Gen 3 Hemi list input needed

[standup303]

Good morning fellas,

I have been researching more and more on the Gen 3 Hemi swap and trying to get an accurate idea of what I’m up against. The harness/electronics side confuses me and quite a bit of questions are based on that. Would any of you who have done the swap mind chiming in on this list of parts/questions? Please let me know if im missing anything, I’m sure I am.

-2009 or later Eagle 5.7 ideally from truck so front AC compressor clears K frame.

-If I end up finding a 6.4 from a car would the AC compressor also be low and need a bracket to mount up high to clear the K? Any recommendations on a kit/bracket?

-accelerator pedal from donor car. Or get Holley Terminator X and aftermarket throttle body with cable setup.

-Any other parts aside from engine, transmission, pedal I would need from the donor? Do I need the factor computer if I’m going to be using a Terminator X or Hotwire?

-545RFE or 8HP70, would need to cut the floor and cross member, fab support bracket or get the Holley or UCT truck bracket, refab sheet metal.

-Does the Holley Terminator X Max plug and play with the 545RFE/8HP70 or would I need an additional harness? Or would Hotwire be a better option, looks like Hotwire sells the main engine harness with a transmission specific harness.

-custom driveshaft.

-need donor car shifter or something like the Kilduff 8 speed shifter, plug and play?

-Any opinions on the Terminator X vs. Hotwire harnesses in general?

-To lockout the VCT, MDS, SRT (truck motor), do the harnesses take care of this or would I need a phaser lockout for the VCT? Haven’t dug deep enough to know if I want to keep these functions or not.

-Will be installing an aftermarket in cam in any motor I get, I read this disables the VCT but not sure how or if 100% accurate?

-Have seen some guys used an angled oil filter adapter but say a remote oil filter kit and block off plate is another option. Is one better over the other?

-Holley Sniper EFI tank and a fuel pressure regulator/filter.

-Mancini mid sump oil pan kit.

-Holley power steering kit with new pump, will be using stock gearbox.

-TTI headers and engine mounts. Some TTI headers show I would need a (smaller?) Borgeson gearbox or go with the shorty headers? I plan on asking TTI about these, any experience would be helpful though.

 

[408 swinger]

You have a pretty good idea of the basics to get it done. Here's from my own experience:

The TTI headers fit well. I've used two inch primary tubes in an A Body. BUT, manual steering box only. I have used the 1 3/4 tubes as well. They look as though the Borgeson box would fit. I have tried appropriate exhaust manifolds with factory power box, NO BUENO. Again A-Body.

Any of the new pumps likely have too much pressure for stock boxes. Bouchillon makes a revamped pump with appropriate pressures for stock boxes.

The TTI engine mounts work great. They truly make it "bolt in". On A Bodies you'll have to use the filter relocation.

Most of the aftermarket cams for Eagle 5.7 and 6.4 stuff disable the VVT function. You would learn quickly what valve to piston clash is otherwise. You will need to mechanically lock the phaser out.

I don't have any experience with the Holley electronic systems for the gen 3. I have used the Hotwireauto harnesses and computers with great success. You could send in the donor computer to have it unlocked. They have great tech support.

The transmissions can get tricky. Well, not really tricky, just a lot to think about. For the 545, all you would need from donor is computer. A Nag trans, you need the shifter, trans module, ABS/wheel speed sensors, main pcm, and possibly body control module from the donor. It's a lot. The 8 speed has support from Sound German Engineering with a stand alone kit. Surgery required on tunnel for A-Body.

6.4 car A/C is mounted low. Only issue I see with the truck 5.7 is the upward facing throttle body. No clearance for intake tubing/filter.

 

[DionR]

-If I end up finding a 6.4 from a car would the AC compressor also be low and need a bracket to mount up high to clear the K? Any recommendations on a kit/bracket?

All car AC compressors are low mount. But a 6.4 can run the same TC as the 5.7 and mount the alternator up top if needed.

Holley has a whole FEAD kit that moves the AC/PS/Alt up to about the middle of the motor. I know of one guy on here that used that and didn't have clearance issues. But it is expensive.

