High Charging Rate. Found Voltage Drop Need Guidance Please

[HiPoVALIANT]

The car is a ’65 Valiant with Mopar electronic ignition Distributor and ECU. 2 pole ballast.

Warm idle the charging rate is 14.8-14.9. At RPM is bouncing >15 but < 16.

The blue wire to the regulator receives battery voltage from the ignition side of the ballast resistor.

Battery at rest= 12.6

Ignition on RUN:

Battery= 12.4

Ballast Resistor Ignition Side= 11.6

Ballast Resistor Run Side= 5.4

Regulator Blue Wire= 11.6 (Does explain the over charging condition!)

I pulled the connector to the ballast resistor ignition side. Battery voltage at the connector wire is 12.35 and 12.35 at the regulator connector wire.

When I reconnect to the ballast resistor the voltage drop is again evident at both the ballast and of course the regulator.

I installed a new ballast resistor. No change to readings.

The only modification to the wiring is the addition of a third wire within the ballast ignition side connector that routes to the ECU.

I would appreciate any help/guidance from the FABO electrical gurus.

 

[KitCarlson]

I am guessing for tests when ignition in run, motor is not running. Test with engine running, should give about 13.8 V at IGN terminal, same at ballast high side. The 12.4 - 11.6 = 0.8 V undesired drop, so battery voltage 13.8 + 0.8 = 14.6 or more, since drop increases with other loads.

Perhaps others can suggests fixing drops on a 65.

 

[Mattax]

Also
use aligator clips and see if the voltage at the regulator drops or increases with higher rpms.

To hunt for the voltage drop.
While running, measure the voltage between regulator ground (attaching screw) and the battery neg post. This would show bad ground connections.
Then measure voltage between alternator batt stud and regulator feed (blue). This shows poor feed connection (most likely the biggest issue).
I think '65 may have ring terminal connection at the bulkhead for the alternator feed. But whatever it the connection is, find it, and measure the voltage drop to it.
Do the same the same for the ignition feed (run) coming out of the bulkhead connector. You'll need a probe to slip in there.

 

[HiPoVALIANT]

Also
use aligator clips and see if the voltage at the regulator drops or increases with higher rpms.

To hunt for the voltage drop.
While running, measure the voltage between regulator ground (attaching screw) and the battery neg post. This would show bad ground connections.
Then measure voltage between alternator batt stud and regulator feed (blue). This shows poor feed connection (most likely the biggest issue).
I think '65 may have ring terminal connection at the bulkhead for the alternator feed. But whatever it the connection is, find it, and measure the voltage drop to it.
Do the same the same for the ignition feed (run) coming out of the bulkhead connector. You'll need a probe to slip in there.

@Mattax

Thanks for the input. Before I do this I just want to clarify that in my overview post my reference to "Ignition on RUN' meant key on, but not running. Did you take it as that? If you assumed the engine was running would just a "key on" status change your guidance or perspective?

 

[Mattax]

@Mattax

Thanks for the input. Before I do this I just want to clarify that in my overview post my reference to "Ignition on RUN' meant key on, but not running. Did you take it as that? If you assumed the engine was running would just a "key on" status change your guidance or perspective?

Yes. I figured the same as Kit did.
A 0.8 Volt drop with just ignition and rotor drawing power is a lot.

There could be resistance in several locations or just one since voltage was high with engine running.

 

[KitCarlson]

There is a voltage drop regardless of engine running or not. The engine running, and measuring IGN, blue wire at regulator gives information on how regulator is working. The 13.8V is good at about 70F, it goes up a few tenths at colder temperatures. The alternator output is electrically closer to battery, any drop raises battery voltage above regulated value at IGN.

 

[HiPoVALIANT]

Yes. I figured the same as Kit did.
A 0.8 Volt drop with just ignition and rotor drawing power is a lot.

There could be resistance in several locations or just one since voltage was high with engine running.

@Mattax

Like many of us vehicle electricity is not a possessed skill set of mine. How long can I run the engine with battery charging unregulated? Reason I am asking is that I am currently running a MoPar Blue 3690732 regulator. When hooked up the ignition connection is closed and can't be probed. In order to do some of your recommended tests I would have to disconnect the regulator to access the ignition input. Your thoughts?

I have ordered a stock (solid state) regulator with an open spade type ignition connection. I should have it in a few days. Perhaps I should just wait and get it installed before carrying on. Assuming running unregulated is a problem. Thanks again!

 

[Mattax]

Lets go over the reason for voltage drops.

