Healthy Head?

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Well, I hope the shop didn't charge you much for the rattle can rebuild.
 
morsim said:
Negative. Although I did notice that after coming back from the shop (forgot to test before), most of the valve springs were (with two-thumbed effort) compressible by hand - except the ones that had bent pushrods attached to em (+ a couple others that I may have just not pressed hard enough on)... Go figure!

If I'm not mistaken, I see that the process in Dan's guide should fix stuck valves too, so I'll have to try it out.
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pushrods don't generally "just bend"... something has to precipitate the issue. without figuring that out, you're just gonna bend two more push rods.

so the way that i'm reading it, is you took the head to the machine shop and said: yo, check this out. and then they called you after [insert amount of time] and said: hey it's ready, come bring us money.

so then you meandered on down to the shop, gave them a stack of folding money and went on your way without any discussion of the work that took place in exchange to said aforementioned folding monies?
 
junkyardhero said:
pushrods don't generally "just bend"... something has to precipitate the issue. without figuring that out, you're just gonna bend two more push rods.

so the way that i'm reading it, is you took the head to the machine shop and said: yo, check this out. and then they called you after [insert amount of time] and said: hey it's ready, come bring us money.

so then you meandered on down to the shop, gave them a stack of folding money and went on your way without any discussion of the work that took place in exchange to said aforementioned folding monies?
Click to expand...
I think you pegged it.
 
Unfortunately I haven't quite been in the game long enough as y'all folks to truly understand the extent of what needs to line up for what I thought was just a "remove old and pop in new gasket" job.
Coming into this project as my first I was not expecting such fine grained requirements as I've been so informed - so please : pray_emoji : excuse my ignorance.
I'm just a guy that inherited a car that's been sitting for 30 years without turning over once. Got said car running. Said car developed a smoking problem - which turned out to be bigger than originally understood based on some online research and in-person talks with my mechanic friend.
And the rest is history...
 
look man, we're not trying to come off holier than thou or as some kind of god level know-it-alls (although it's well known i was born dick first with a wrench in my hand and a roller chest attached to my umbilical cord), it's just that we've been around long enough to see some ****.

with the information that you're lacking-- any diagnostics pre tear down, and the big question mark of what all was done to the head-- as well as your level of mechanical knowledge, things aren't looking to shake out real good on the B-side of the work here.

and i'm not saying that trying to be a dick or anything, but details matter. especially when it comes to engine work. and so descriptions like: i pressed the round thing and i'm not sure if i need to press the other round thing, don't really get us anywhere toward understanding what's going on and that just inhibits the path toward repair.

anyway, at this point you're already pot committed so you might as well play out the hand. clean up the rocker gear real well, and re-install it with a little dab of grease on the valve tips and on the balls where they meet the push rods. a dab on the push rods where they meet the lifters wouldn't be the worst idea. shoot some lube on the shaft at the rockers too.

the intake and exhaust are a party to knock back together. use the search feature here or over at slantsix.org plus some u toob vidyas and you should get the idea. DO.NOT.OVER.TORQUE.THINGS.AND.STUFFS. there are plenty of online resources for the FSM (mymopar.com) so there is no excuse not to get it right. if you don't have a torque wrench beg borrow or steal the money to buy one, or borrow one from your mechanic friend.

good luck getting it back together, hombre. let us know how it turns out.
 
Neither machine shop I deal with would let that head leave without at least lapping those valves in and more likely touching them to the valve grinder while they were out and apart, and cutting the seats even if only enough to verify they are concentric, and new guide seals while it was apart anyway. And minimally checking for warpage with a machined straight edge and a feeler gauge/ if not a trip across the mill
And personally I wouldn't want to take that head home without that amount of work done, at a minimum
...

