Help me understand rebuild vs crate?

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remember it doesn't have to be a "crate" either there are plenty of reputable builders that will build you one of their"package"motors for a good price and stand behind it .How many of these superstars are going to send you new roller rockers plus springs and retainers for free when yours fail ? My builder handled swapping the bad parts with the manufacturer for new at no charge after the motor had been in the car for 5 years it's easy to chirp on the internet about what you may or may not be doing it's a different thing to nut up when things go side ways .
 
Marcohotrod said:
5cc of valve relief pistons. 1.92'' valves due to the small bore size. and being your first build-try your best to do everything right, take your time, and keep it simple. when u do it yourself every time you hear it run it is great!
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Interesting take on the valve size. I was thinking due to the high elevation and the low absolute atmospheric pressure which will be around 23 psi at 7000', then the larger valves would be good to help limit restrictions to cylinder filling more than at low elevations. You're losing over 20% of the pressure available to push mixture into the cylinders at those elevations.....
 
Johnny Mac said:
Just a general statement about our warranty. You're not "on your own" by any means. And you don't lose support for a self install. The #1 thing to remember is to call us directly, if there is an issue. Warranty Verbiage has to be what it is, in black and white, to protect us as a company from exploitation. Now, what you have from me, is a promise that if you follow our procedures, and pre-approval process, you will NOT end up on your own, or out of pocket for things that are clearly no fault of your own. Our warranty team is excellent, and I can say that we do go FAR above the black and white language of a warranty statement. If you do a rebuild yourself, thats no problem at all with me, but don't let it be because you think you become 100% responsible for the engine the second you drop it in yourself. And also, if it comes to a point where it needs pulled and returned to us for repair or replacement, we obviously cover the freight also.

Best of luck either way! again not trying to toot my own horn at all. Just want to keep an eye on the assumptions related to us.

If you do a rebuild, remember we sell some trick ignition and fuel components also :) even if its a $20 coil, i'll be happy to help any way I can! At the end of the day I'm also a mopar owner thats done a bunch of engine installs and vehicle builds. Helping is my top goal. that doesn't change just because you aren't sitting on 5K of BPE product. :)
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Honestly, what you say means nothing. What's written in the warranty that is all that matters.
 
Ehhh, what bullshit would that be, boy?

Nobody said anything about it being easy. I just went back and read every post before yours. The only person who even came close said "straight forward" and he was right.

So, if you're gonna sling **** and say there's bullshit, man up and point out what you think it is. Otherwise, you're just bein an *** with this post. Maybe I took it wrong.......

You do make some valid points though.......most that people who do it themselves take for granted. For instance, I never think about my tools, like engine stands, my engine hoist and general shop tools. They are "just there". To me, if you have an older car, you should have all the tools you need to do everything to it. I know there are those that don't and rely on others to work on their stuff and that's cool too. But people who actl like they do their own stuff and don't get stuck in my craw.

Oh, I know I've mentioned this somewhere on here before, but I like your car. I had a 73 340 Charger the same color.

Dusterdenovo said:
Keep the bullshit to a minimum here boys.

Any engine you build yourself (tell us again how you smelted the ore when casting your block) doesnt magically attach itself to the car or magically float back on to the engine stand when something breaks. I installed my crate motor all by myself and I can sure as hell pull it back out if I have to. It's ridiculous to suggest that building a motor is simple, doable, whatever, but the potential need to yank it out yourself is somehow an evil game changer. And BTW I don't necessarily interpret the fine print that way either.

Besides buying the crate motor, there are still a thousand other things to do with all the other bolt ons, peripherals, welding, cleaning, plumbing, wiring etc etc which ALL provide massive amounts of satisfaction when it all comes together and it fires up.

Everyone's individual situation is different; I think the OP was looking for some objective input on his next move. Like so many previous, similar threads, the purely subjective arguments are coming from folks who HAVENT any real world experience with one of these engines.

Some before and after pictures. And yeah, I feel very satisfied.

View attachment 1715184704 View attachment 1715184706
View attachment 1715184708
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yellow rose said:
Honestly, what you say means nothing. What's written in the warranty that is all that matters.
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Appears to me if you install it yourself, you still get parts coverage, and a warrantied replacement if the engine were to be beyond repair. Thats still more than I see anyone else offering?
 