Here's a simple circuit with a 12 volt battery.

12 Volts is the potential across the battery.

Now lets look at the flow paths.
Two paths exist for electrons to flow. One through the small lamp, and one through the electromagnet.
If each draws 2 amps, then 4 amps flows from the battery positive, and 4 amps flows back into the battery negative post.
No current flows through the large lamp.

Poor connections create resistance to flow. In fact we could replace each poor connection with the symbol for resistance.
The voltage drops indicate resistance to flow.
Using the same example, notice the voltage drops through each resistance in the current path,
and no voltage drops across the resistance where current is not flowing.

Sometimes its easier or more useful to measure voltage drops directly, rather than referencing ground.
More true if ground path has resistance.
using the above example.

 

[KitCarlson]

You measured the high side of ballast, and got 11.4V. Same as IGN terminal of regulator. Measure that with engine running, increase engine speed some, early alternators may not reach regulation at idle. If voltage is around 13.8V regulator is good. Replacing will not help over voltage.

I think your battery seems soft already. Hot weather, 15V at battery will spew acid, and sulfates plates.

 

[Mattax]

@Mattax

Like many of us vehicle electricity is not a possessed skill set of mine. How long can I run the engine with battery charging unregulated? Reason I am asking is that I am currently running a MoPar Blue 3690732 regulator. When hooked up the ignition connection is closed and can't be probed. In order to do some of your recommended tests I would have to disconnect the regulator to access the ignition input. Your thoughts?

I have ordered a stock (solid state) regulator with an open spade type ignition connection. I should have it in a few days. Perhaps I should just wait and get it installed before carrying on. Assuming running unregulated is a problem. Thanks again!

First part. If the alternator output is around 14.8 Volts, I don't think anything will be hurt. Its when the voltage is above 15 Volts that I get concerned.

Second part. This one. Back probe into the connector as shown with arrow.

Then do the same at the ballast resistor connector. That's where the dark blue wire comes from. Inside the ballast resistor connector that wire is joined with a crimp.

I've had the P3690732 do some flakey regulation similar to what you are describing. But start with looking for resistance. That's the first problem to solve. On my '67 Barracuda, the ignition feed wire on my replacement harness had a poor crimp inside the ballast resistor connector. I've posted some pictures of that. See below

 

[Mattax]

There is one variable not mentioned so far, but Kit's caution about the battery reminded me.
When the engine was running and the voltage fluctuating, did you notice what was the ammeter showing?
If the battery is drawing a lot of current, that will increase voltage drops on the feed lines.

 

[HiPoVALIANT]

You measured the high side of ballast, and got 11.4V. Same as IGN terminal of regulator. Measure that with engine running, increase engine speed some, early alternators may not reach regulation at idle. If voltage is around 13.8V regulator is good. Replacing will not help over voltage.

I think your battery seems soft already. Hot weather, 15V at battery will spew acid, and sulfates plates.

@KitCarlson

Thanks much for your input. Nothing showing at the battery......yet. I am concerned though and won't be driving the car until I get all this stabilized.

 

[Mattax]

Underneath the plastic connector covers are the wire terminals.

Shown above is good crimp.
Shown below is an incorrect crimp, and over time it become problematic. This contributed to voltage drop on the way to the regulator.

Replaced and crimped with a Chrysler style terminal.

 

[HiPoVALIANT]

There is one variable not mentioned so far, but Kit's caution about the battery reminded me.
When the engine was running and the voltage fluctuating, did you notice what was the ammeter showing?
If the battery is drawing a lot of current, that will increase voltage drops on the feed lines.

@Mattax

My ammeter is no longer accurate. I am running crackedback's "wire around" to take some of the load off the bulkhead. Installing that wire is why I then installed a voltmeter and crapped when I saw the high voltage. Likely not a new development yet the battery is 10 years old and seems fine? Gotta leave the car now to go out. I'll do the tests both you and KitCarson have recommended tomorrow and advise. Really appreciate your guidance.

 

[HiPoVALIANT]

Underneath the plastic connector covers are the wire terminals.
View attachment 1715371697
Shown above is good crimp.
Shown below is an incorrect crimp, and over time it become problematic. This contributed to voltage drop on the way to the regulator.
View attachment 1715371698

Replaced and crimped with a Chrysler style terminal.
View attachment 1715371699

@Mattax

Interesting thanks. Excuse my ignorance but do the plastic covers open up for removal/reinstall? I'll definitely be checking out the ballast ignition terminal. I'm suspicious about the wire added for the ECU. Are the Chrysler style terminals readily available?