Head work can get way more in depth than that easily.
But the R+R you are doing is no different with a properly redone head than it would be with a rattle can rebuild head like you got.... But the difference in results can be huge.... Might mean the difference between having a redo on your hands sooner than later
 
morsim said:
Unfortunately I haven't quite been in the game long enough as y'all folks to truly understand the extent of what needs to line up for what I thought was just a "remove old and pop in new gasket" job.
Coming into this project as my first I was not expecting such fine grained requirements as I've been so informed - so please : pray_emoji : excuse my ignorance.
I'm just a guy that inherited a car that's been sitting for 30 years without turning over once. Got said car running. Said car developed a smoking problem - which turned out to be bigger than originally understood based on some online research and in-person talks with my mechanic friend.
And the rest is history...
Click to expand...
We're trying to tell you how to do it as hard as we can. We're not talkin outta our asses. Some of us have been doing this forty years and more. Here's the scenario. You came here and asked for help. We gave it. Then, you ignored said help and did something completely different. Like @junkyardhero said, we're not trying to be holier than thou. We're trying to help, like you asked.
 
RustyRatRod said:
We're trying to tell you how to do it as hard as we can. We're not talkin outta our asses. Some of us have been doing this forty years and more. Here's the scenario. You came here and asked for help. We gave it. Then, you ignored said help and did something completely different. Like @junkyardhero said, we're not trying to be holier than thou. We're trying to help, like you asked.
Click to expand...
Understood. This is a self-blame situation. Don't mean to put anything on y'all in the slightest. I, with my lack of understanding coming into this repair, thought it'd be an in and out job. A few days max.
I am leaving the country in about a week and would surely never had taken this on right now knowing all that'd be involved - considering such a tight time budget (and truthfully, money). This is the only reason I've HAD to cut corners, since I really need to get her running at the very least before I leave for the next 7 months. Maybe "fast& effective" doesn't go hand-in-hand though. Sigh.

(It also happens to be 95° out).
 
Not a good plight… given your lack of information as to what the shop did to the head. Is there any way you can follow up and simply ask them? Sure, they may lie, but it’s better than nothin! But if you can’t get this info (or you don’t trust it!) I’d ask you this. Is the head back on and torqued down or is it just resting on the block? If just resting, I’d do the following to learn some info the shop didn’t share with you. Heck I would even suggest unbolting the head and gasket even if it’s already torqued down. Rent or borrow a valve spring compressor and compress the springs of the two valves that had bent pushrods and remove the keepers, retainers and springs. Now pull off the umbrella seals and smush and roll them between thumb and forefinger. If they crumble, no bueno. They’re old. If they split, same deal. If they’re resilient and pliable, they’ve likely been replaced and you got something other than a rattle can rebuild. Now try to press the valve stem out of the head by hand (head on its side). Are the valves tight? You should be able to, with some minor guide resistance, easily move the valve back and forth without mechanical assistance. Otherwise, the problem that caused the bent pushrods is still there. Could be coked up guides, oil starvation galling, or just a lot of crud. But it needs proper sorting or you’ll be pulling the head again in no time to replace two more bent pushrods. Now don’t get me wrong. If the valves are moving okay in their guides, it doesn’t fully clear up the bent pushrod condition. Your rockers could be partially frozen, although I highly doubt a cruddy rocker could bend a pushrod. It would have to be laying upside down in the muck without a valve cover to get that seized… All signs point to stuck valves here, IMHO. You just need the assurance that the shop addressed the root cause of the problem. If they aren’t forthcoming with info you trust, you need to verify what was done using the process I described above. If the valve assemblies pass with flying colors and the umbrella seals are pliable, that’s good. Reassemble the valves and you can bolt that head back on with much greater confidence. Make sure those keepers are properly seated before releasing the spring tension from the spring compressor. Check neighboring valves for reference. You’ll learn from this experience for sure, but at least you’ll be reasonably assured of success getting this old engine running again. The smoking condition could be stuck rings from sitting. Those may free up with time and use of quality oil and fuel. Good luck, man!
 
junkyardhero said:
pushrods don't generally "just bend"... something has to precipitate the issue. without figuring that out, you're just gonna bend two more push rods.

so the way that i'm reading it, is you took the head to the machine shop and said: yo, check this out. and then they called you after [insert amount of time] and said: hey it's ready, come bring us money.

so then you meandered on down to the shop, gave them a stack of folding money and went on your way without any discussion of the work that took place in exchange to said aforementioned folding monies?
Click to expand...
When you have the problem and confront them, they will just say, "we did what you asked, we cleaned up the heads". As others mentioned here, there is a reason the two pushrods bent. I could not tell from your photos, but did the valves hit the pistons in those two cylinders. Was the motor running a little ruff before the malfunction? Possible nothing wrong with the head, but possible a timing chain jump or something else in that way. I would remove the lifters from the mishap bores and check them out for anything that does not look correct. If they are ok, make sure you install them in the same location.
 
