Help me understand rebuild vs crate?

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Blind Squirrel said:
Oh please. I built it. No, you assemble a bunch of pieces and without experience or some one to guide you. You hope for the best. This particular example points directly to the crate motor being the best option. Since you did the floors and a bunch of other stuff I'm sure, you already qualify for the "I built it" badge.
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Not sure what you are saying here. If this is sarcasm? But I was looking for opinions on whether buying a crate was the way to go since the cost of rebuild is not much less. Not worried about the skills or tools it takes to do a rebuild. Or a stroker for that matter. Was planning on a rebuild. But after I put a parts list together it was almost as much as a crate engine. So that is why I asked.
 
Blind Squirrel said:
Oh please. I built it. No, you assemble a bunch of pieces and without experience or some one to guide you. You hope for the best. This particular example points directly to the crate motor being the best option. Since you did the floors and a bunch of other stuff I'm sure, you already qualify for the "I built it" badge.
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So where's the hate comin from? Do you not know how to build one? It's no big deal, really. We all know how to do different things. No need throwing crass comments out. It's fine either way, really. I simply gave my opinion of how I feel about it. I am proud that I know how to assemble a good engine. It's a good accomplishment that not everyone knows how to do.

Note I said not everyone knows how to do. I didn't say that everyone cannot do. I believe that anyone can build a good engine. If you can dress yourself, you can learn to build an engine. It's not difficult. A lot of people are intimidated by things like that.

Sure, I agree crate motors are the best choice for some.....and I must admit, if I had the money, I'd probably try one. But I cannot come up with that chunk all at once, so I do it like I have to. A piece at a time until it's done. To me, that makes it even a greater accomplishment, because of our limited budget. For people who have the money to buy a crate engine, they won't ever know what it's like to save up for an oil pump. To cut back on eating out to afford a camshaft and lifter set. So, for me, the accomplishment is two fold. One, I squeezed it out of an already tight budget and two, I built it myself. Yes, I BUILT IT, Obama.
 
Part of what the OP seems to want is to learn how to build engines. At some point, you just gotta dive in. With all the good support on a site like this, it is an ideal spot IMHO.

But since no one here ever mined and smelted the ore and cast the block, crank, rods, pistons, etc., then the message seems to be that we never actually 'built' any engines. LOL
 
I wonder what it takes to get the badge to considered ready to do a rebuild? I feel pretty comfortable about doing one. My only questions are about what pieces parts work best for a street 390 at 7000feet above see level. I guess if you have any decisions that you want opinions on, according to some of the haters here I am not ready... My opinions are very strong and I keep them off the forums. Maybe some folks should do the same...
 
FWIW.... the only things I did before that 1st full rebuild, which was for performance, were changing valve stem seals on a 302, helping with a flathead re-build and a performance Vega build, and swapping out a coupla 4 speeds. That 1st one was a 10.3 SCR 351C with days of hand porting work, grinding out chambers to get to the desired SCR, 1st Gen Torker, 1-7/8" headers, forged pistons, top to bottom rebuild.

Lots of reading ahead of time, lots of questions asked, listened to the guys at the machine shop..... the 1975 equivalent to something like FABO today. Nobody had enough letters to spell 'dyno' and no crate engines like now. Worked fine. Ran that thing for almost 100k miles. So very doable in my humble experience..... I dub thee 'badged' LOL

One thing that is different now: Slow ramp cams back then made the cam break-in issues we seem to see now not much of a problem. Success with flat tappets was a given, just like rollers now.
 
nm9stheham said:
Part of what the OP seems to want is to learn how to build engines. At some point, you just gotta dive in. With all the good support on a site like this, it is an ideal spot IMHO.

But since no one here ever mined and smelted the ore and cast the block, crank, rods, pistons, etc., then the message seems to be that we never actually 'built' any engines. LOL
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It does seem that way, doesn't it?
 