Caco2120 said:
Appears to me if you install it yourself, you still get parts coverage, and a warrantied replacement if the engine were to be beyond repair. Thats still more than I see anyone else offering?
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I'm talking about the "promise". Contract law has been around long enough to know anything not in the four corners of the document and agreed to by both parties doesn't mean a thing.

That was the point of my post.

Hell, I promised my wife the sun, moon, stars and **** like sex. Guess how that turned out for her! It wasn't in writing.
 
Point of this thread is to compare the choice. And I will say that if I didn't actually want to go through the build process myself, there is no doubt that Blueprint would be my first call. I actually already called them a few weeks ago! Tons of great words out there on blueprint and they are making the choice simple for people that want a quality product for a really reasonable price. You almost cannot build yourself a 408 for the price that they charge. On top of that they are standing behind their product with a warranty.

I have no doubt that if the blueprint engine had a problem they would make it right. I think the point is that someone still has to do the work to swap something out warranty or not. I needed to be reminded of that, I will feel a lot more comfortable checking a lobe on an engine that I built versus one I bought. More likely, I will know that I can go 10 more ft/lbs on a fastener to stop a leak or do I need to break it down and find out why it leaks.

As far as tools. I own a 1969 vehicle, I have a lot of tools! :)
 
Nothing wrong with the Blueprint stuff......now......they had some issues when they were first around, but I think they are a pretty top notch deal now. Nothing wrong with going with a crate motor, either. I wasn't trying to say that. It's funny how some people love to put words in your mouth.
 
stumblinhorse said:
So the cost that I posted are from talking to Machine shops in my area and summit or equivalent for parts.

I had my 675 heads done a few months ago because they were the original leaded gas valves and were pretty much done. They cost $759 and change to be re-done. Hindsight, I would have never redone them.

Here are the Machining cost.
130 Hot tank
185 Bore and Hone
145 Square the deck
150 freeze plugs and cam bearings installed
230 to balance the rotating assembly
150 line bore if main bearing are bad

That is the lowest cost I could find and not the place I have used in the past that I know does a good job. Not always best to pick the cheapest.

Here is the other cost and links for a simple rebuild

Pistons Keith Black 167 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-kb167ktm-020 $415
Lax heads https://www.indyheads.com/imagesmaxlaxnewproductlinK.pdf $1100 w/shipping
New ARP Head Studs for RHS heads - $75 ARP Individual Studs AR5.750-1LB
Comp cams magnum roller rocker https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-1622-16 $545
New Pushrods $100
Lunati 262 cam and lifter Lunati Voodoo Cam and Lifter Kits 10200702LK $210
Double roller chain Howards Cams Double Roller Billet Steel Timing Sets 94330 $100
Gaskets $150

That is where I got my costs.
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Not arguing the validity of your numbers. Locally here near Bakersfield California I can have my block hot tanked, bored and honed, new cam bearings installed for around 500. I have never had a machine shop install my core plugs before. Line bore is usually only needed if damage to a main journal or if different main caps are swapped on. I just had my 383 balanced at a local machine shop last year and it cost me 150. Yes parts prices go up as you add performance parts. As far as squaring the deck, I would check to see if it is needed first. I still think that all things being equal a 360 is a better investment. All the prices are the same plus you have more cubes. Nothing wrong with the 318. Great motors, just from a performance to dollar standpoint not sure if it i the best.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Ehhh, what bullshit would that be, boy?
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Glad you asked, boy. I am always more than pleased to back up my statements. Some of the excerpts that I categorize as Bullshit include:

*I would never do another crate motor. Mine lasted about 50 miles. Now, what value is a statement like that to the OP or anyone else? Maybe some more details would better illustrate that point.

*If you can run your cable box you can do this. I disagree with this statement because I am smart enough to know that I don't know what I don't know. Sure, those of you that have been building engines for years would agree with this, but not everyone who reads these posts is in that boat. As for myself, I feel that my best efforts in building an engine would never be risk free. And that risk would come with no recourse whatsoever. Whatever risk I might be exposed to with my crate engine I consider infinitely smaller then if doing it myself, and if it breaks their warranty will provide some amount of recourse to me - which can only be determined when and if we get to that point. Either way, if it is greater than zero it's more than I've got if I go it alone. And let's not forget that I could never do it myself for the price I paid to Blueprint. Not even close.

*A lot of the people who buy crate engines don't know a connecting rod from a rocker arm. What is the source of that claim? A false generalization of Crate engine customers.

