Hesitation/Stall question

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Pumpkinduster

Pumpkinduster

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Hey all after along time coming I have finally been taking the Duster for some test drives and enjoying it. But I have been running into some small issues it started with what I though and still could be a fuel issue.
The motor is a 318 bored .30 over with a 0 deck height with the 302 heads, Comp Cam XE268H, Edelbrock Performer intake with an Edelbrock 1405 carb.
Today I took it out on a good distance drive hit WOT a few times and driving it nice the rest of the time. When coming to a stop I pop it in neutral because it wants to drop the RPMs to low and try to stall. The Transmission is a 904 rebuilt by a local shop with a OEM stall converter. When I got home I was pulling in the driveway and wasn't touching the gas the car died. Fired right back up and pulled up the drive and did the same in the garage. After I parked it I looked at the fuel filter and it pretty much was empty. Is that to be expected?

Typically I would assume the stall converter is the issue since it will try to die as soon as I drop it in reverse or drive and give it no gas. But I have had it stall out and not want to start again after stalling for about 10 minutes of trying to turn it over almost like it is starving for fuel.

Has anyone experience anything like this running an OEM fuel pump with the setup above?
I purchased the Edelbrock Performance pump that is self regulated at 5 or 6 psi, just haven't installed it yet. I am thinking that if my cam is suggesting that a 2000 stall works best this could be the issue, not high enough RPMS when in gear and idling to pump up enough fuel maybe?
Just not sure if I am on the right path.

image0.jpeg
 
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Are those hoses fuel rated?

The following only covers the empty fuel filter

If your fuel filter is running empty you have one or more of a few problems.

  1. Float level
  2. Float sticking
  3. Fuel lines are getting hot enough to vaporize the fuel
  4. The fuel pump is malfunctioning
  5. There are restrictions in the fuel lines
  6. Any of the hoses connecting solid pipe to solid pipe are collapsing
  7. The sock filter on the fuel pickup is clogged
  8. The venting of the gas tank is clogged
  9. There is not enough fuel in the tank
  10. Pickup is bent
  11. The gas cap is non vented and it should be a venting type (I don't know if any A body cars ever used a vented cap)
As for diagnosis...
Start at one end and start checking.
 
Seems odd that it 'fired right back up' if the f/filter was empty.....
I have seen that when the FF is mounted horizontally, it can get an air lock in the upper half...but it is still passing fuel to the carb.

This is a back to basics job.
Remove the carb. Check the transfer slot position [ how much shows below t/blades at idle, should be 0.040" or less ]. Check float level, needle/seats & floats for sticking/binding. Unlike brand H & clones, you will not need any gaskets if you are careful. If you have compressed air, blow out all passages.

Also, the RPM intake is a poor choice. You have a 6500 rpm intake & a 5500 rpm cam....
 
That does not look like fuel line....I would put the garden hose back in the front yard and get some fuel line, then reevaluate (its probably vapor locking).​
 
Too much timing/ not enough Transferslot opening?

Is that dishwasher hose? With the filter touching the hot head?
As long as the hot fuel is under pressure, it tends to stay liquid. But as soon as you shut the pump off, if the valve at either end leaks the pressure down, the hot fuel tends to flash into vapor, and forces the fuel to flow out the leaking end. In the case of a horizontal filter, it will act like a vapor accumulator on whatever portion cannot get out of it. It is IMO, common to see those filters only half full of liquid.
There are many different fuel molecules that make up gasoline. The most volatile ones can flash to vapor at around 90*F. The most stable ones are , IIRC around 395*F.
 
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Pumpkinduster said:
Hey all after along time coming I have finally been taking the Duster for some test drives and enjoying it. But I have been running into some small issues it started with what I though and still could be a fuel issue.
The motor is a 318 bored .30 over with a 0 deck height with the 302 heads, Comp Cam XE268H, Edelbrock RPM intake with an Edelbrock 1405 carb.
Today I took it out on a good distance drive hit WOT a few times and driving it nice the rest of the time. When coming to a stop I pop it in neutral because it wants to drop the RPMs to low and try to stall. The Transmission is a 904 rebuilt by a local shop with a OEM stall converter. When I got home I was pulling in the driveway and wasn't touching the gas the car died. Fired right back up and pulled up the drive and did the same in the garage. After I parked it I looked at the fuel filter and it pretty much was empty. Is that to be expected?

Typically I would assume the stall converter is the issue since it will try to die as soon as I drop it in reverse or drive and give it no gas. But I have had it stall out and not want to start again after stalling for about 10 minutes of trying to turn it over almost like it is starving for fuel.

Has anyone experience anything like this running an OEM fuel pump with the setup above?
I purchased the Edelbrock Performance pump that is self regulated at 5 or 6 psi, just haven't installed it yet. I am thinking that if my cam is suggesting that a 2000 stall works best this could be the issue, not high enough RPMS when in gear and idling to pump up enough fuel maybe?
Just not sure if I am on the right path.

View attachment 1715670350
Click to expand...

You better do somethin about that upper hose fore long.
 
Pumpkinduster said:
I am thinking that if my cam is suggesting that a 2000 stall works best this could be the issue, not high enough RPMS when in gear and idling to pump up enough fuel maybe?
Just not sure if I am on the right path.
Click to expand...
Mechanical Pump operation is dependent on exactly three things; rpm, head, and ability to pull. This assumes the return spring does it's job and keeps the pump arm on the eccentric.
>If yur tank vent stops working, it gets harder and harder for the pump to pull fuel.
> the fuel volume test in the FSM, stipulates a 500 rpm idle speed.
 
Dana67Dart said:
Are those hoses fuel rated?