-Any other parts aside from engine, transmission, pedal I would need from the donor? Do I need the factor computer if I’m going to be using a Terminator X or Hotwire?

Factory PCM is useless if you go with the Terminator PCM. But the Hotwire kit needs it.

If you run a Hotwire kit, might be worth grabbing the engine harness from the donor. Maybe Hotwire can build you a harness of it and save you a little money? Not sure on that, but might be worth looking into.

-Does the Holley Terminator X Max plug and play with the 545RFE/8HP70 or would I need an additional harness? Or would Hotwire be a better option, looks like Hotwire sells the main engine harness with a transmission specific harness.

Pretty sure the only automatic the Terminator X Max can run is the 42/46RE. And that one requires a separate add-on harness.

-need donor car shifter or something like the Kilduff 8 speed shifter, plug and play?

All depends on what trans. If you run the 8HP, pretty sure either is a plug and play. No idea on a 545RFE or NAG1.

FYI, Hotwire Auto used to have a tech post on what was required to run an NAG1. Might be worth looking that up if you wanted to run that trans. Should answer a bunch of questions.

-To lockout the VCT, MDS, SRT (truck motor), do the harnesses take care of this or would I need a phaser lockout for the VCT? Haven’t dug deep enough to know if I want to keep these functions or not.

-Will be installing an aftermarket in cam in any motor I get, I read this disables the VCT but not sure how or if 100% accurate?

VCT and whether it needs to be removed is all based on which cam. And the cam doesn't defeat it, you have to lock the cam phaser. There is a kit you buy with a block you put in the phaser so it can't vary the cam position. Tune is certainly affected so it will need to be changed as well. But an aftermarket cam will almost certainly make a tune required so it would kind of be find automatically at that point.

MDS is also mechanical and electronic, but not plugging in the solenoids would defeat it. No idea if it would cause issues with the way the car runs if MDS isn't turned off in the tune, though. Personally, I would remove all the MDS stuff (block-off plugs and different lifters) and remove it from the tune.

The SRV (not SRT) function is pretty cool, I want to save it on my build. But the solenoid hits the firewall if the motor is in the stock location and the best intake option is the 6.4 intake which can be more expensive and doesn't work with a high mount alt. Either way, it also affect the tune so it probably needs to be removed from the tune at least.

-Have seen some guys used an angled oil filter adapter but say a remote oil filter kit and block off plate is another option. Is one better over the other?

The out of the box TTI mounts require a block off plate. But at least one guy modified a QA1 k-frame and moved the mount back on the TTI bracket and cleared up a bunch of room.

G3 Hemi 69 Barracuda Fastback Father Son Project

It will look like it was meant to be there all along. :thumbsup: I like your plan, just be sure to account for the location of the filter and filter adapter relative to the uni-body frame, it may be tighter than you think. Personally, if needed, I would notch the frame to clear rather than...

www.forabodiesonly.com

As to which is better, kind of up to the person. I don't like the clutter, but it might make adding a true oil cooler easier. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Couple of thoughts.

I plan to run Holley's motor mounts as they move the motor forward and are supposed to allow for the low mount compressor on VCT motors. But relocating the motor means the trans crossmember and anything connected to the trans will need mods. I have a T56 Magnum to plug in at the same time so it doesn't mean much since I have to rebuild the mount and crossmember anyways. This also clears up room for the SRV solenoid on the back of the 6.4 intake or the cooler manifold on an HC supercharger.

I hate moving the motor forward 1.75", but I'm not building a 10/10th race car and the motor is still significantly rearward of the front suspension centerline when compared to a new Challenger. Everything is a compromise and in this case it is the compromise that saves me from running a $3K+ Holley FEAD kit.

 

[standup303]

You have a pretty good idea of the basics to get it done. Here's from my own experience:

The TTI headers fit well. I've used two inch primary tubes in an A Body. BUT, manual steering box only. I have used the 1 3/4 tubes as well. They look as though the Borgeson box would fit. I have tried appropriate exhaust manifolds with factory power box, NO BUENO. Again A-Body.

