Header fitment rant, Doug's

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MOA said:
None of the headers were the same. Explain that.
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Just sayin that you tried multiple headers, none of which fit YOUR car. So seems like it might not be the headers.....And since I last commented on your thread a while back, I helped a buddy install a set of Doug's on a 70 duster with a 318, they cleared everything with not even a ding necessary. So obviously my experience has been different than yours I suppose.
 
I don't think the engines vary as much as chassis do. The #3 header tube should be pretty close to the oil pan, the second one I tried was the best fit bit still not as close as it should be.

My engine block and head can't be that far different than the rest.

On the last install you did, how close to the pan is the header, this is important to know. None of the headers I tried fit the same, none. That's not the cars fault.

The only conclusion I can come to is that the production standards are not very high, it has nothing to do with the car. Doug's did everything they could do to accommodate me, I do not fault the company for customer service.
 
My conclusion is, put the Damn header on and modify the rest of the exhaust system. I shouldn't have to but I'm tired of messing with it and need to move on, it's been holding up the show for far too long. I'd like to get the car on the road, I have 99% of the new parts I need to finish the car.

It's disappointing.
 
I can definitely understand your frustration, I have been there. Next time I see my buddy with the duster, I'll look at the tube to pan clearance, I dont recall offhand. I just know we didn't have to ding anything at all.
 
MOA said:
My conclusion is, put the Damn header on and modify the rest of the exhaust system. I shouldn't have to but I'm tired of messing with it and need to move on, it's been holding up the show for far too long. I'd like to get the car on the road, I have 99% of the new parts I need to finish the car.

It's disappointing.
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Here's a picture of my Patriot headers. They seem to be good quality and finish but the passenger side is angled out quite a bit. So much so that it is hitting the torsion bar. There is no reason for that.
20180516_194810.jpg
 
72bluNblu said:
So, you’re doing 10x the amount of work to make your scamp handle like a truck so you don’t have to dimple some headers? Except you’ll probably have to custom make your headers. Thinking truck headers will bolt right up in your scamp with a Dakota crossmember is beyond wishful thinking.

There’s a dozen people in this thread that posted they had no issues at all with their headers. And one that had a terrible time for a still undetermined reason. Seems like you’re cherry picking the answer you want to hear to justify a decision you’ve already made.
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Nope I'm doing 10x the work to make headers fit so I can build the car into something I can bomb down old logging roads with.The dakota suspension gives rack and pinion steering, bigger brakes,and a much stronger suspension design.Merely as an added bonus it will free up header space.
 
Just curious, have you tried some different motor mounts or anything else related to the engine mounting/positioning? Did you compare dimensions on your mounts to some other type mounts? I think we all have had a challenge with something that seemed to work well with others at some point and time, would be nice to know if there is something besides some bad fabrication tolerances causing your issues
 
MOA said:
None of the headers were the same. Explain that.
Click to expand...

It's called production tolerances. Have you ever tried building your own set of headers? You're welding thin wall tube to a relatively thin flange. It doesn't matter what kind of jig you use, there is always some amount of warpage.

There's more variation in some of those headers than I would like to see, and it's possible that Doug's has made changes to their production tolerances and are now sending out headers that have larger dimensional variances than they used to. Not sure. But if you understand the production of a set of headers, you'd understand that they're not going to all be identical no matter what. Profit margin tends to dictate what you accept and when you start tossing stuff in the recycle pile, but none of them are ever identical. The same is true for these cars. A 1/4" of body variation is commonplace. Header clearances on these cars often boil down to less than an 1/8". You see the problem. Adjustment is required.

billsdartgt said:
Just curious, have you tried some different motor mounts or anything else related to the engine mounting/positioning? Did you compare dimensions on your mounts to some other type mounts? I think we all have had a challenge with something that seemed to work well with others at some point and time, would be nice to know if there is something besides some bad fabrication tolerances causing your issues
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We've been down that road several times in this thread. His motor mounts are no where near the stock dimensions. But although it's been pointed out many times, he's never posted anything to suggest he's tried anything different.
 