As it may be known I've been in a time crunch for this project and was just set on a date of completion that I wanted to meet at the very least with a reassembled vehicle since I'd be away for the next 7ish months. Would not mind having to come back for round 2 with more time on my hands, but I assumed it wouldn't be great if the engine guts were left exposed to the elements (AKA general outdoors) for that amount of time. I'm not working under a roof.

That being said, she's back together. All new gaskets. I did not have the time to replace or check on the valve seals this time 'round. I will do so when I get back.

To clarify, I instructed the machinist only to clean the head. He quoted the price for a full rebuild (new seals, etc.) but I declined simply because I'm tight on money - this time 'round.
It came back painted too, which I honestly wasn't expecting.

Now that I have more time to write in length, here's some further context:
The car was purchased from a garage it has not left in over 30 years.
She wouldn't start, but thanks to the collective conscious that makes up this forum, we were so back in no time, as seen here. Everything was great 'n smooth, and we hit the road for a good while with no issues other than really difficult braking.
We end off the day with an oil change.

Fast forward a few days, my buddy and I give it a 3 hour tow to our hometown, arriving at night. The next morning we start'er up, and it's just all around rough.
Hard starts, misfires, blowing smoke, you name it.

That brings us to more recent times. Following the "repair" as documented in this thread, she gets fired up for the first time following open heart surgery. The head is back on, push rods are replaced, valve cover is reattached, gas is depressed to set choke, and the key is turned.
Surprisingly, we encounter the smoothest start ever. The engine is very stable with minimal shaking.
We let it run for a good while following some clamp tightening of leaking coolant hoses - but other than that, all around smooth running.
There was still some smoking from the exhaust but it actually disappeared after mucho idling time (and didn't return, even on rev).

Now I understand we're working with a slant 6 here and it'll run even off dish soap, but please, rip at me for my corner-cutting -- I can take it, and I will start appending the to-do list for when I get back. Starting with @Oyster60V200 and others valve seal advice. Pinky promise. :thumbsup:
 
Last edited:
morsim said:
As it may be known I've been in a time crunch for this project and was just set on a date of completion that I wanted to meet at the very least with a reassembled vehicle since I'd be away for the next 7ish months. Would not mind having to come back for round 2 with more time on my hands, but I assumed it wouldn't be great if the engine guts were left exposed to the elements (AKA general outdoors) for that amount of time. I'm not working under a roof.

That being said, she's back together. All new gaskets. I did not have the time to replace or check on the valve seals this time 'round. I will do so when I get back.

To clarify, I instructed the machinist only to clean the head. He quoted the price for a full rebuild (new seals, etc.) but I declined simply because I'm tight on money - this time 'round.
It came back painted too, which I honestly wasn't expecting.

Now that I have more time to write in length, here's some further context:
The car was purchased from a garage it has not left in over 30 years.
She wouldn't start, but thanks to the collective conscious that makes up this forum, we were so back in no time, as seen here.
We end off the day with an oil change.

Fast forward a few days, my buddy and I give it a 3 hour tow to our hometown, arriving at night. The next morning we start'er up, and it's just all around rough.
Hard starts, misfires, blowing smoke, you name it.

That brings us to more recent times. Following the "repair" as documented in this thread, she gets fired up for the first time following open heart surgery. The head is back on, push rods are replaced, valve cover is reattached, gas is depressed to set choke, and the key is turned.
Surprisingly, we encounter the smoothest start ever. The engine is very stable with minimal shaking.
We let it run for a good while following some clamp tightening of leaking coolant hoses - but other than that, all around smooth running.
There was still some smoking from the exhaust but it actually disappeared after mucho idling time (and didn't return, even on rev).