Darter6 said:
Pros and cons all day long. It can be satisfying to do it yourself. But a 318 vs a 408 ? The 408 hands down for sure. Can't beat it for the price.
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RustyRatRod said:
The reward to ME of being able to say "I built it" is FAR better than pulling out the wallet and buying something. I don't give a **** what people say. I will build my own engines. Period.
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I TOTALLY agree with what they both said. Here is my $0.02. About 40 years ago, I had never rebuilt a motor. I had a 65 Corvette I was restoring with a worn out 327. I was on a budget, so I thought I'd try building the motor myself. I bought a copy of "How to Rebuild Your Small Block Chevy", and went to work (after the engine went to the machine shop for machine work). I followed the book CAREFULLY! When I was done, the engine ran great. What a GREAT feeling. Rusty is right. It is really cool to be able to say, "I built the engine myself." I've built many engines since then, including the 340 in my current ride. Buy a copy of "How to Rebuild Your Small Block Mopar" and go for it. But first, you need to decide what your goals are. If you will be happy with a warmed over 318 then do that. If you want more power, or more options in the future, go with a 60. If you go with the 360, you could go with a stroker kit. Decisions, Decisions.
 
I have been looking for a 360, but all the ones in a 100 miles are complete junk. I have driven more miles than I want to to look at completely destroyed la 360s, So I am going 390.

I own several small block mopar books. I have done a lot of work already with the engine. So beyond the normal aftermarket parts woes, I think I will be ok...
 
did you say al heads
evenso the high compression you mention is pretty high even for 7K feet careful dist work will be required
low compression option could be squeezed with some thin head gaskets and be a regular gas motor
cam would be different for each
 
Wyrmrider said:
did you say al heads
evenso the high compression you mention is pretty high even for 7K feet careful dist work will be required
low compression option could be squeezed with some thin head gaskets and be a regular gas motor
cam would be different for each
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I am going with indy LAX heads(cast iron).

I am thinking the same. I think I can squeeze 9.6 SCR out of the +23 CC pistons with squaring the deck and a felpro 1008.
 
What a dilemma!
Hmmmm.........
Crate engine dynoed with a warranty versus build it yourself from scratch (more like buy parts and assemble it yourself after it's machined) with no warranty for roughly the same money............
The same thought process could also go for buying a car finished or nearly finished and then using simple bolt ons to personalize it to your own tastes.
Or do you buy a project car that needs to be totally gone through?
On one side of the coin, (the build it yourself angle) you would have the satisfaction of having your hands dirty from doing it yourself and controlling the entire process. There's a lot to be said about the smiles per gallon you get from knowing intimately the build process and how much work you have in it not to mention the pride of knowing the car ,engine, etc. inside and out.
On the second side of the coin, it may be more practical to buy complete components in pieces and merely turning wrenches to install them on a proven platform.
(We're talking crate engines, car shells sent to a paint shop for a complete paint job, buying a transmission already rebuilt, rear ends that are complete drop ins, interior kits installed at an upholstery shop etc.)
Be honest with yourself, are you willing to invest the money to buy the proper tools to do any of the above projects?
Do you have the facility?
Do you have the skills?
More importantly, do you have the time and patience to learn the skills?

I find that some people on here (and everywhere for that matter) have a solid attitude about one or more of these tasks that go into building a car, but few if any can do a complete car front to back in and out without a problem.
They would state that it's not a good thing to buy a crate engine for example, but would farm out paint and body, buy a complete B&M tranny, or a Strange S-60 to bolt in their car..............

This is by no means directed at anyone in particular, (at all!) but is food for thought..............
Know your limits!
I know i do...............
 
So nobody mentioned but since this is for a STREET application where not every single part in the engine needs to be upgraded or modified... 5.9L Magnum swap? The short blocks are almost always in perfect shape so that saves $1000+ right there and you still get 9.5:1 static comp with stock pistons. Get a pair of EQ heads, carb, intake, cam of your choice, and reuse the rest of the stock stuff... you'll have a 350-ish HP (at least, corrected of course) for wayyy less than either a full rebuild or a crate engine. And you still get your 'feet wet' putting an engine together.

I see you're also in CO, a bit out in the boonies though... I know how the high altitude thing goes btw. You got any junkyards near you at all?
 
