moper
Well-Known Member
Yup. You can always use solids where hydraulics of the same design were used. Going the other way can prove problematic tho.
Hughes "retro fit" lifter not pumping up!
- Thread starter mullinax95
- Start date
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I took mine to the shop and used a rubber tip blower to see if I came up with similar results as Mullinax95...similar but not the same. There was 1 where the airflow was reduced quite a bit but still moved a good amount of air. It seemed as though some had more flow than others so it looks like there are varying machining tolerances. I'm gonna run em...If I don't like em I'm gonna jerk em and go solid like I mentioned earlier.
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
Got the new lifters from Hughes and got the engine back together. Took the new lifters and blew air through them before installing them. Air came out of the oil hole. Got the engine running and everything sounds good. No ticking or any unusual noises.
Now to do a good tune on the engine and see what she does.
Now to do a good tune on the engine and see what she does.
i can't get any set of flat tappet lifters to hold over night , even without rocker arm load . some will hold pressure , never the same bore . get i got to go one good one at a time . i've got a bench full of lifters , here goes day by day . pulled the plugs so it rotates easy with the start , turn it over with the starter until i get pressure up lifters , then a few more to keep it there . and come back a day later and check them for piston plunge , keep the ones that hold . and replace the rest . start it again . anyone know a better way ? please tell me . and no the customer wants a quite motor the start without any rattles . even after a month or more of setting . its just a clean driver , i want the same thing for him . it just a 340 la block and heads , nothing trick , just well dome .
I'm about 2 weeks away. Will be interesting to see what happens with the retros. I'll post my results here too. What rig is your motor going in. Do you plan on running it on a Dyno??? our engines are similar other than compression and mine will be running a Fitech 600 power adder but normally aspirated. It will be interesting to see the power of both engines... I'm sure yours will pull more than mine...I'm limited on flow with my indys compared to your eddys. Not interested in competition, just interested for future reference one motor head to another.
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Sounds like all your lifters are working properly. they all will bleed down over night.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
The above comment has me scratching my head..... I have had very hydraulics not bleed down overnight' especially 'back in the old days', it seemed to never happen. At least not that I have ever detected....and my hearing was quite good 'back in the old days' LOL
What oil weight is being used? Lighter oils seem to be more of a problem.
Sounds like you need to set up a test stand and apply about 1.5 times the open spring pressure to each lifter after manually pumping up. Perhaps come up with a technique with a dial indicator to see how much they bleed down in an hour, or some other fixed time frame.
What oil weight is being used? Lighter oils seem to be more of a problem.
Sounds like you need to set up a test stand and apply about 1.5 times the open spring pressure to each lifter after manually pumping up. Perhaps come up with a technique with a dial indicator to see how much they bleed down in an hour, or some other fixed time frame.
Sounds right to me...I thought that when a lifter on the lobe is in the valve closed position the check is in a position to allow oil into the bottom compression chamber. The compression chamber is sealed when the lobe comes around and begins to lift the lifter...pushing the ball back onto it's seat and retaining pressure in the chamber. Normal leak down comes from the pressure chamber back to the reservoir between the plunger and internal lifter body bore. If my understanding is correct, I would assume they should leak down with the engine off.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Once the valve is closed on the seat, there is no more pressure on the pushrod and the lifter's piston to push any oil back out. There should be a light spring in the lifter under the piston to keep the pushrod's weight supported. So, lifters in the closed valve position (on the heel of the lobe) should not leak down at all.
File:Hydraulic Lifter.jpg
With open pressure, the check ball and the tolerance of the piston to the body are all I know of that keeps the oil in the lower chamber. With the machining issues that the OP has run across, the machining tolerances and finish seem the be prime suspects.
File:Hydraulic Lifter.jpg
With open pressure, the check ball and the tolerance of the piston to the body are all I know of that keeps the oil in the lower chamber. With the machining issues that the OP has run across, the machining tolerances and finish seem the be prime suspects.
Yup, I agree. But shouldn't the passage back to the reservoir allow pressure to bleed off? That doesn't mean the pressure chamber is emptied...just equalized? I would think there should still be oil in there to be compressed at the next startup.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
I think I see what you mean.....if you are talking about the lifters that are on the heel of the lobe when the engine stops. Yes, the running oil pressure would 'bleed off' from the chamber at the bottom. But oil is an incompressible liquid, and the amount of volume 'bled off' to lower the pressure to 0 when not running is infinitesimally tiny, and the lifter is still 'pumped up'.
A lifter that is up on the toe of the lobe when the engine stops sees the open spring pressure pushing back through the pushrod. If the open spring pressure was 250 lbs for example, with a 1.5 rocker ratio, the pushrod is pushing down on the plunger with about 375 lbs of force. Just making a wild stab at the typical diameter of the plunger as being maybe 0.4" (I am in a motel and they won't give me a Mopar lifter to measure!), that would result in almost 3000 psi on that oil in the lifter's bottom chamber at rest....!!!