Any of the new pumps likely have too much pressure for stock boxes. Bouchillon makes a revamped pump with appropriate pressures for stock boxes.

The TTI engine mounts work great. They truly make it "bolt in". On A Bodies you'll have to use the filter relocation.

Most of the aftermarket cams for Eagle 5.7 and 6.4 stuff disable the VVT function. You would learn quickly what valve to piston clash is otherwise. You will need to mechanically lock the phaser out.

I don't have any experience with the Holley electronic systems for the gen 3. I have used the Hotwireauto harnesses and computers with great success. You could send in the donor computer to have it unlocked. They have great tech support.

The transmissions can get tricky. Well, not really tricky, just a lot to think about. For the 545, all you would need from donor is computer. A Nag trans, you need the shifter, trans module, ABS/wheel speed sensors, main pcm, and possibly body control module from the donor. It's a lot. The 8 speed has support from Sound German Engineering with a stand alone kit. Surgery required on tunnel for A-Body.

6.4 car A/C is mounted low. Only issue I see with the truck 5.7 is the upward facing throttle body. No clearance for intake tubing/filter.

Thanks for the reply. The 8 speed option is looking really sweet. The Nag needs quite a bit.

The Holley software looks awesome but I probably would just get a good tune and never touch it in fear of screwing something up.

 

[standup303]

All car AC compressors are low mount. But a 6.4 can run the same TC as the 5.7 and mount the alternator up top if needed.

Holley has a whole FEAD kit that moves the AC/PS/Alt up to about the middle of the motor. I know of one guy on here that used that and didn't have clearance issues. But it is expensive.



Factory PCM is useless if you go with the Terminator PCM. But the Hotwire kit needs it.

If you run a Hotwire kit, might be worth grabbing the engine harness from the donor. Maybe Hotwire can build you a harness of it and save you a little money? Not sure on that, but might be worth looking into.



Pretty sure the only automatic the Terminator X Max can run is the 42/46RE. And that one requires a separate add-on harness.



All depends on what trans. If you run the 8HP, pretty sure either is a plug and play. No idea on a 545RFE or NAG1.

FYI, Hotwire Auto used to have a tech post on what was required to run an NAG1. Might be worth looking that up if you wanted to run that trans. Should answer a bunch of questions.



VCT and whether it needs to be removed is all based on which cam. And the cam doesn't defeat it, you have to lock the cam phaser. There is a kit you buy with a block you put in the phaser so it can't vary the cam position. Tune is certainly affected so it will need to be changed as well. But an aftermarket cam will almost certainly make a tune required so it would kind of be find automatically at that point.

MDS is also mechanical and electronic, but not plugging in the solenoids would defeat it. No idea if it would cause issues with the way the car runs if MDS isn't turned off in the tune, though. Personally, I would remove all the MDS stuff (block-off plugs and different lifters) and remove it from the tune.

The SRV (not SRT) function is pretty cool, I want to save it on my build. But the solenoid hits the firewall if the motor is in the stock location and the best intake option is the 6.4 intake which can be more expensive and doesn't work with a high mount alt. Either way, it also affect the tune so it probably needs to be removed from the tune at least.



The out of the box TTI mounts require a block off plate. But at least one guy modified a QA1 k-frame and moved the mount back on the TTI bracket and cleared up a bunch of room.

http://[URL]https://www.forabodieso...her-son-project.364889/page-6#post-1971925482

[/URL]

As to which is better, kind of up to the person. I don't like the clutter, but it might make adding a true oil cooler easier. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Couple of thoughts.

I plan to run Holley's motor mounts as they move the motor forward and are supposed to allow for the low mount compressor on VCT motors. But relocating the motor means the trans crossmember and anything connected to the trans will need mods. I have a T56 Magnum to plug in at the same time so it doesn't mean much since I have to rebuild the mount and crossmember anyways. This also clears up room for the SRV solenoid on the back of the 6.4 intake or the cooler manifold on an HC supercharger.