 

[Mattax]

I don't see an issue with running the tests. 5- 10 minutes run time. If you see voltage following rpm, keep the rpms down.
If you want to run some drop tests with engine off, you can check the run circuit, and the battery feed. You won't be able to check the alternator feed.
When you're done put the battery on a slow charger.

I don't know how you executed your wire around. If nothing was disconnected, then ammeter discharge is probably correct, but battery charge will show nothing.
For voltage drop checks, follow both paths. Makes tracking a little more complicated. But in both cases should end up at the ignition run wire. So maybe start there.

Ten years is a long time on a battery. Your doing good. A load test or an acidity test will show how much capacity it has left.

 

[Mattax]

@Mattax

Interesting thanks. Excuse my ignorance but do the plastic covers open up for removal/reinstall? I'll definitely be checking out the ballast ignition terminal. I'm suspicious about the wire added for the ECU. Are the Chrysler style terminals readily available?

Depressing the barb on the back of the terminal releases them.
Yes Chrysler terminals are available. If you have original harness and conectors, thats what you want.
If you have a repop harness, it may have packard 56 terminals and connectors. If so, that's what you'll need.
Sources for Chrysler type wire terminals

 

[HiPoVALIANT]

Depressing the barb on the back of the terminal releases them.
Yes Chrysler terminals are available. If you have original harness and conectors, thats what you want.
If you have a repop harness, it may have packard 56 terminals and connectors. If so, that's what you'll need.
Sources for Chrysler type wire terminals

@Mattax

I didn't get near the car today (house priorities). Hopefully tomorrow. Nice professional crimp shown in the pics you sent. What kind of crimper do you use? I have a good Klein T1715 that handles closed insulated terminals and butt joins but not sure that it will do the job on the Chrysler open barrel terminals.

 

[67Dart273]

One way around this is to install a Bosch type relay that's available at about any parts store to relieve the strain on the ignition switch. Find the blue "igntion run" wire coming out of the bulkhead. That is what feeds your VR and ignition system. (On newer cars, some other loads as well) That wire IS NOT fused

Cut the wire at some place you have or can make a little slack. Feed the blue wire coming out of the bulkhead to the trigger / coil on the relay. Ground the other coil lead of the relay. CHECK that there is not a diode in the relay, if it is, it will be polarity sensitive which one you ground.

Next you have power into the relay contacts, you can get that with a fuse/ breaker off the start relay, and to your new relay.


Last connect the "engine bay side" of the cut blue wire to the loads contact on the relay.

As above, ground 85, run 86 to the blue wire from the interior through the bulkhead

Supply fused power to terminal 30 from the starter relay

Connect 87 to the "engine side" of the cut blue wire

 

[HiPoVALIANT]

One way around this is to install a Bosch type relay that's available at about any parts store to relieve the strain on the ignition switch. Find the blue "igntion run" wire coming out of the bulkhead. That is what feeds your VR and ignition system. (On newer cars, some other loads as well) That wire IS NOT fused

Cut the wire at some place you have or can make a little slack. Feed the blue wire coming out of the bulkhead to the trigger / coil on the relay. Ground the other coil lead of the relay. CHECK that there is not a diode in the relay, if it is, it will be polarity sensitive which one you ground.

Next you have power into the relay contacts, you can get that with a fuse/ breaker off the start relay, and to your new relay.


Last connect the "engine bay side" of the cut blue wire to the loads contact on the relay.
View attachment 1715372210

@67dart73

Thanks!! I have a questionable connection at the BR that might be the problem. I'll first see how I make out with that repaired. Your relay suggestion will certainly be the fix if the issue is elsewhere in the blue wire.

As above, ground 85, run 86 to the blue wire from the interior through the bulkhead

Supply fused power to terminal 30 from the starter relay

Connect 87 to the "engine side" of the cut blue wire

 

[HiPoVALIANT]

One way around this is to install a Bosch type relay that's available at about any parts store to relieve the strain on the ignition switch. Find the blue "igntion run" wire coming out of the bulkhead. That is what feeds your VR and ignition system. (On newer cars, some other loads as well) That wire IS NOT fused

Cut the wire at some place you have or can make a little slack. Feed the blue wire coming out of the bulkhead to the trigger / coil on the relay. Ground the other coil lead of the relay. CHECK that there is not a diode in the relay, if it is, it will be polarity sensitive which one you ground.

Next you have power into the relay contacts, you can get that with a fuse/ breaker off the start relay, and to your new relay.