*you won't get that deep sense of accomplishment from buying a crate. Maybe He won't, but who says noone else will? Crate engines are available in short or long block configurations so people can buy according to their own comfort levels or stash of spare parts. I say let the OP (or others in the same boat who will read this thread) decide for themselves.

*the labor to pull the engine ...... one of the biggest parts of dealing with any engine issue. I kind of doubt that.

In the original post, the OP was looking for feedback to help him decide his course of action. How exactly does any of the above do that?? Over the years, I have searched for and found information on FABO that has been helpful to me to extents that I would never have imagined. BUT in locating that valuable information I have had to sift through piles and piles of speculation, subjective rhetoric, personal bias and good old fashioned Old Wives Tales (you know, Bullshit) to get to what I felt was the truth. When I give feedback, I do my best to stick to the facts and let the OP form his own opinion rather then inflicting my opinion on them. Given my overall success (a few minor glitches along the way) on my project I seem to have waded through it all OK.

If anyone out there has had a Blueprint Engine grenade on them, well let's hear about it.

If anyone with a grenaded Blueprint Engine got fucked over the warranty, well then by all means let's hear about it.

I don't care what anybody does to their own car - there are no wrong answers if it makes the owner happy. My problem is with statements that start with the implied "I think" rather than "I know". No value there.

Hope this answers your question, and no hard feelings to any of the posters to this thread.
 
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Dusterdenovo said:
Glad you asked, boy. I am always more than pleased to back up my statements. Some of the excerpts that I categorize as Bullshit include:

*I would never do another crate motor. Mine lasted about 50 miles. Now, what value is a statement like that to the OP or anyone else? Maybe some more details would better illustrate that point.

*If you can run your cable box you can do this. I disagree with this statement because I am smart enough to know that I don't know what I don't know. Sure, those of you that have been building engines for years would agree with this, but not everyone who reads these posts is in that boat. As for myself, I feel that my best efforts in building an engine would never be risk free. And that risk would come with no recourse whatsoever. Whatever risk I might be exposed to with my crate engine I consider infinitely smaller then if doing it myself, and if it breaks their warranty will provide some amount of recourse to me - which can only be determined when and if we get to that point. Either way, if it is greater than zero it's more than I've got if I go it alone. And let's not forget that I could never do it myself for the price I paid to Blueprint. Not even close.

*A lot of the people who buy crate engines don't know a connecting rod from a rocker arm. What is the source of that claim? A false generalization of Crate engine customers.

*you won't get that deep sense of accomplishment from buying a crate. Maybe He won't, but who says noone else will? Crate engines are available in short or long block configurations so people can buy according to their own comfort levels or stash of spare parts. I say let the OP (or others in the same boat who will read this thread) decide for themselves.

*the labor to pull the engine ...... one of the biggest parts of dealing with any engine issue. I kind of doubt that.

In the original post, the OP was looking for feedback to help him decide his course of action. How exactly does any of the above do that?? Over the years, I have searched for and found information on FABO that has been helpful to me to extents that I would never have imagined. BUT in locating that valuable information I have had to sift through piles and piles of speculation, subjective rhetoric, personal bias and good old fashioned Old Wives Tales (you know, Bullshit) to get to what I felt was the truth. When I give feedback, I do my best to stick to the facts and let the OP form his own opinion rather then inflicting my opinion on them. Given my overall success (a few minor glitches along the way) on my project I seem to have waded through it all OK.

If anyone out there has had a Blueprint Engine grenade on them, well let's hear about it.

If anyone with a grenaded Blueprint Engine got fucked over the warranty, well then by all means let's hear about it.

I don't care what anybody does to their own car - there are no wrong answers if it makes the owner happy. My problem is with statements that start with the implied "I think" rather than "I know". No value there.

Hope this answers your question, and no hard feelings to any of the posters to this thread.
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Anyone building engines know **** is going to fail, break or be jacked up by the customer. That's a FACT.

If you buy something based on a warranty, you are doing exactly what you should be doing. There are no guarantees in life and you damn sure can't eliminate the risks. You can mitigate risk, but that's about it.

All engines fail at some point. FACT.

If the OP is a willing learner and doesn't let his fear overcome his ability to learn he should give it a shot. If the financial risk is so great he can't recover he makes a mistake, buy with the best warranty you can find.

