Front Hub Diameter for 65 Barracuda - Are there differences between 6 and 8 cylinder?

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olecarguy

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I'm restoring a 65 barracuda with a 225. Found and purchased a 65, 273 2bbl car for body parts, for quarters mostly, mine have been repaired and this one has rust free. Both cars have 13", 5x4" bolt pattern drum brakes. I've had a hell of a time getting the 13" front wheels off the drums on the V8 car. As it turns out, the hub centers on the drums is larger than the wheel center hole. So, someone put the wheels on and tightened the lugs so much that they jammed onto the center hubs. The car has the 7.25 rear and wheels fit the center hole fine on the rear. I've been researching to try to find if a V8 car has a different hub than a S6 car, but my research, looking at MOPAR parts books, etc. indicate that are the same.

Does anyone have an idea what hub/drum combo might be on the V8 car that would be 5x4" but have a hub diameter larger that what fits a normal A body 13" wheel?
 
olecarguy said:
I'm restoring a 65 barracuda with a 225. Found and purchased a 65, 273 2bbl car for body parts, for quarters mostly, mine have been repaired and this one has rust free. Both cars have 13", 5x4" bolt pattern drum brakes. I've had a hell of a time getting the 13" front wheels off the drums on the V8 car. As it turns out, the hub centers on the drums is larger than the wheel center hole. So, someone put the wheels on and tightened the lugs so much that they jammed onto the center hubs. The car has the 7.25 rear and wheels fit the center hole fine on the rear. I've been researching to try to find if a V8 car has a different hub than a S6 car, but my research, looking at MOPAR parts books, etc. indicate that are the same.

Does anyone have an idea what hub/drum combo might be on the V8 car that would be 5x4" but have a hub diameter larger that what fits a normal A body 13" wheel?
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The center register (hub) diameter is the same. As far as having issues getting the wheels off, don't forget that the driver's side has left hand studs... and after all these years it's not uncommon to have a mish mash of replacement parts on them- LH studs/drums/rotors on the wrong side, RH replacement studs where the LH ones originally were, etc.
 
Thanks Professor Fate. I'll really old. I remember MOPAR LH/RH stud/nut issues:thumbsup:. Nuts were off. The only way I could get the wheels off without bending them was to put jacks between wheel and frame, front on rear of the wheel, apply gentle pressure while banging the backside of the wheels with a softer faced 5 lb dead blow hammer. Then once off, you can see the witness marks where the wheel center was "pressed" onto the hub about 1/8" away from the drum face, and keeping the wheel from fully seating against the drum. This was due to the hub being larger than the wheel center. Yet, the drum/hubs are 5x4" pattern. The only car I know of using that pattern is the early A bodies.
 
Not positive on the 65 year, but the 66 and up had either 9 inch or 10 in brakes available. Both are small bolt pattern, but the spindles, hubs, bearings and drums are different. As far as I recall the center hub is the same size, but I could be wrong. It might be slightly different. The 10 brakes got 14 inch wheels, and the 9 inch brakes got 13 inch wheels. I never checked the center hub size between them. I think I have parts of both sizes on hand. If I get a chance this weekend, I'll see what I come up with.
 
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not sure about65 but aren’t they tapered axels that you need to use the drum pullers to remove properly?
 
olecarguy said:
Thanks Professor Fate. I'll really old. I remember MOPAR LH/RH stud/nut issues:thumbsup:. Nuts were off. The only way I could get the wheels off without bending them was to put jacks between wheel and frame, front on rear of the wheel, apply gentle pressure while banging the backside of the wheels with a softer faced 5 lb dead blow hammer. Then once off, you can see the witness marks where the wheel center was "pressed" onto the hub about 1/8" away from the drum face, and keeping the wheel from fully seating against the drum. This was due to the hub being larger than the wheel center. Yet, the drum/hubs are 5x4" pattern. The only car I know of using that pattern is the early A bodies.
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Are you 100% SURE they were pressed on and not rusted or corroded on? I ask because as far as I KNOW.......and that ain't far, LOL, there's only ONE center hole diameter for the small bolt pattern wheels......UNLESS maybe some of the weirdo very early 60s (1960-1962) stuff had something different.
 
They weren't rusted on. I wish it was that simple. When I first saw the car before buying it the car had no wheels on it. The owner agreed to make it a roller and put on the 13s. I came back and picked it up. It's clearly not seating where it should. The idea that these may have 10" drums from a 66 for 14" seems plausible. Whether or not the hubs are the same outer diameter is the question. I'n not sure if 14s and 13s for the Valiant have the same center hole diameter, I don't have both to measure. With all this the 13s fit rear axle centering stud. I guess it is possible that someone during its life put 66 drums on the front and maybe 14's all the way around, leaving the rear to be lug centric. I do know the front drums have been changed, both are right handed thread. Its not likely that I can get to it this weekend, but I'll pull a drum and measure hub and drum diameter. Maybe Charlie_S and I can then compare measurements here. Thanks everyone.
 
