Get my car to launch better...

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At what RPM are you letting the clutch out when doing your burnout?

I usually put it in 3rd and drop the clutch at about 3500-4000 and roll into the throttle. Then move my left foot over to the brake right away. The engine never has a chance to bog down if you are located in the burnout box properly.

Looks like the 60' is headed in the right direction.
 
I'll say something that hasnt been said...your tires are part of the problem with your car being a stickshift...
the design of the cords inside of a radial tire make them a softer design and less resistant to the "hit" that a stick shift gives on launch at a drag strip...a bias ply on the other hand has the cords wrapped differently, making them stiffer but also creating a different footprint that helps to better control the launch of a stickshift car...the theory has been tested, tried and true- guys who run radials in stick cars usually pick up atleast a tenth or more (some as much as 3 tenths) when switching over to a bias ply tire, while also having improved launch characteristics (car launches straighter, etc.)..

not too mention that radials on the stick car dont provide the give you need to help save your drivetrain, and in my opinion anything you can do to help "soften" the load on the drivetrain in a stick car is something you should do...in my opinion you should be looking at running a tire like the ET street, MandH DOT racemasters, MT sportsman pros (hook like crap but are nice and stiff)...and dont let people fool you that bias ply are dangerous or inferior- they were used forever without problems, and from the sounds of it you dont seem to be corner carving this thing anyways

thats my two cents, take it or leave it....some will agree, others will disagree, but the proof is in the facts...if you dont believe me talk to any stickshift drag racer, and i mean a real racer, and they will tell you the same thing

good luck!
 
mshred said:
I'll say something that hasnt been said...your tires are part of the problem with your car being a stickshift...
the design of the cords inside of a radial tire make them a softer design and less resistant to the "hit" that a stick shift gives on launch at a drag strip...a bias ply on the other hand has the cords wrapped differently, making them stiffer but also creating a different footprint that helps to better control the launch of a stickshift car...the theory has been tested, tried and true- guys who run radials in stick cars usually pick up atleast a tenth or more (some as much as 3 tenths) when switching over to a bias ply tire, while also having improved launch characteristics (car launches straighter, etc.)..

not too mention that radials on the stick car dont provide the give you need to help save your drivetrain, and in my opinion anything you can do to help "soften" the load on the drivetrain in a stick car is something you should do...in my opinion you should be looking at running a tire like the ET street, MandH DOT racemasters, MT sportsman pros (hook like crap but are nice and stiff)...and dont let people fool you that bias ply are dangerous or inferior- they were used forever without problems, and from the sounds of it you dont seem to be corner carving this thing anyways

thats my two cents, take it or leave it....some will agree, others will disagree, but the proof is in the facts...if you dont believe me talk to any stickshift drag racer, and i mean a real racer, and they will tell you the same thing

good luck!
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I don't think its a DR problem, i ran DRs on my 6sp. camaro & left on the bottle & hooked like crazy, you just need to tune alittle different with stick cars, he's not hitting hard at all with 2.0 60fts. for DRs not to handle, off the bottle i went 2.0s consistantly leaving at 5000, it is very possible he just isn't getting the tires hot enough, or it could be cold weather, bad track prep, there is alot of other things that could be the problem, it also sounds like from his post he only made "1" run, it is true you can run pick up with Bias tires on stick cars, but thats useally on cars leaving alot harder then his, i think once thinks fall in place & he makes more passes, he should hook great with DRs.
 
I made multiple passes, but I think it's something static weight transfer (battery in trunk), properly heated tires (install line lock and get good burnout), and less driver error will help with. All I've done to this point is clamp the springs and put longer shocks in. If I start pulling 1.8 60' times, that's shaving about .4 off where I started. It sure is easy to get a car into the 14s, and then the 13s, but I'm realizing you gotta put in some work to have a street car that runs in the 12s.
 
juvat said:
Thanks for the tip on the clamps. I'll go to homedepot - faster, cheaper and it will be made in the USA; maybe not the steel, but the fabricator (me) is American. Is there any advantage to unclamping the rear section of the springs?