I hate moving the motor forward 1.75", but I'm not building a 10/10th race car and the motor is still significantly rearward of the front suspension centerline when compared to a new Challenger. Everything is a compromise and in this case it is the compromise that saves me from running a $3K+ Holley FEAD kit.

Did not know that about the Holley mounts, I will have to check those out.

MDS would be a cool option to have if I could flip hit a button say on longer trips, but agreed, will probably just come out.

 

[DionR]

Did not know that about the Holley mounts, I will have to check those out.

MDS would be a cool option to have if I could flip hit a button say on longer trips, but agreed, will probably just come out.

Something I forgot to add about the Holley mounts is they also allow for a 90 degree oil filter adapter to be use. It's not cheap, but not sure it is more than the remote setup either.

If you run an automatic, you can keep the MDS. I think the Terminator X can run it, and the OEM computer certainly can. Only trick is turning it off. On the late model cars, sport mode disables it (I think), but no idea how you could turn on sport mode for the OEM computer and I don't know if the Terminator X can toggle it off and on with a button or something. I'm a stick guy and have a T56 so I've never looked beyond what to swap out to remove it.

On the OEM computer, at least for the 2015+ Challengers, the Sport button is in a separate module that ties into the CANbus network. It might be as simple as setting up an Arduino to put the right message on the network with the push of a button, but not certain. And if it is on different CANbus network than the PCM lives one, it would get more complicated.

 

[Dantra]

Thanks for the reply. The 8 speed option is looking really sweet. The Nag needs quite a bit.

The Holley software looks awesome but I probably would just get a good tune and never touch it in fear of screwing something up.

I'm using the SGA 8HP70 controller in my a100. So simple! You'll need a 2015 later shifter.. doesn't matter if it's V6, 5.7,6.7 etc. You can use the dial shifter from a truck as well but you'll need to let SGA know when you order. It's like 60 bucks for them to change the wiring to a dial connector. But, all in, it's 1000 bucks plus the cost of the shifter to be able to run it.

Did not know that about the Holley mounts, I will have to check those out.

MDS would be a cool option to have if I could flip hit a button say on longer trips, but agreed, will probably just come out.

Keep in mind that moving forward doesn't work in every car.. There's no way I could move forward 1.5 inches with TTIs and PS. From what I've seen and expect, I might be able to squeeze a 1/2" or less before the headers are into the PS box

Something I forgot to add about the Holley mounts is they also allow for a 90 degree oil filter adapter to be use. It's not cheap, but not sure it is more than the remote setup either.

If you run an automatic, you can keep the MDS. I think the Terminator X can run it, and the OEM computer certainly can. Only trick is turning it off. On the late model cars, sport mode disables it (I think), but no idea how you could turn on sport mode for the OEM computer and I don't know if the Terminator X can toggle it off and on with a button or something. I'm a stick guy and have a T56 so I've never looked beyond what to swap out to remove it.

On the OEM computer, at least for the 2015+ Challengers, the Sport button is in a separate module that ties into the CANbus network. It might be as simple as setting up an Arduino to put the right message on the network with the push of a button, but not certain. And if it is on different CANbus network than the PCM lives one, it would get more complicated.

Sport and track mode activations are made in the Sound German Controller (PCS Module) Pretty simple.. depending on which mode you select, those connections can go to ground or 12v + (either is recognized) through a 3 position toggle. PCS talks to the can

 

[standup303]

Awesome info. I’ll have to look up what kinda of mileage guys are getting with the MDS activated. I love how many options and backing are available to make these engines work in the old cars now.

 

[DionR]

Keep in mind that moving forward doesn't work in every car.. There's no way I could move forward 1.5 inches with TTIs and PS. From what I've seen and expect, I might be able to squeeze a 1/2" or less before the headers are into the PS box

Really good point. I wonder if the TTI headers would work with a manual box with the Holley mounts. A electric PS conversion would make it workable.

Holley used to sell a shorty header that matched up, but now all they sell is the cast manifolds (thanks EPA). Luckily I got a set of the headers before they pulled them off the market.

