel gauge cluster smells badly of burnt electronic smell

In the photo of your panel - that looks to me like a replacement circuit board.
The ammeter should be attached with real nuts - not the stamped metal speed nuts.

If the connection is poor because the nuts aren't tight - that could be a poor enough connection no substantial current could get through.
While you have it out, make sure the studs are not coming loose from the brass colored plate. Loose studs are no good.

Another possibility is that someone thought they had a better idea ard replaced the ammeter with a voltmeter. A voltmeter can not be placed in line as it is essentially a big resistor.
 
I'm glad it worked but you got lucky. Stop doing that.
That = When there is a failure that is causing smoke, do not just hook up the battery and turn things on.
Think of those two wires as battery wires - because that's what they are.
When there is a failure find the fault. Multimeter and test lights are your friends. If you have to live test then a light bulb or a circuit breaker (flasher signal) will help protect things.

Great!

I didn't read that you never had power in the car.
The ammeter is not a module. - although now seeing the circuit board I have a suspicion about yours...
Ammeters on these cars (up through '75) consist of a metal plate with the studs pressed into it. Fiber washers etc (depending on the dash) are used to insulate the plate and studs from everthing metal. The electrons moving past the needle create enough magnetic field to cause the needle to deflect.

this is the back of the ammeter used in the rallye dash.
View attachment 1716268560





In the photo of your panel - that looks to me like a replacement circuit board.
The ammeter should be attached with real nuts - not the stamped metal speed nuts.

If the connection is poor because the nuts aren't tight - that could be a poor enough connection no substantial current could get through.
While you have it out, make sure the studs are not coming loose from the brass colored plate. Loose studs are no good.

Another possibility is that someone thought they had a better idea ard replaced the ammeter with a voltmeter. A voltmeter can not be placed in line as it is essentially a big resistor.
Ahhh. Ok, my bad I guess. I thought someone said on here that if I joined the 2 wires it isolated the system to just be able to run the car without the rest of the stuff working or causing issues. I’ll have a look at those nuts and see. I don’t think I’m comfortable tacking this electrical myself. I’ll try to track someone down. All of the help is much appreciated!!
 
I'm glad it worked but you got lucky. Stop doing that.
That = When there is a failure that is causing smoke, do not just hook up the battery and turn things on.
Think of those two wires as battery wires - because that's what they are.
When there is a failure find the fault. Multimeter and test lights are your friends. If you have to live test then a light bulb or a circuit breaker (flasher signal) will help protect things.

Great!

I didn't read that you never had power in the car.
The ammeter is not a module. - although now seeing the circuit board I have a suspicion about yours...
Ammeters on these cars (up through '75) consist of a metal plate with the studs pressed into it. Fiber washers etc (depending on the dash) are used to insulate the plate and studs from everthing metal. The electrons moving past the needle create enough magnetic field to cause the needle to deflect.

this is the back of the ammeter used in the rallye dash.
View attachment 1716268560





In the photo of your panel - that looks to me like a replacement circuit board.
The ammeter should be attached with real nuts - not the stamped metal speed nuts.

If the connection is poor because the nuts aren't tight - that could be a poor enough connection no substantial current could get through.
While you have it out, make sure the studs are not coming loose from the brass colored plate. Loose studs are no good.

Another possibility is that someone thought they had a better idea ard replaced the ammeter with a voltmeter. A voltmeter can not be placed in line as it is essentially a big resistor.
It is a replacement circuit board. Someone makes that printed board in Kingston. That’s where I’m thinking of taking it to have it tested
 
I'm glad it worked but you got lucky. Stop doing that.
That = When there is a failure that is causing smoke, do not just hook up the battery and turn things on.
Think of those two wires as battery wires - because that's what they are.
When there is a failure find the fault. Multimeter and test lights are your friends. If you have to live test then a light bulb or a circuit breaker (flasher signal) will help protect things.

Great!

I didn't read that you never had power in the car.
The ammeter is not a module. - although now seeing the circuit board I have a suspicion about yours...
Ammeters on these cars (up through '75) consist of a metal plate with the studs pressed into it. Fiber washers etc (depending on the dash) are used to insulate the plate and studs from everthing metal. The electrons moving past the needle create enough magnetic field to cause the needle to deflect.

this is the back of the ammeter used in the rallye dash.
View attachment 1716268560





In the photo of your panel - that looks to me like a replacement circuit board.
The ammeter should be attached with real nuts - not the stamped metal speed nuts.

If the connection is poor because the nuts aren't tight - that could be a poor enough connection no substantial current could get through.
While you have it out, make sure the studs are not coming loose from the brass colored plate. Loose studs are no good.

Another possibility is that someone thought they had a better idea ard replaced the ammeter with a voltmeter. A voltmeter can not be placed in line as it is essentially a big resistor.
Here is the company that makes the boards

IMG_0676.png
 
Your missing my point.
The board is what it is. It just made me wonder what has been changed.
The ammeter may not be an ammeter - that's what I was getting at.
It should look like the one I posted.
Another view
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If the fuel gage is suspect, then take it out and look at it. It can be checked out - there's a number of threads where we've done this - and also factory tech tips.

Follow your nose and eyes. You see a place where the ammeter stud contacted something - well thats the battery connecting and shorting.

The electrical diagram is just like a road map. We don't take every road, we just follow the ones we're interested in. The electrons follow a path connecting them from positive to the negative.
 
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