Yeah, I guess that the machining and check ball seal needs to be pretty good. That is making my head spin......
A lifter that is up on the toe of the lobe when the engine stops sees the open spring pressure pushing back through the pushrod. If the open spring pressure was 250 lbs for example, with a 1.5 rocker ratio, the pushrod is pushing down on the plunger with about 375 lbs of force. Just making a wild stab at the typical diameter of the plunger as being maybe 0.4" (I am in a motel and they won't give me a Mopar lifter to measure!), that would result in almost 3000 psi on that oil in the lifter's bottom chamber at rest....!!!
Yeah, I guess that the machining and check ball seal needs to be pretty good. That is making my head spin......
well i'm back with the seal powers lifters , i agree that there is some bleed off , but not enough that i can plunge the lifter spring with my finger , yes just hand pressure . but it just they need to bed in , that seems to be a term thrown around with the lifter guys , so this set is the closed that i've pumped up . just for kicks , i started over with the johnson . did some tests pumping them up , they come up , and down just as fast , but i noted a few rock hard ones , these brand new out of the box set , had stuck ones . topped out would not bung . ya qa looks at them all . so never buy johnson made anything , so those guys we won't deal with their junk . they were king at one time , now their crap . oh engineering and the design always works on paper everytime , it the machinist that f....it up time n time again , right . lol .
All i know is that when i would pull my valve cover off the next day, valves that were on there lobes had collapsed. Ss in, the lift at the spring had been reduced. NOT that the valve train was loose, just that the spring pressure was reduced.
No clatter at start up...........which is why i made my statement above.
And these were Mother Mopar Hyd Lifters of 10 years ago.
No clatter at start up...........which is why i made my statement above.
And these were Mother Mopar Hyd Lifters of 10 years ago.
I've had the valve covers off and after turning off the motor I can watch the lifters bleed off of a lifted valve with a dial indicator after several minutes. Comp hydro flat lifters with an xe268h. No lifter tick at all and the 318 goes like hell.
i've got motors that run daily , no rattle , some can sit for months , no rattle . but this 340 nothing cam and springs , has rattled since fresh start up , after a nights rest , drive it all day with starts , through out the day , not a rattle once . i do understand when spring pressures are out rages , but i've run motors with super high spring pressures that killed lubes on cams , yet never rattled the lifters from setting over night .
Ok i know i'm going to start a pissing match here, but. A lifter that take several minutes to bleed down and one that hold over night will make 0 Difference in HP, IMHO. Even if it took only 5 sec to bleed .010" off!
The lifter get it opportunity to fill or re fill itself EVERY rotation............How much time does the lifter have to bleed of at say 6000 rpm???? 6000 rpm divided by 2 =3000 rpm(Round Per Minute) divided by 60 =50
aka 50 times per SECOND......not much time to bleed off lift.
The lifter get it opportunity to fill or re fill itself EVERY rotation............How much time does the lifter have to bleed of at say 6000 rpm???? 6000 rpm divided by 2 =3000 rpm(Round Per Minute) divided by 60 =50
aka 50 times per SECOND......not much time to bleed off lift.
sorry , not shooting further . but these are even holding pressure without a load on them . i've never had this issue before . but these seal power summit supplied single lifters might be the closes to building a set . just sad that the world can't build lifters to work right off , and china is going to build jet aircraft airplanes for use in world wide , well time to go get a house outside of a flight path , lol . china crap falling from the sky too .
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
No pissing match from me LOL. I thought PM's issues was the lifters bleeding off after shut down and the customer not liking that it started up with a ticking.
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
OK... couldn't go back and edit one of my posts.
However if one is going to run Hughes retro roller lifters take each one and blow compressed air into the lifter through the plunger. If air blows through the lifter and comes out the oil hole then the lifter is good. Just what I have experienced is to be the case. Happy moparing.
However if one is going to run Hughes retro roller lifters take each one and blow compressed air into the lifter through the plunger. If air blows through the lifter and comes out the oil hole then the lifter is good. Just what I have experienced is to be the case. Happy moparing.
moper
Well-Known Member
Glad it's fixed Marland!
well this set of hyd lifters are pumping down , but at the least the springs in them are keeping the pushrod tight in place , still can plunge some of them and not others at all . seems their going to be rattley on overnight as well . but i'm not getting paid on this issue , this is on the cuff . even my cam grinder that set up me with these said , '' no more '' . so i'll keep me fingers cross , and hope they '' bed in ''. oh and this guy wants no noise vavle train , rhoads ad says '' solids like sound at low rpm ''. not what he wants , may end up installing a hyd roller set up . factory chrysler type hyd rollers fit in the block between the head n lifter bores . but the push rod doesn't clear the hole in the head for the push rod , so i'd be peeling in more then just lifters . this sucks .
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
Yeah I finally got it running. I'm talking to B3RE on getting my valve train up to standards. Got old type Comp Cam roller rockers right now.
moper
Well-Known Member
Unless there's a problem with the sweep there's no reason to. $.02
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