Sport and track mode activations are made in the Sound German Controller (PCS Module) Pretty simple.. depending on which mode you select, those connections can go to ground or 12v + (either is recognized) through a 3 position toggle. PCS talks to the can

Interesting. Thanks!

This would be with the OEM PCM only though, correct? Why 3 positions, isn't it just on or off?

 

[Dantra]

Awesome info. I’ll have to look up what kinda of mileage guys are getting with the MDS activated. I love how many options and backing are available to make these engines work in the old cars now.

If you are keeping MDS (or not) and it's an Eagle, upgrade your oil pump to a hellcat. Rock Auto has Genuine Mopar for something like $165

 

[Dantra]

Really good point. I wonder if the TTI headers would work with a manual box with the Holley mounts. A electric PS conversion would make it workable.

Holley used to sell a shorty header that matched up, but now all they sell is the cast manifolds (thanks EPA). Luckily I got a set of the headers before they pulled them off the market.



Interesting. Thanks!

This would be with the OEM PCM only though, correct? Why 3 positions, isn't it just on or off?

I don't know that EPA had anything to do with Holley not producing Gen 3 A body headers.. I mean they still make alot of headers that fall into the same category. Hopefully it's not actually a fitment issue with moving things forward.. or it could just be supply and demand? I don't believe they make the 1.5 forward mounts anymore and they don't make anything A unless it's a spool mount.. Unless I missed something. I did look

The Sound German Harness has optional leads that you can add into the connector for track and sport mode. They are not intended to be left on all the time, so a switch is required. To have both options, you need 3 positions.. ON(sport) OFF(stock) ON (track). I don't know of any oem or aftermarket ECU options that have any kind of sport function or option.

 

[DionR]

I don't know that EPA had anything to do with Holley not producing Gen 3 A body headers.. I mean they still make alot of headers that fall into the same category. Hopefully it's not actually a fitment issue with moving things forward.. or it could just be supply and demand?

Here's a guy that talked to Holley R&D and was told they were all pulled due to pressure from the EPA.

Holley tubular swap headers MIA on website. Reason?

I've notice for some time that the tubular headers Holley has offered in the past for Hemi swaps seem to be missing from their website. I haven't looked hard mind you, but I did go looking for some for a Dakota swap (BH2374) just out of curiosity and only found their cast iron manifolds...

www.forabodiesonly.com

I don't believe they make the 1.5 forward mounts anymore and they don't make anything A unless it's a spool mount.. Unless I missed something.

They are still selling the mounts. Here are the mounts I bought, and they move the motor forward 1.75" inches to make room for the SRV solenoid, oil filter adapter and AC compressor on VCT motors.

Hooker BlackHeart BHS571 Hooker Blackheart Engine Mount Brackets

Hooker Blackheart engine swap mounts allow easy installation of the Gen III Hemi engine in your 1973-1976 Mopar A-Body. These engine-Mount assemblies are part of an engineered solution that works together with the transmission crossmember and headers to optimize the engine placement & component...

www.holley.com

And you are correct that it's spool mount or nothing.

The Sound German Harness has optional leads that you can add into the connector for track and sport mode. They are not intended to be left on all the time, so a switch is required. To have both options, you need 3 positions.. ON(sport) OFF(stock) ON (track). I don't know of any oem or aftermarket ECU options that have any kind of sport function or option.

Ah, track mode. My 2015 Challenger R/T only had Sport, so missed that was even an option. Thanks!

 

[Dantra]

Here's a guy that talked to Holley R&D and was told they were all pulled due to pressure from the EPA.

http://[URL]https://www.forabodieso...mia-on-website-reason.542894/#post-1974339985

[/URL]



They are still selling the mounts. Here are the mounts I bought, and they move the motor forward 1.75" inches to make room for the SRV solenoid, oil filter adapter and AC compressor on VCT motors.

http://[URL]https://www.holley.com/...s_and_crossmembers/engine_mounts/parts/BHS571

[/URL]

And you are correct that it's spool mount or nothing.