/Bullshit
 
Dusterdenovo said:
G

*A lot of the people who buy crate engines don't know a connecting rod from a rocker arm. What is the source of that claim? A false generalization of Crate engine customers.
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It comes from my own personal experience as a mechanic, machinist, and parts salesman and blah blah blah since 1974. SO, from my EXPERIENCE, it isn't false.
 
yellow rose said:
I'm talking about the "promise". Contract law has been around long enough to know anything not in the four corners of the document and agreed to by both parties doesn't mean a thing.

That was the point of my post.

Hell, I promised my wife the sun, moon, stars and **** like sex. Guess how that turned out for her! It wasn't in writing.
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LOL
 
Blueprint is not paying any taxes in your state, nor hiring fellow citizens, nor putting any of your money into your local economy aside from possibly the truck driver that delivers it. Sourcing labor operations mail order is the surest way to put local shops out of business. To some that matters.
Fact is I'd prefer to know how everything works and do it myself, including fixing issues ignorance might cause. And I'm for using local labor and having shops and professionals around to help me in the future.

"The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done." - John Ruskin
 
stumblinhorse said:
@nm9stheham the warranty thing I was thinking about last night. It is not like you can take it in and they will fix a lifter or something. No fault to blueprint because I think they are a making it so much better for people that don't have the skills or a place to do an engine swap.

So I think I am convinced to go the 390 route. Now I need another thread on 23CC or 5cc pistons? And 1.92 or 2.02 intakes on the LAX? 262 or 268 on the cam? I will never be below 6000ft of elevation. More decisions!
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You haven't picked compression or valve sizes and you are picking a cam?
There are several from Howard, Lunati, Hughes and a coujple of others (not comp) that have a 256 with moe lift and more duration at 200 than the generic 262 0r 268
did you say what converter target (will also depend on cam unless you have one you area going to use to get started (highly recommended)
 
Wyrmrider said:
You haven't picked compression or valve sizes and you are picking a cam?
There are several from Howard, Lunati, Hughes and a coujple of others (not comp) that have a 256 with moe lift and more duration at 200 than the generic 262 0r 268
did you say what converter target (will also depend on cam unless you have one you area going to use to get started (highly recommended)
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It is a 4sp.

The 390 Scat Kit comes with ICON +4.7CC or +23CC Pistons. So I am on the fence on what I realistically could do for compression. My 7000ft above sea level makes me want to go to a 11.5:1 set up with a +4.7CC piston and 62 CC Indy LAX heads. Just square the block not worry about Zeroing it. Then use a Felpro 1008. But worried that is too much trouble to get right. The +23CC would put it around 9.6. Probably an easier to run set up. But am I undershooting what really I could do for the same money?
 
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stumblinhorse said:
I am putting together my plan for a rebuild on my 318 in the fall picking out pistons etc.

It will be a mild street engine. So I am doing a bore and hone, squaring the block etc. New Pistons and heads with roller rockers and new cam/lifters/pushrods.

So my question is all in with me doing all the work it is going to cost me about $3500-4000 to do the rebuild. Machining with balancing is $800, new LAX heads with rockers are $1500. KB 167 +.020 Pistons and rings are $400, New cam, lifters, pushrods, timing chain and gaskets is about another $1000. Then small incidentals, head bolts, fluids total $3500-4k.

I can buy a dressed long block 408 from blueprint for $5000.

I really wanted to rebuild myself, but I am not sure having a mild 318 for 4k is better than a mild 408 for 5k.
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If you build your own, you get it done your way to your standards.... Not what some company wants to throw together and save a few pennies here and there....

If you want it done right, do it yourself.... :thumbsup:
 
MrJLR said:
And I'll be watching every one because I will be building a 318 stroker in the near future myself!

Jeff
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I'm planning to document my youngest son and I building a 360 for his Valiant in the near future and will make a how-to thread on it...

Meanwhile if you all need any help on how to assemble one, give me a shout, I can tell you how they go together...
 
Oh please. I built it. No, you assemble a bunch of pieces and without experience or some one to guide you. You hope for the best. This particular example points directly to the crate motor being the best option. Since you did the floors and a bunch of other stuff I'm sure, you already qualify for the "I built it" badge.
 
I learned at a young age, the age of the true builders era. The mid 70's. I thank my dad and uncle for making me watch and when I started driving, fixing it when it broke. you want a crate motor, I can build it, but it won't be cheap and the warranty is void once you spin it. lol
 
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