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Any engine is only as good as the parts AND workmanship that it takes to make it, period. With the costs pretty much the same, and a dyno results, and guarantee, a crate engine would make sense, IF, like RRR said, the person has the coin for it and buying from someone that is talented, honest and back up his warranty. . Nothing wrong with that anymore than having a machine shop do their part AND have them assemble it, NOT you. If it breaks due to their assembly, they are at fault.
Like restoring a car, a lot of satisfaction going into it, but it is sure nice to sometimes buy a "done" car!!!!
 
MOPEkidD-3 said:
So nobody mentioned but since this is for a STREET application where not every single part in the engine needs to be upgraded or modified... 5.9L Magnum swap? The short blocks are almost always in perfect shape so that saves $1000+ right there and you still get 9.5:1 static comp with stock pistons. Get a pair of EQ heads, carb, intake, cam of your choice, and reuse the rest of the stock stuff... you'll have a 350-ish HP (at least, corrected of course) for wayyy less than either a full rebuild or a crate engine. And you still get your 'feet wet' putting an engine together.

I see you're also in CO, a bit out in the boonies though... I know how the high altitude thing goes btw. You got any junkyards near you at all?
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I am in Elbert Co, which is South East of Denver.

I look on CL here for Magnum and LA motors and there is rarely anything. I have been down to the Springs several times to look and everything was junk. right now there is a 5.2 magnum that needs a complete rebuild for 400! No thanks. I am doing a 390.
 
stumblinhorse said:
I am going with indy LAX heads(cast iron).

I am thinking the same. I think I can squeeze 9.6 SCR out of the +23 CC pistons with squaring the deck and a felpro 1008.
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Just running some numbers on this to see where the 'effective' DCR ends up at your altitude and looking at the alternatives as a 'food for thought' exercise.
- 9.6 SCR is reasonable with some minor decking ( around .010" to .012") and those parts. You will have some quench effect with around .045" piston to head clearance. Cranking compression around 1000' elevation is going to be in the 155 ish range.
- Now put in a small 260 advertised cam with ICA = 58 degrees and work out the effective DCR at 7000': effective DCR = 6.7..... like a stock /6. Cranking pressure is down around 126.... like a stock 318. That 7" loss in atmospheric pressure is dropping the cylinder fill almost 25%. (The combustion process doesn't care what the outside pressure is, just how much fuel-air mixture gets compressed into the cylinder.)

Change to the 5 cc pistons and an advertised cam of 268 (ICA now is around 62).
- SCR is now 11.6.
- Effective DCR is now 8.1 and cranking pressure is 162 or so.

That is a good point at which to limit DCR for pump premium, especially in your dry, cool climate, and I would not blame you for backing off a bit from the latter numbers. But IMHO the 23 cc piston dish is too much for that altitude.

Seems like around 10 cc's dish would be nice for your situation. You could not shave the heads and use a thicker head gasket, but then your quench is gone; I'd try to keep that. Who is that custom piston maker?

IMHO, there's another way to get those extra cc's: I would seriously consider grinding out the EQ head chambers to 66-67 cc's. Whoa, GRIND on my NEW heads!?! LOL But you can polish the chambers as part of that which is another detonation fighter. That drops the SCR and DCR over half a point versus the 5 cc pistons, to around 11.0 and 7.5. And you get to keep the quench. Now you are in a pretty easy spot to tune and run pump fuel with no issues. You can even drive 'down' to Denver with no worries.

I don't recall the planned use for your truck so that would help to know. And of course a turbo with a variable wastegate would work with the 23 cc pistons very nicely... but I suspect you don't want to go there.

Hope this helps.
 
@nm9stheham The pistons are ICON IC847s which are the 23cc. The only other company making 3.94 bore 4.00 stroke piston is diamond. They have some +7cc pistons that might put me under 11 SCR. At CR I am not sure I can run a .04+ head gasket? They all say something about staying under 10.5...

Grind on a new set of heads I would do. But maybe I should try them straight in and see how it goes with the diamond pistons?

Truck is just a driver. I drive it to work a few times a month, 30 miles each way. I go to some shows and drive it to the feed store :). I want it to be strong if I am going to go through a rebuild, since it is not much more money...
 
stumblinhorse said:
I am in Elbert Co, which is South East of Denver.