Last connect the "engine bay side" of the cut blue wire to the loads contact on the relay.
View attachment 1715372210



As above, ground 85, run 86 to the blue wire from the interior through the bulkhead

Supply fused power to terminal 30 from the starter relay

Connect 87 to the "engine side" of the cut blue wire

@67Dart273

Thanks!! I have a questionable connection at the BR that might be the problem. I'll first see how I make out with that repaired. Your relay suggestion will certainly be the fix if the issue is elsewhere in the blue wire.

 

[Mattax]

@Mattax

I didn't get near the car today (house priorities). Hopefully tomorrow. Nice professional crimp shown in the pics you sent. What kind of crimper do you use? I have a good Klein T1715 that handles closed insulated terminals and butt joins but not sure that it will do the job on the Chrysler open barrel terminals.

I hear ya. I'm often juggling stuff.

I think for that particular crimp I used American Wire's copy of the old Packard crimpers. Took two tries - a strand ended up outside the crimp on the first go 'round. Oops. Not cheap, but decided it was worth having them. Double and Single Crimper - Splice Clip - Tools - American Autowire We Make Wiring THAT Easy!
Most of the time I've been using Astro's ratchet crimper with interchangable jaws. I really like it. It crimps the insulation and wire at the same time.

But as JoeSBP found with a different version, the jaws are little too wide for male terminals.
See here: Proper use of old style hand crimpers
I'm sure there are other crimpers just as good, and it sounds like the interchangeable jaws may be redundant to what you already own.

 

[HiPoVALIANT]

One way around this is to install a Bosch type relay that's available at about any parts store to relieve the strain on the ignition switch. Find the blue "igntion run" wire coming out of the bulkhead. That is what feeds your VR and ignition system. (On newer cars, some other loads as well) That wire IS NOT fused

Cut the wire at some place you have or can make a little slack. Feed the blue wire coming out of the bulkhead to the trigger / coil on the relay. Ground the other coil lead of the relay. CHECK that there is not a diode in the relay, if it is, it will be polarity sensitive which one you ground.

Next you have power into the relay contacts, you can get that with a fuse/ breaker off the start relay, and to your new relay.


Last connect the "engine bay side" of the cut blue wire to the loads contact on the relay.
View attachment 1715372210

@Mattax @67Dart273

Just chiming in to let you guys know that I haven't bailed. I wanted to have some PICO stuff on hand before getting back to it. I live in a fairly remote small town and struck out, no PICO distributors anywhere in the greater area! Steve (4spdragtop) is helping me out and I should have next week.

I have a question about the Relay solution proposed if I need to go that route. Is 11.6V in the blue ignition wire adequate to trigger the relay? I have a Bosch relay with 2 power outs (87A 87B). I'm thinking 87A to ignition side of ballast and 87B direct to the regulator. ??

Thanks for your help so far.

 

[HiPoVALIANT]

@Mattax
@67Dart273

Screwed up my last post. Here it is again.

Just chiming in to let you guys know that I haven't bailed. I wanted to have some PICO stuff on hand before getting back to it. I live in a fairly remote small town and struck out, no PICO distributors anywhere in the greater area! Steve (4spdragtop) is helping me out and I should have next week.

I have a question about the Relay solution proposed if I need to go that route. Is 11.6V in the blue ignition wire adequate to trigger the relay? I have a Bosch relay with 2 power outs (87A 87B). I'm thinking 87A to ignition side of ballast and 87B direct to the regulator. ??

Thanks for your help so far.

 

[67Dart273]

^^There are variations in some relays so be careful. The "usual" bosch is call spdt which means "single pole" which is one switch/ contacts set, and "double throw" which means a center contact engages one of two contacts, one at rest (no coil power or normally closed) and one when powered (center contact engages normally open contact)

Also many of these relays have an internal anti-spike diode so the coil is polarity sensitive or you will blow up the diode or damage the control wiring

So ground 85 or run it through a hidden switch to ground and that will create a SIMPLE ANTI THEFT device.

Connect 86 to the "ignition run power" coming out of the bulkhead connector

Connect 30 to power through a big fuse or circuit breaker say 20-30A coming from your starter relay "big stud"

Connect 87 to the underhood loads

THE GLITCH BE CAREFUL!!!!

Most relays, you want to leave 87A UNconnected.

But some relays have 87 and 87A in parallel for more current. The ones I have see have special larger terminals and are "obvious" this way as well as having a diagram on the relay indicating such.