Ah, track mode. My 2015 Challenger R/T only had Sport, so missed that was even an option. Thanks!

Something else to consider when moving forward.. The mid sump pan is gonna get into a stock K. There's ways around it but it's not plug and play

 

[DionR]

Something else to consider when moving forward.. The mid sump pan is gonna get into a stock K. There's ways around it but it's not plug and play

The Holley pan is designed for the motor to be forward. No idea on the Milodon pan though.

I mocked mine up with the Holley pan before I had my k-frame welded and gusseted and was going to add a 1/4" or so notch. I just had the motor sitting on the k-frame with the motor mounts and the angle of the motor could have been off, but it wasn't actually touching the k-frame. Close enough that I wanted a little more clearance but not enough that it wouldn't have bolted in.

 

[DionR]

Sounds like the 8HP and the SGE kit are the bomb. Retains Sport mode to disable MDS at the flick of a switch but still retains it for cruising. Plus the remapped pedal maps that come with Sport or Track mode and the shift schedules for the trans.

Now someone just needs to create some spindles that use the Challenger wheel bearing hubs so the wheel speed sensors and ABS can be retained. ABS, TC, Stability, line lock, all kinds of possibilities.

Certainly more complex than just adding the hubs, but in my mind that's the big step that is missing. And there is the added complexity of what is actually the bolt circle of the late model cars.

I've actually got a working idea for laser cut plates to build a spindle, but the bolt pattern has me wigged out. I would really like to feed the PCM wheel speed info so it can maintain the CC functions and the OEM ABS model seems like the easier path, but it's far from easy. All kinds of questions and unknowns.

 

[racerjoe]

IMO, if the wiring scares you, I'd recommend you use the factory harness and ECU. Sublime Technologies can make a factory harness plug and play.

I've read too many stories of people blaming Holley only to later find out the source of their problems was their poor wiring. Not to mention, its easy to get discouraged if you don't completely understand how things work and problems arise. The swap is mechanically a pain in the a$$ alone, don't make it harder on yourself.

 

[Dantra]

The Holley pan is designed for the motor to be forward. No idea on the Milodon pan though.

I mocked mine up with the Holley pan before I had my k-frame welded and gusseted and was going to add a 1/4" or so notch. I just had the motor sitting on the k-frame with the motor mounts and the angle of the motor could have been off, but it wasn't actually touching the k-frame. Close enough that I wanted a little more clearance but not enough that it wouldn't have bolted in.

Cool.. I have the Holley pan and just had it sitting in there, much the same as you did. I slid everything forward as far as I could and it looked tight. But I did have some column interference, casting me off at a slight angle. So I suppose with everything square, it'll probably go more. My biggest concern as for sliding forward any farther will be the headers. That's one of the reasons I opted for the shorties.. hoping they are a little more forgiving. We'll know this weekend!

IMO, if the wiring scares you, I'd recommend you use the factory harness and ECU. Sublime Technologies can make a factory harness plug and play.

I've read too many stories of people blaming Holley only to later find out the source of their problems was their poor wiring. Not to mention, its easy to get discouraged if you don't completely understand how things work and problems arise. The swap is mechanically a pain in the a$$ alone, don't make it harder on yourself.

This I agree with totally. I know everybody loves the Holley stuff but if you don't really need all of that.. skip it. I don't mind wiring but why add more pain. On my current swap, I ended up with the stock harness and ecu, so I'll be going through Sublime and saving a few bucks on the Quick Run and a flash and save a few bucks. My last swap, I used a Mopar Crate Harness and it was great except I had to reroute the starter wiring to the drivers side and it sure would be nice if you had just a little more length for the ecu.

 

[DionR]

Headers are absolutely an issue with the Holley mounts. If you are ok with cast manifolds, they can still work. But if headers are a must, no idea what would fit.

 

[racerjoe]

Headers are absolutely an issue with the Holley mounts. If you are ok with cast manifolds, they can still work. But if headers are a must, no idea what would fit.

TTI needs some competition! I don't understand why Holley discontinued their headers for the G3, but yet they still sell LS headers.