I look on CL here for Magnum and LA motors and there is rarely anything. I have been down to the Springs several times to look and everything was junk. right now there is a 5.2 magnum that needs a complete rebuild for 400! No thanks. I am doing a 390.
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You're looking in the wrong places then. Forget Co. Springs, if you're up to the physical challenge, hit up the Pull-and-Pay yard over in NW Denver near I-76 and I-70 junction and grab a Magnum yourself. I got a full 5.9L shortblock (with cam and lifters) for $125 from my local self-serve yard in Greeley out of a 2001 Ram 1500 and it needs NO machine work... cylinder bores still have factory cross-hatching and bearings look almost brand new, and the truck it came out of even was beat completely to hell. Just a suggestion, since I've been down the "I want to rebuild it myself" road as well and from experience you can save quite a bit of money if you're smart about gathering good used parts instead of using brand-new everything, especially for just a driver vehicle... JMHO
 
stumblinhorse said:
I am in Elbert Co, which is South East of Denver.

I look on CL here for Magnum and LA motors and there is rarely anything. I have been down to the Springs several times to look and everything was junk. right now there is a 5.2 magnum that needs a complete rebuild for 400! No thanks. I am doing a 390.
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Try an LKQ near you. They will have a 5.9 Magnum and will give you a 6 month warranty as it is. That means it was a good running engine so it will make an excellent core.
 
Do an old school in garage rebuild.... send the heads out, hone the cylinders, reuse the pistons, mic the crank, buy bearings, gaskets and an oil pump. Buy a generic cam and get some lifters. ... ditch the roller rockers (complete waste of $$$ for your application). Millions of engines have been done this way... just did my wife's 4.0 in her Jeep.

You won't spend $1,000 and you will be back on the road.
 
Just my 2 cents but here in Ontario Canada we need to watch it with crate motors or any other engine swaps, what year of block are you using or getting, on our cars if checked by the envio police your emissions need to meet the standards of car or engine YOM, which ever is newer, so if your crate engine is a new or newer block, say 2015 in your 70 Dart, you must meet 2015 emission standards, just food for thought in your area.
 
stumblinhorse said:
I am putting together my plan for a rebuild on my 318 in the fall picking out pistons etc.

It will be a mild street engine. So I am doing a bore and hone, squaring the block etc. New Pistons and heads with roller rockers and new cam/lifters/pushrods.

So my question is all in with me doing all the work it is going to cost me about $3500-4000 to do the rebuild. Machining with balancing is $800, new LAX heads with rockers are $1500. KB 167 +.020 Pistons and rings are $400, New cam, lifters, pushrods, timing chain and gaskets is about another $1000. Then small incidentals, head bolts, fluids total $3500-4k.

I can buy a dressed long block 408 from blueprint for $5000.

I really wanted to rebuild myself, but I am not sure having a mild 318 for 4k is better than a mild 408 for 5k.
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Couple thoughts. Your build mentioned LAX heads and a/m rockers, the base blueprint longblock uses stock magnum heads and rockers. Nothing wrong with that, just not apples to apples. If you wanted to get out on the cheap, a used 5.9 magnum bottom end with the LAX heads, cam, and intake is a 400hp mill the easy way. If you really want to build an engine then do it. We are here to help. Get a 360 core and build it while you still drive the 318. That way your car stays on the road, and you get more bang for your buck.
 
flyfish said:
I like to build my own as well for the same reasons as RRR...nothing wrong with buying a crate motor, but you won't get that deep sense of accomplishment from buying a crate....On another note, since I build my own I also know who to blame when something goes wrong, lol.
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I know who to blame as well- the sorry parts manufacturer. :)
 
I like the 390 idea. There are other odd ball builds you could run around. Maybe run E85 with those higher comp. pistons w/ the 390. But what is wrong with your current 318? If the bottom end is stout then cut up that, build up the compression, mic and run the same pistons, and add big heads. I’m sure you could pull 300-318 hp.

Use the money saved and run EFI any way you know how. I’m only 20 miles south of you and am at 6050’, we have such massive altitude and pressure swings that I really think you’d be satisfied with efi for the start-ability, drive-ability, and overall performance. You want full control of fuel and ignition
 
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