FISHYPETE said:
not sure about65 but aren’t they tapered axels that you need to use the drum pullers to remove properly?
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That is on the rear, but not "A" bodies. "A" bodies never used the tapered rear axles. 63 was the first year of the "A" body Darts. 60-62 "A" body Dodge was the Lancer.
 
olecarguy said:
They weren't rusted on. I wish it was that simple. When I first saw the car before buying it the car had no wheels on it. The owner agreed to make it a roller and put on the 13s. I came back and picked it up. It's clearly not seating where it should. The idea that these may have 10" drums from a 66 for 14" seems plausible. Whether or not the hubs are the same outer diameter is the question. I'n not sure if 14s and 13s for the Valiant have the same center hole diameter, I don't have both to measure. With all this the 13s fit rear axle centering stud. I guess it is possible that someone during its life put 66 drums on the front and maybe 14's all the way around, leaving the rear to be lug centric. I do know the front drums have been changed, both are right handed thread. Its not likely that I can get to it this weekend, but I'll pull a drum and measure hub and drum diameter. Maybe Charlie_S and I can then compare measurements here. Thanks everyone.
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Well, maybe we're both learnin somethin then. I was under the impression ALL small bolt pattern wheels had the same center hole diameter. How much of a press fit is it? Maybe you could enlarge the center hole a little.
 
Please show us a picture of the wheels you took off the car, they may not be Chrysler wheels. Some of the wheels from the japanese and european market have metric wheels that are close enough to the 4" pattern that they will fit over the studs but not the hub.
 
19DART66 said:
Please show us a picture of the wheels you took off the car, they may not be Chrysler wheels. Some of the wheels from the japanese and european market have metric wheels that are close enough to the 4" pattern that they will fit over the studs but not the hub.
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True.
I was also under the impession all SBP wheels had the same dia hub hole.
 
To add more info….a buddy of mine asked me for the 13s on the front. Trying to take them off is how all this started. So, in order to keep the car off the ground, knowing that later model metric Chrysler wheels are a close enough bolt pattern to use as shop wheels but not drivers ( offsets and lugs do not fully properly center), I attempted to put them on the front. While the pattern fit close enough for shop purposes, the hub diameter didn’t permit the wheel to go on far enough to catch any lugs on the front. So, I pulled and put the rear 13s on the front (which still don’t fully seat against the drum due to hub/center hole conflict) and was able to put the metric wheels on the rear with excess hole clearances (while the lug don’t fit exactly, they went on with enough room to catch lugs. I’ve included a pic of the front 13 which is a 13x4 or 4.5 and the rear metric 14 to support the discussion. I have no plans to use any of these wheels but why they don’t fit is what I’m trying to uncover.
image.jpg


image.jpg
 
Without cleaning off some rust, I measure the hub diameter at 2.310 on both the 9 inch and 10 inch hubs. 13 inch and 14 inch wheels measure 2 310-2.320 center hole. These are all small bolt pattern.
 
All the 4" bolt pattern wheels I've ever seen had the same center hole diameter, whether they had 9", 10" or disc brakes. I have seen people try to install the early 13" wheels onto a 10" brake car and have them wedge tight, but, it wasn't the center hole that did the wedging.....it was the inner part of the rim jammed onto the outer edge of the drum. The factory wheel you show looks to be the '65 and later wheel, though, so, that wouldn't be the issue here. Maybe someone tried some weird hub and drum swap from another vehicle? How about a photo of the drum with the wheel off?
 
olecarguy said:
They weren't rusted on. I wish it was that simple. When I first saw the car before buying it the car had no wheels on it. The owner agreed to make it a roller and put on the 13s. I came back and picked it up. It's clearly not seating where it should. The idea that these may have 10" drums from a 66 for 14" seems plausible. Whether or not the hubs are the same outer diameter is the question. I'n not sure if 14s and 13s for the Valiant have the same center hole diameter, I don't have both to measure. With all this the 13s fit rear axle centering stud. I guess it is possible that someone during its life put 66 drums on the front and maybe 14's all the way around, leaving the rear to be lug centric. I do know the front drums have been changed, both are right handed thread. Its not likely that I can get to it this weekend, but I'll pull a drum and measure hub and drum diameter. Maybe Charlie_S and I can then compare measurements here. Thanks everyone.
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Did you ever think that when you saw the car with no wheels that the dude just found some wheels and put them on? 5x4 is super common....
 
Charrlie_S said:
Not positive on the 65 year, but the 66 and up had either 9 inch or 10 in brakes available. Both are small bolt pattern, but the spindles, hubs, bearings and drums are different. As far as I recall the center hub is the same size, but I could be wrong. It might be slightly different. The 10 brakes got 14 inch wheels, and the 9 inch brakes got 13 inch wheels. I never checked the center hub size between them. I think I have parts of both sizes on hand. If I get a chance this weekend, I'll see what I come up with.
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65's had both 9 and 10 inch drums with 13 inch wheels. Small brakes for sixes, bigger brakes for the V8s.

My 65 Commando 273 4-speed non-S car with ralley suspension and a front sway bar originally had 13 inch wheels and 10 inch drum brakes all around. (Formula S cars of course had 14 inch wheels.)

My mother's 64 Barracuda had 9 inch brakes despite being a V8 car.

I never checked to see if her 13 inch wheels would fit on 10 inch brakes. But factory 14x5.5 steel wheels and also SBP ralley wheels would fit on either 9 or 10 inch brakes. I.e., the hub size was the same for 9 and 10 inch drums and SBP disc brakes.

My guess is that the wheel the OP tried to mount doesn't clear the hub because it is not a Mopar wheel.
 
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