The following only covers the empty fuel filter

If your fuel filter is running empty you have one or more of a few problems.

  1. Float level
  2. Float sticking
  3. Fuel lines are getting hot enough to vaporize the fuel
  4. The fuel pump is malfunctioning
  5. There are restrictions in the fuel lines
  6. Any of the hoses connecting solid pipe to solid pipe are collapsing
  7. The sock filter on the fuel pickup is clogged
  8. The venting of the gas tank is clogged
  9. There is not enough fuel in the tank
  10. Pickup is bent
  11. The gas cap is non vented and it should be a venting type (I don't know if any A body cars ever used a vented cap)
As for diagnosis...
Start at one end and start checking.
Click to expand...


Thank you for the info, I was planning to pull the carb and check the float this weekend as well as the sock filter and lines.
I don't believe the A body used a vented cap but I will look into that a little more as well. The car was a /6 runner before I swapped the motor so everything from the original setup with tank and lines even the carbon can or vapor can in the engine bay haven't been touched. I did just pull the line from the can last night when I was testing the pump with no spark to see if that made a difference but inconclusive at the time.
 
Bewy said:
Seems odd that it 'fired right back up' if the f/filter was empty.....
I have seen that when the FF is mounted horizontally, it can get an air lock in the upper half...but it is still passing fuel to the carb.

This is a back to basics job.
Remove the carb. Check the transfer slot position [ how much shows below t/blades at idle, should be 0.040" or less ]. Check float level, needle/seats & floats for sticking/binding. Unlike brand H & clones, you will not need any gaskets if you are careful. If you have compressed air, blow out all passages.

Also, the RPM intake is a poor choice. You have a 6500 rpm intake & a 5500 rpm cam....
Click to expand...

Thank you for the info.

I disagree about the intake it is not a 6500 rpm it is an idle to 5500 rpm. This is straight from Edlebrocks specs.

UPC 00085347021765
Series Performer
Gasket Or Seal Included No
Vehicle Model Chrysler
Availability Note Available to Order
Warranty 12 Months
Ec Basic Operating Rpm Range Idle-5500 RPM
 
One of the things you can do is when it happens again, take the gas cap off, and restart. See if it does it again.

If it doesn't happen again this will indicate a plugged vent system.

My dart (273 v8), does a similar thing. When the engine is hot the fuel filter will be full of fuel, you can watch the filter drain, then the engine rpm starts to fall off then the filter starts to refill and the rpm increases. It will do this over and over.

This, I believe, is due to fuel vaporizing in the fuel lines. During the above symptoms the fuel pressure stays in the 5-7 range till the rpm starts to drop off and then goes to about 3-4 as the filter refills and then back to 5-7.

When I drive when it is super hot out and the engine is hotter than normal, the engine will die while accelerating
 
anecdotal;
I run my alloy headed beast at a minimum coolant temp of 205*F, and
I run no header wrap, and
I run no insulation on my fuel lines, and
I'm trying to remember what gasket I slid under the carb..... maybe the about 1/4 inch compressed paper one; IDK, and
I run nothing but 87E10, and
I run an ancient 750DP on an AirGap, and a 230*cam, with a 4-speed.
My 367 has never on the hottest Manitoba summer's day had fuel troubles.To be fair, it rarely gets over 35*C here (which is like 95*F , if my math is right).
The point is this; 87E10 boils easy. If any system could boil, it should be mine......

Here's how I solved my problems; My secret weapons are;
I mounted an aluminum oval air filter housing on the TOP of the hood, over an
air-horn-sized hole in the hood, feeding fresh above-hood air down into the airhorn; with the top of the carb sealed to the hood, and,
I have only a one-piece, hand-formed, 3/8" metal fuel line, from pump to carb. My filter is a large capacity metal EFI can, at the back, and
I have a 68 Barracuda with those neat-O hood inserts. Well, I carved out some holes into the hood under them, and elevated the inserts as high as they would go on the factory studs, about 3/8", to vent the underhood heat when idling stationary, and/or, moving slowly, and
I run 50% water, 50% antifreeze.
IDK if my ideas are worth anything, but I have never, since the day I cut those holes in my hood, had fuel boiling issues. In fact, the carb is so stable that I can electronically retard the timing from the drivers seat to 5*, and idle around the fairgrounds, at 500/550 rpm, which is ~3.9 mph, all afternoon, on hard level flat ground, on the hottest days. If you try this; you will probably need a hi-flow waterpump and matching stat, and a 7 blade, all steel, hi-efficiency Mopar fan. Mine is on a Thermostatic clutch from an early 2000s Ford pick-up truck. Your results may vary, lol.
anecdotalchit
 
Pumpkinduster said:
Thank you for the info.

I disagree about the intake it is not a 6500 rpm it is an idle to 5500 rpm. This is straight from Edlebrocks specs.

UPC 00085347021765
Series Performer
Gasket Or Seal Included No
Vehicle Model Chrysler
Availability Note Available to Order
Warranty 12 Months
Ec Basic Operating Rpm Range Idle-5500 RPM
Click to expand...

Regardless of which intake you have, those numbers are simply a generic guide. Do you think the intake is gonna make the engine stop pulling at 5500? hardly.It all depends on the rest of your combination.
 
Dana67Dart said:
Look at post 12. Look familiar?
1967 Dart 273 2bbl odd fuel delivery issue at idle
Click to expand...
Yeah that is starting to make more sense because I have only had it no want to start again after it has been heated for a bit. Granted his video he still had more fuel in the filter then I did.

I did just check it and sure enough the filter is completely full now that all has settled and cold. So maybe I will try to find a way to shield or deflect the heat from the filter and see what the results are after that.
 
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