Now I understand we're working with a slant 6 here and it'll run even off dish soap, but please, rip at me for my corner-cutting -- I can take it, and I will start appending the to-do list for when I get back. Starting with @Oyster60V200 and others valve seal advice. Pinky promise. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...
Glad it turned out good! Sounds like with your time constraints, that's exactly what you needed.
 
ya know what, i can't get down on you too much. it's back together and running.

for future endeavors repeat the mantra: why is there always time to do it twice, but never time to do it right the first time!
 
morsim said:
As it may be known I've been in a time crunch for this project and was just set on a date of completion that I wanted to meet at the very least with a reassembled vehicle since I'd be away for the next 7ish months. Would not mind having to come back for round 2 with more time on my hands, but I assumed it wouldn't be great if the engine guts were left exposed to the elements (AKA general outdoors) for that amount of time. I'm not working under a roof.

That being said, she's back together. All new gaskets. I did not have the time to replace or check on the valve seals this time 'round. I will do so when I get back.

To clarify, I instructed the machinist only to clean the head. He quoted the price for a full rebuild (new seals, etc.) but I declined simply because I'm tight on money - this time 'round.
It came back painted too, which I honestly wasn't expecting.

Now that I have more time to write in length, here's some further context:
The car was purchased from a garage it has not left in over 30 years.
She wouldn't start, but thanks to the collective conscious that makes up this forum, we were so back in no time, as seen here. Everything was great 'n smooth, and we hit the road for a good while with no issues other than really difficult braking.
We end off the day with an oil change.

Fast forward a few days, my buddy and I give it a 3 hour tow to our hometown, arriving at night. The next morning we start'er up, and it's just all around rough.
Hard starts, misfires, blowing smoke, you name it.

That brings us to more recent times. Following the "repair" as documented in this thread, she gets fired up for the first time following open heart surgery. The head is back on, push rods are replaced, valve cover is reattached, gas is depressed to set choke, and the key is turned.
Surprisingly, we encounter the smoothest start ever. The engine is very stable with minimal shaking.
We let it run for a good while following some clamp tightening of leaking coolant hoses - but other than that, all around smooth running.
There was still some smoking from the exhaust but it actually disappeared after mucho idling time (and didn't return, even on rev).

Now I understand we're working with a slant 6 here and it'll run even off dish soap, but please, rip at me for my corner-cutting -- I can take it, and I will start appending the to-do list for when I get back. Starting with @Oyster60V200 and others valve seal advice. Pinky promise. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...
That’s great news that it runs smoothly and starts quickly. One of the attributes I’ve found most slant sixes share. Given that she’s all buttoned up and back in operation, you might be out of the woods for the time being. I wouldn’t remove the head now just to replace umbrella seals as I was discussing earlier. That was just in the slight chance that you didn’t get it back together yet. Valve seals are actually easier (I think at least) to do with the head on using the air-compressor-in-spark-plug-hole method many have already detailed. But if it isn’t smoking or running roughly or using oil, you can wait it out. Next time you need to remove the valve cover (valve lash adjustment possibly) you can prod the seals with a pick and see how resilient they are. If the seals are failing, you’ll know from the blue puff on decel that you were already aware of and say isn’t present. The smoking going away after mucho idling could be what I suspected, stuck rings freeing up with use and fresh oil. Not uncommon for a long haul storage engine. My ‘60 V-200 170 slant six was so crudded up, nothing could free it. Marvel Mystery? It just pooled in there like blood. I even jacked up the car at a 30 degree angle to make it a slant Valiant with a straight six just to evenly distribute the oil. When that didn’t work, off with the head, direct tapping on piston tops with an oak block and a hammer. Nope. Big *** breaker bar on the harmonic balancer nut? Bent my breaker bar. I ended up buying my friend’s built up 225 out of his scrapped ‘71 Dart Swinger. When I finally disassembled the old 170, I needed to violently pound on the pistons to get them out even after the crank was gone and everything was freed up. That baby was STUCK! So you got lucky it sounds like. They probably hot tanked the head and that may have softened up hardened seals a bit. But this is speculation. Run it, enjoy it, improve it. Glad there’s another A body on the road!
 