For anyone else wondering about the shocks, if you go to Autozone and ask for a shock for a 1969 Dodge D100, you can get Gabriel part number 82054, and those are 24.5" extended. On Monroe's mounting reference sheet it says the Darts and D100s have the same mounting hole size and style. On the website it says they are only $16.99 each. I'll probably try those and get some front drag shocks.
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There is an advantage to unclamping the rear section of the springs but that`s for DRAG RACING ONLY and even then you should keep at least one clamp on for safety. I wouldn`t suggest it on a street/strip car.

Good info on the shocks

It sounds like you`ve made an admirable improvement with a minimum amount of investment. Unfortunately as you go faster the price of a few tenths gets more and more expensive.
 
JoeDust451 said:
I don't think its a DR problem, i ran DRs on my 6sp. camaro & left on the bottle & hooked like crazy, you just need to tune alittle different with stick cars, he's not hitting hard at all with 2.0 60fts. for DRs not to handle, off the bottle i went 2.0s consistantly leaving at 5000, it is very possible he just isn't getting the tires hot enough, or it could be cold weather, bad track prep, there is alot of other things that could be the problem, it also sounds like from his post he only made "1" run, it is true you can run pick up with Bias tires on stick cars, but thats useally on cars leaving alot harder then his, i think once thinks fall in place & he makes more passes, he should hook great with DRs.
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hey joe, dont get me wrong it can be done...but even a low 13 second car, if launching at a decent rpm, will give quite a beating when you dump the clutch...it has been proven time and time again that Bias plies have much better recovery on a stick car than DR's, and thats on cars from 8 seconds all the way to 14...i know a guy who changed from the MT et street radials to an et street with no other changes and went from 13.4 to 12.9...and thats just one guy i know personally, and have seen many others tout the same horn...even if his 60's are high and its only a low 13 second car, id do anything i could thats simple to squeeze every last bit of it, and imo tires a no brainer for that
 
Juvat---- What shock did you end up putting on?

I have 00' ram shocks on my dart. They perform the same on the strip as the MP and the CE adjustable , on MY car.

I think you should try different launch techniques , see what you can get away with rpm wise , etc......Et Street tires WILL hook. I used to run those.

Try clamping the leaf springs.

I tried removing all the rear clamps on mine last year--the car felt WAY loose and it did NOT improve anything.
 
496 - I put on cheapo monroe gas-matic shocks from Advance (asked for shocks for a 69 D100) and they were 23.5" fully extended. Now my shocks aren't preventing full suspension extension. I'm only out $34 if I get a better set later.
 
Can you clean those up and return them? or box them back up and Ebay them--


ok, did you try this--

jack up that car on the frame rails-- un bolt the bottom of the shock , see how far it extends?

I assume you did that ...

Try a set of 00' Ram shocks like i have ( you will have to drill out the upper bushing) . Or get a set of MP , A body drag shocks--whichever is cheaper if you are watching your $ ,, you can also find good used MP drag shocks on Ebay .

as far as $$ IM A BROKE / BUDGET RACER -- so I always do this as cheap as I can within reason! :yawinkle:

Theres a member around (572) that ran these ram shocks + SS springs and he was going 9.0x in the 1/4 so it DOES work . :toothy8:
 
mshred said:
hey joe, dont get me wrong it can be done...but even a low 13 second car, if launching at a decent rpm, will give quite a beating when you dump the clutch...it has been proven time and time again that Bias plies have much better recovery on a stick car than DR's, and thats on cars from 8 seconds all the way to 14...i know a guy who changed from the MT et street radials to an et street with no other changes and went from 13.4 to 12.9...and thats just one guy i know personally, and have seen many others tout the same horn...even if his 60's are high and its only a low 13 second car, id do anything i could thats simple to squeeze every last bit of it, and imo tires a no brainer for that
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I see what your saying, i was told the same thing, but i still think he can save $$$ by not buying a set of tires, he can make those DRs work for now, on the bottle for me, i pulled a 1.80 leaving at 2500, i never raised the bar to see if it had more, i'm sure it did, ran a 12.01 @ 115 on that pass, i'm also sure the ETs or QTPs would work better, but let him wear those DRs out 1st. lol, now i see he installed "gas" shocks on it :?, i never had good luck with gas shocks on a car i was trying to get traction with.
 