 

[Dantra]

I have to think it's the lack of demand.. All you ever hear is "LS Swap it" and fighting for a spot in what is already a pretty small pond, may just not be worth it to them.

I don't know that I've ever actually seen the Hooley headers and mounts installed in a pre 73 A body.. but then again, I haven't really looked. Google, don't fail me now!

 

[DionR]

TTI needs some competition! I don't understand why Holley discontinued their headers for the G3, but yet they still sell LS headers.

Best guess is the "application". As referenced in the below post, Holley changed the label for the D100 headers to '72-74, while they will fit up to '89 or something and last I checked they are still available. Not sure why they couldn't do the same with the A-Body headers and change them to '73-74 or something. And it sure seemed like I saw a fair number of LS swap headers on the clearance page for awhile, so I wouldn't be surprised if more than we think went away.

Holley tubular swap headers MIA on website. Reason?

I've notice for some time that the tubular headers Holley has offered in the past for Hemi swaps seem to be missing from their website. I haven't looked hard mind you, but I did go looking for some for a Dakota swap (BH2374) just out of curiosity and only found their cast iron manifolds...

www.forabodiesonly.com

The EPA backed off as I understand it, so maybe they can bring them back? I might even be ok if Holley just sold TTI the designs. I don't like the TTI prices (got my swap headers for $485), but at least they would be available and an option.

Not really sure what direction I would go if I had to start over or didn't have my swap parts already. I really like the fact that the Holley mounts allow room for things without cutting or fabricating, but have to weight that against being able to buy headers. I can see a ton of work required to fit a low mount AC compressor, and I much prefer that setup to the Holley FEAD kit or a high mount one. The SRV sure gives a bump to the top end but is it worth cutting the firewall on a real 360 4M car? The oil filter is a whatever thing, I don't see the solutions as extreme. Not sure, but I could see running manifolds and giving up whatever power they cost. The other options are a bunch or work or a $5K HDK kit.

 

[DionR]

I have to think it's the lack of demand..

Did you read the link I posted? Not poking at you, just curious.

While I agree demand will reduce the "pain threshold" for Holley, that wasn't the reason give. At least for the Dakota swap headers, but I can't see those being done any more than the A-Body.

From the link...

Just an FYI but no they did not stop selling them due to "collecting dust". I had mine on order for my hemi Dakota swap for 8 months before receiving an email telling me they had to refund my money. After 3 hours on the phone griping I was transferred to the head of R&D and was told that the EPA will no longer allow them to sell them. If you take a minute and look up the RPM act you will understand. He told me they had the headers, holley had been in litigation with the EPA for months (reason for the backorders) When the 2022 congressional year came to a close and the RPM act had not past holley started refunding money. They even had to change the website which is why the D100 now say 72-74 because after 74 the EPA's clean air act makes modification of any kind illegal. The swap headers fit all the way to 93 but they cant say that now. Even for vehicles used off road or in race settings. The law has not changed a word since 1974 but the new governments interpretation of it has. Look up the RPM act.

I don't know that I've ever actually seen the Hooley headers and mounts installed in a pre 73 A body.. but then again, I haven't really looked. Google, don't fail me now!

I know there are pictures on the FB group, let me see if I can grab some

 

[DionR]

Here's a link to the headers:

https://www.holley.com/products/discontinued_product/parts/BH23104

And a link to the instructions. It's in the link above, but just so someone doesn't have to look for it.

https://documents.holley.com/199r12216.pdf

Derek Mckenna posted some pictures on the G3 hemi swapped A body mopars group (I know you are on there @Dantra), not sure the edict for posting his pictures here so I'm not going to.

Not sure they were on the market for even a full year before they were pulled. I can't find anything that says they were on my radar in 2021, so I wouldn't be surprised they were released at SEMA the end of 2021. I also wouldn't be surprised if less than 100 were ever sold. I ordered mine in June 2022 but didn't get them until September, based on 1995dak's post I just snuck under the wire.