Next time you need to remove the valve cover (valve lash adjustment possibly)
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Oh yea, that's one thing I forgot to mention. I adjusted the lash too before putting the valve cover back on for good (after she was hot, of course).
Would it be wise to replace the cover gasket any time I remove the cover (like for valve seals), or can I just rinse and reuse?
 
Depends on what type of gasket it is. And how old/brittle it has become, how long it's been since you last had it off, etc.
I have (for me anyway) what will probably be a lifetime supply of fel pro ones I got in a package deal from eBay a year or so ago.
I needed some TQ carb base gaskets and the same seller had like 6 ea of those and /6 v c gaskets.
When I built my most recent/6 those "real gaskets" were somehow popular so I thought I would try those. I haven't run it much, so the oils been "holed up" in the oil pan so there's been none in the head to leak in a while, but 1) I've heard some not so good things about them since and 2) they now sell 2 versions, one's a different type of rubber I believe than the other one so maybe they realized an issue? I don't know. I don't have an engine coated with oil on the outside, so I can't yet tell.
 
I usually reuse but I do the following: I clean the valve cover face very thoroughly and dry. Then I apply a light coat of high quality RTV to both faces of the gasket and immediately “glue” it in place on the cover. Set aside and let the head side of the gasket dry out thoroughly before installing. It’s worked well on the various slant sixes and Jeep 4.0 straight sixes I’ve run and both are famous for leaks. Also, and you may know this already, but go light on the torque of the valve cover bolts. Otherwise, the cover will distort and overly compress the gasket right under the bolt and leave weak areas between the bolts for leaks to form. If, when you remove the cover to do valve adjustment, some of the RTV or gasket cork stays behind, scrape off the residue and apply a light filler coat of RTV and you’ll be back in business. I also work on a Volvo C-303 for a friend of mine with the B-30 straight six. These engines are getting more and more rare and suffer from typical long straight six valve cover leakage. The gaskets are commanding over $100 on EBay if you can find them, so naturally I made sure I could reuse. I did the same RTV and dry-out procedure. No oil leaks, and it pops right off every time. As they say, your mileage may vary, but this has served me well for over 30 years of wrenching.
 
Were the rockers getting oil up there while you were running it? I purchased a car with a 225 slant six that had sat for almost 35 years and at first it ran smooth but kept getting worse and running more ragged. When I pulled the valve cover I found that the intake valve on cylinders 3, 4, and 5 were stuck due to lack of oiling and the number 5 pushrod was bent. The other two had jumped out from under the rocker arms. First I put some oil on the valve stems and tapped them with a hammer to get them unstuck. I pulled the rocker shaft and found the passage in the head from the rear head bolt hole to the rocker shaft hold down bolt hole was full of gunk. I had to take the rear head bolt out and clean the passage to the rear rocker shaft bolt. After I did that, it ran smooth and oil came out the top and ends of the rockers as it should. Hopefully the shop made sure that passage is clean.
 
nckennyb said:
Were the rockers getting oil up there while you were running it? I purchased a car with a 225 slant six that had sat for almost 35 years and at first it ran smooth but kept getting worse and running more ragged. When I pulled the valve cover I found that the intake valve on cylinders 3, 4, and 5 were stuck due to lack of oiling and the number 5 pushrod was bent. The other two had jumped out from under the rocker arms. First I put some oil on the valve stems and tapped them with a hammer to get them unstuck. I pulled the rocker shaft and found the passage in the head from the rear head bolt hole to the rocker shaft hold down bolt hole was full of gunk. I had to take the rear head bolt out and clean the passage to the rear rocker shaft bolt. After I did that, it ran smooth and oil came out the top and ends of the rockers as it should. Hopefully the shop made sure that passage is clean.
Click to expand...
I'm surprise you didn't have a oil issue at the #6 cylinder. The 6's are known to have a low oiling at the rear of the motors. Not sure why but I have seen a lot of 6cyl motors, gunk - up. I think it is because of lack of oil changes. The valve covers all leak and the owners just add more oil and must think that is the same as an oil change.
 
So....white and blue smoke out the tail pipe, " do a valve job????
To what, increase the cylinder pressure and increase the blow by....
?????
 
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