JoeDust451 said:
496, are those 00 ram shocks "gas", or just HD?
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i dont remember - whatever a 00' ram shock is.......i just bought the cheapest O'Reilly had . ;)

They WORK on my car i can tell you that. I run those and super stock A body springs . 1.44 60' time so far

They may or may not work for you.

and i agree on drag radials- They hook ! (ask the mustang guys that are running insane times )

those tires want more air to work so try a higher pressure. Ive heard 18-25 psi . Dont take my word on that--ive always ran Hoosier QTP , MT ET streets , or slicks .
 
496dart said:
i dont remember - whatever a 00' ram shock is.......i just bought the cheapest O'Reilly had . ;)

They WORK on my car i can tell you that. I run those and super stock A body springs . 1.44 60' time so far

They may or may not work for you.

and i agree on drag radials- They hook ! (ask the mustang guys that are running insane times )

those tires want more air to work so try a higher pressure. Ive heard 18-25 psi . Dont take my word on that--ive always ran Hoosier QTP , MT ET streets , or slicks .
Click to expand...

Right now (came on the car) are some very old & stiff air shocks, so i need something.
 
JoeDust451 said:
I see what your saying, i was told the same thing, but i still think he can save $$$ by not buying a set of tires, he can make those DRs work for now, on the bottle for me, i pulled a 1.80 leaving at 2500, i never raised the bar to see if it had more, i'm sure it did, ran a 12.01 @ 115 on that pass, i'm also sure the ETs or QTPs would work better, but let him wear those DRs out 1st. lol, now i see he installed "gas" shocks on it :?, i never had good luck with gas shocks on a car i was trying to get traction with.
Click to expand...

true, those DR's wear out quick (mind you the et streets arent any better)...but its something to try once they do wear out...good luck man!
 
Don't I remember from the 70's and 80's that shock to use was from a "C" body? (Because it is longer?)
BTW, remember that just because your axle hangs "X" number of inches w/o the shocks attached doesn't make that the right length for the shock. Under torque, the springs could move even further.

I'm a little confused on the pinion angle thing. The 1980 Direct Connection book says to set the rear joint angle at 5-7*, nose down, using a stock spring. (The difference between the driveshaft centerline and the pinion centerline.) I believe the idea is to have as close to no angle as possible under torque, freeing things up. S/S springs require less angle, as they are stiffer, ladder bars even less, etc.
They also say to keep the front angle at less than 2.5*, on all suspension types. (Crankshaft C/L and D-shaft C/L, I have to assume, not specified in the book.)
I've had to set the rear angle in the past. I've never had to set the front, and don't remember ever checking it.
Is all of this the same as what you guys are talking about?

Juvat, what you're doing is the right way to make a car e.t. It makes no difference that it may be inexpensive.
Getting the most from the least is what make NHRA's Stock Eliminator cars so quick. Well, that's one of the things, anyway. ;-)

Oh, you might want to try some solid bushings in the front leaf spring eye. Depends on what "streetable" means to you. (They'll be harsher and noiser.)
 
Pinion angle has guidelines and that's about it. We had a SS spring car that need 10* down to work.

If it's a dedicated drag car, turn it down to where it works best. If a dual purpose street strip car, you need to balance the two. Too much down, and the u-joint takes a real beating under normal street driving. It may cause some pretty serious vibrations as well. That's part of the reasons I like cal track style set ups. They don't require excessive pinion angles.
 
I went & got the shocks for a 00 ram, i'm taking them back because you need to take those metal sleeves out, & they don't come out easy, i ordered a pair for a 73 1/2 ton dodge truck, maybe they will not have the sleeves, if not, i'll order for a C body, from what i remember after thinking about it, these will work, there longer & bolt right in on the original shock mounts.
 