Right, when I've swapped engines & it involved welding/fabbing, I got plenty of reference points including crank centerline before even starting. You can't throw random stuff together & be puzzled that nobody's stuff fits Your car.
That said, I put TTI tailpipes & a pair of Dynomax's on My Buddy's '73 Satellite after I swapped a 440 into it, along with Hooker super-comp headers. TTI said They'd put a set of the same part#s on their "build mule" and build an H-pipe for Me. They said it could be a risk because of variations in quality,.....boy were They right. I had to send 'em back & eat the shipping & costs, then just welded up My own.......which I guess I should've just done in the 1st place..................
 
I'm done with this topic.

Try not to shoot the messenger. That would be good.
 
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After reading this thread I was a little hesitant to start. But took about an hour to fit driver side. Fits perfect. Removed starter, dropped pitman arm and jacked up engine. 68 cuda convertible. YMMV.
 
I posted about my problems with Dougs a few months ago. I put TFS heads on and then installed Dougs at the time, mine fit like crap, hit everywhere, raised the motor 1/2" beat them, you name it. These f ing harders are way over blown how good they are. You should not have to beat up a 600.00 header, Never would I recommend these headers. Just buy the cheap ones, it won't hurt so bad when you have to dent them. Dougs need to get there crap together.
 
Dennis Hilliard said:
I posted about my problems with Dougs a few months ago. I put TFS heads on and then installed Dougs at the time, mine fit like crap, hit everywhere, raised the motor 1/2" beat them, you name it. These f ing harders are way over blown how good they are. You should not have to beat up a 600.00 header, Never would I recommend these headers. Just buy the cheap ones, it won't hurt so bad when you have to dent them. Dougs need to get there crap together.
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You should try spending even more money on TTI's and having the same experience, they're not any better.

Like I said at the beginning of this whole mess, these cars have 1/4" production tolerances, and in many cases the clearance to the headers is 1/8" or less. Think about that for a second. One size does not fit all. It's not on TTI or Doug's, they're trying to hit a moving target. Add into the mix the fact that we all use different aftermarket parts and you just get what you get. TTI's fit some cars better than others. Doug's fit some cars better than others. Only way to know which one will fit YOUR car best is to buy a set and try it. The Doug's on my Duster fit great! The TTI shorties I bought to replace them to gain a little more ground clearance didn't fit as well as the Doug's did, even though the shorties should have been an easier fit. Just the way it goes.
 
72bluNblu said:
You should try spending even more money on TTI's and having the same experience, they're not any better.

Like I said at the beginning of this whole mess, these cars have 1/4" production tolerances, and in many cases the clearance to the headers is 1/8" or less. Think about that for a second. One size does not fit all. It's not on TTI or Doug's, they're trying to hit a moving target. Add into the mix the fact that we all use different aftermarket parts and you just get what you get. TTI's fit some cars better than others. Doug's fit some cars better than others. Only way to know which one will fit YOUR car best is to buy a set and try it. The Doug's on my Duster fit great! The TTI shorties I bought to replace them to gain a little more ground clearance didn't fit as well as the Doug's did, even though the shorties should have been an easier fit. Just the way it goes.
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All the more reason to buy the cheap ones. If I won't to gamble I go to Vegas, If we are dealing with a header fitting with only a 1/4 difference in some cars then whey buy them in the first place. It was sickening to have to dent these headers. I would just but a cheaper brand at half the money and have money left over to buy a hammer.
 
Dennis Hilliard said:
All the more reason to buy the cheap ones. If I won't to gamble I go to Vegas, If we are dealing with a header fitting with only a 1/4 difference in some cars then whey buy them in the first place. It was sickening to have to dent these headers. I would just but a cheaper brand at half the money and have money left over to buy a hammer.
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The cheaper headers are even worse. And most of them run under the steering link, so, even if they go on without being smashed flat one good speed bump and they're smashed flat anyway. A complete waste of money. Less money, but still a total waste. At least on a car that sits as low as mine does. I love my Doug's D453's and I will buy more for my other projects. I will install my TTI shorties on my Dart because I have them, but I wouldn't buy them again.

And then there's the engine masters video where they showed that even major dents to a header don't effect the dyno...
 