Something to add to that, I had been watching the headers on Holley's website and one morning in June of 2022, I checked something and randomly saw the price had gone up $200 and they were out of stock. So I started frantically searching for anyone that had them in stock and found a guy on ebay with a set in stock (per his listing) at the original price. So I bought them right away. Could be that was when the pressure from the EPA came in and the litigation started and that's why they went out of stock and the price increased, don't know.

For all I know, he found the set he said he had in stock when I paid for them and then could find, rather than getting another shipment from Holley.

 

[Dantra]

Here's a link to the headers:

http://[URL]https://www.holley.com/products/discontinued_product/parts/BH23104

[/URL]

And a link to the instructions. It's in the link above, but just so someone doesn't have to look for it.

http://[URL]https://documents.holley.com/199r12216.pdf

[/URL]

Derek Mckenna posted some pictures on the G3 hemi swapped A body mopars group (I know you are on there @Dantra), not sure the edict for posting his pictures here so I'm not going to.

Not sure they were on the market for even a full year before they were pulled. I can't find anything that says they were on my radar in 2021, so I wouldn't be surprised they were released at SEMA the end of 2021. I also wouldn't be surprised if less than 100 were ever sold. I ordered mine in June 2022 but didn't get them until September, based on 1995dak's post I just snuck under the wire.

Something to add to that, I had been watching the headers on Holley's website and one morning in June of 2022, I checked something and randomly saw the price had gone up $200 and they were out of stock. So I started frantically searching for anyone that had them in stock and found a guy on ebay with a set in stock (per his listing) at the original price. So I bought them right away. Could be that was when the pressure from the EPA came in and the litigation started and that's why they went out of stock and the price increased, don't know.

For all I know, he found the set he said he had in stock when I paid for them and then could find, rather than getting another shipment from Holley.

Appreciate the info. I'm still not sure what to think about Holley discontinuing.. Is it better for them to say, yea we just don't want to or have an excuse not to. Too many variables.. EPA isn't hammering TTI, Holley still produces lotsa stuff that falls into the same Gas Act category. Plus they could alter the years for A Body, just the same as they did for the D100s.. which they also do for the camaro LS swap headers. They cut off at 74 but we all know that Gen runs up into the early 80s. But, the link that you provided was Dakota specific.. So who's to say that the same reasoning applied to the A body stuff. IDK, it doesn't really matter to me. Just a good conversation I suppose. But also, think about Holley not making biscuit mount A body stuff. I'm pretty sure that they used to. Again, I could be wrong

 

[DionR]

Appreciate the info. I'm still not sure what to think about Holley discontinuing.. Is it better for them to say, yea we just don't want to or have an excuse not to. Too many variables.. EPA isn't hammering TTI, Holley still produces lotsa stuff that falls into the same Gas Act category. Plus they could alter the years for A Body, just the same as they did for the D100s.. which they also do for the camaro LS swap headers. They cut off at 74 but we all know that Gen runs up into the early 80s. But, the link that you provided was Dakota specific.. So who's to say that the same reasoning applied to the A body stuff.

All very true. Way too many variables, and still just one guys comments. At least to me it adds up though when looking at the other headers that changed their application or were discontinued.

I've wondered about TTI as well. Best guess; the EPA targeted the big company because their pockets are deeper and it would send a bigger message. The idea being that the little guys would fall into line on their own without the EPA having to chase them. But just a guess.

The other thing to factor in is the manifolds. How much did their introduction influence dropping other options when those options came with the pain factor due to the EPA? Doesn't appear that the manifolds have a model or year associated with them, plus their notes point out how they can be used in applications that require a catalytic converter.

Might just have been the perfect storm that got the headers cancelled.

IDK, it doesn't really matter to me. Just a good conversation I suppose. But also, think about Holley not making biscuit mount A body stuff. I'm pretty sure that they used to. Again, I could be wrong

Completely agree. Just a conversation.

And as far as I know, they never made A-Body mounts for the biscuit k-frame. Spool mounts only from the beginning. They did (and still do) make biscuit mounts for the E and B-Body cars, maybe that's what you are thinking of.