Lots of good info here. I'm taking in every word, idea and suggestion. Keep the info coming.
 
crackedback said:
Pinion angle has guidelines and that's about it. We had a SS spring car that need 10* down to work.

If it's a dedicated drag car, turn it down to where it works best. If a dual purpose street strip car, you need to balance the two. Too much down, and the u-joint takes a real beating under normal street driving. It may cause some pretty serious vibrations as well. That's part of the reasons I like cal track style set ups. They don't require excessive pinion angles.
Click to expand...

I'm prized, that it took 3 pages to say the word Cal Tracks?

are they not popular on a A body?

I'm Not speaking from experiencing, as mine are SS spring(purchased long before there was such a thing as Cal tracks)

If i had to do it over again, i would probably go that route..............I realize, there not the economical solution.

In my opinon, there better then SS Spring..........there kinda like a inexpensive 4link!

sound like all you realty need right now is a better burn out! practice Practice Practice.:-D
 
Well, I threw some money at the problem. Comp Engineering adjustable drag shocks front and rear (I'll return the gas ones), a line lock and battery relocation kit. I got the battery relocator helper kit from MAD electric too. I plan on eventually putting in the toyota 4 runner alternator and finally having a strong electrical system, so I want to do the battery relocation right the first time. I think static and dynamic weight transfer and a good burnout should help out quite a bit. If anybody has anything bad to say about the shocks, speak now or forever hold your peace!

It's gonna be a couple of weeks until I can report back on 60' times as I have a dirtbike trip this weekend, but I'll keep updating this thread with my successes or failures.

Cuda - I mentioned caltracs on my first post, and I also thought there'd be more guys swearing by them.
 
I ran Caltracs on my duster, unless you have the "right" springs, they aren't any better then SS springs IMO.
 
Super Stock springs.
Pinion Snubber.
Spring Clamps.
Long shocks.
M/T Slicks.
Done !
 
I lowered my 60' on my Duster from 2.4 to 1.81 by doing this stuff in order:

Went from skinny rock hard street tires to M/T ET streets 275/60/15's lowered sixty foot to 2.2 (still bad)

Chucked the MP crap converter and installed PTC 9.5" 3,500 stall lowered sixty foot to 1.9 (getting better) btw, adding the PTC converter was the best improvement I've ever done for the car.

Pulled the ESPO HD springs (stuck them on my Dart so no waste) and installed SS springs that I got for $50. Sixty foot didn't change BECAUSE the shocks weren't long enough.

Added '80 something Dodge D250 truck shocks and got my best 1.81 sixty foot, and best ET 12.91 @103.7.

Great post guys, I love stuff like this.
 
There's some great info here. I'll add my take on pinion angle setup. Pinion angle is the difference between the centerline of the transmission output shaft and the centerline of the pinion gear UNDER LOAD. Meaning when you're accelerating they should be parallel. This does not mean pointed at one another. It means parallel. My method of determining where I'm starting from is have the car on it's tires but off the ground, with some weight on the driver's seat (for me thats 225lbs), plus a 1/2 a load of fuel. U use a magnetic protractor on the macined flat of the front slip yoke and recor the angle. Then do the same with the flat of the pinion yoke. The difference is the starting point. Under load, the pinion rides up the ring gear, pushing the snubber up on the floor. It depends on your car but my bsaic specs are for street: point the pinion down about 2-3°. For road race (stiff suspensions, less body movement) down 1° or less. For drag racing (lots of body movement, supple suspension)down 3-4°. As an example or a typical drag car...If your trans output is pointed down from parallel to the ground say 4°(big block and motor plate) and the pinion as measured is 2° down from parallel with the ground(SS springs w/ the shorter from segment), that means you need to shim the leaf spring perches or cut and relocate them to get the pinion down far enough to get proper pinion angle under load. In this example's case that would be 2°. Leaving the pinion "down" 4° from the trans output at rest. Pinion angle on a stick car is as critical as the shock package and clutch choice to keep from breaking stuff. Video the car and see how much the body seperates, then duplicate it witha floor jack, and you should be close to what your car is doing under load. You may find you need more angle... Or less.
 
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