I will never buy another under the steering header, even if someone gives me a set.
I installed TTIs on my Eddie-headed and decked 360, and yes I had to make a few BFH adjustments. That is called making it work, and HotRodding. I mean everything on my car got there because I made it work. The headers were the least of my problems.
The thing is, those TTIs are still on the car 20 years later. Yeah the merges leak a lil, again. Nothing I can't fix. How many under the steering headers, can boast a 20 year and counting, lifespan?
Oh and I almost forgot; the header gaskets on these have never leaked and the bolts have never come loose.
 
Almost the exact experience I've had with TTi's, except mine fit with NO BFH adjustments necessary. Never leaked, never blew out the gaskets or had bolts back out, unlike nearly every other header I've experienced, regardless of brand or application. Yes, they began to discolor slightly after about 10 years of hard use, so what.
 
Mine would have fit fine; but
When I installed the Moog Problem solver offset UCA bushings, I got greedy for caster... which got me into bumpsteer because it rotated the centerlink down, which put the pitman arm stud nut into one of the tubes. I cut the nut and the stud as far as I could without loosing the cotterpin hole. But I still needed a bit more clearance, no biggie.
Also, I installed the 1.03 T-bars, and in certain situations, one of the tubes on the driver's side would rattle on it; no biggie to adjust.
It's just time. If you love this kind of adventure, your time means nothing. I have, for sure, hundreds and hundreds of hours in my project........ and it's still not finished.
But I understand that only the first time is an adventure. The more times I do a thing, the less I am interested in do-overs.
But I had, at the start of the project, consigned myself to pulling the engine every winter for inspection and freshening. Into it it's place I slid a smogger-teen, to get me thru the winter. (I mean the car was my DD,4-seasons, cuz I couldn't afford a winter beater, and I had waaaay too much time and money invested in this car to not drive it 4 seasons). On this teener, I experimented with different gears and transmissions, for the upcoming summer.
Back to the 360, the first three times I tore it down, I found something developing inside it that could have destroyed it, so IMO, I was doing the right thing. Since I was broke, and engines are expensive, gaskets were cheap, and time was free.
It went like this for five or six winters, until my son made me an offer on the smogger-teen, and the automatic behind it, and the rear end, that I couldn't refuse. So around 2005 or so was the last time it came apart. Thankfully things were now, for two winters in a row, hanging tuff inside the 360, so no more tear-downs were scheduled.
Of course, every time I tore it down, I had to modify something, right? Lol.

So adjusting the TTIs was no biggie.....
 
Happy with the Doug's for my 66 Barracuda. No problems with fit. I ended up wrapping them to keep heat away from wires. I pulled the driver's side off to remove the steering gear for a rebuild.

IMG_20200128_212457.jpg

IMG_20200128_212637.jpg
 
72bluNblu said:
It's called production tolerances. Have you ever tried building your own set of headers? You're welding thin wall tube to a relatively thin flange. It doesn't matter what kind of jig you use, there is always some amount of warpage.

There's more variation in some of those headers than I would like to see, and it's possible that Doug's has made changes to their production tolerances and are now sending out headers that have larger dimensional variances than they used to. Not sure. But if you understand the production of a set of headers, you'd understand that they're not going to all be identical no matter what. Profit margin tends to dictate what you accept and when you start tossing stuff in the recycle pile, but none of them are ever identical. The same is true for these cars. A 1/4" of body variation is commonplace. Header clearances on these cars often boil down to less than an 1/8". You see the problem. Adjustment is required.



We've been down that road several times in this thread. His motor mounts are no where near the stock dimensions. But although it's been pointed out many times, he's never posted anything to suggest he's tried anything different.
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Yep.

Schumacher mounts, Schumacher conversion brackets, 40-50 year old cars that we don’t know what the frames and chassis have been through. All kinds people have hacked and wrecked on these cars over the years. Also you got aftermarket replacement wearable chassis parts that sometimes don’t have the same geometry.

Basically you buy one of these cars you’ve gotta inventory everything and know what’s changed and what’s not. And if you wanna change pieces of the puzzle with aftermarket pieces connecting to other aftermarket pieces.... better have some modding skills to bring to the table,

Welcome to your 50 year old “box of chocolates” ....

... you never know what you are going to get.
 
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