Hughes "retro fit" lifter not pumping up!

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70wayfarer said:
i'm pretty sure these lifters are manufactured by Morel.
i got a set of these and a custom grind cam from Hughes for my 360/410 stroker. one of a pair of lifters was .020" larger on the od and would not go into the bore. contacted them be email and they sent a replacement right out. next problem was they were noisy. have tried more preload, less preload and everything in between but still noisy. am pulling them out and going back to solid FT.
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DAAAMMMMMNNNN..... see .... I don't think I'm out of the woods yet with these lifters.


replicaracer43 said:
Hughes didn't manufacturer those lifters, he just sells them....he IS replacing them, "making them good" he just wasn't interested in having a long drawn out conversation about a defective part. **** happens, he's making it good. I don't see anything to cry about here.
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Well... I haven't tinkered with engines since 06 .... so I didn't realize that engine parts have went to ****. Guess I'm used to putting a engine together... crank it up... and away we go. Not having to tear the engine down again.:BangHead:

Glad I'm building this for myself and not a running a business to where I have to explain to the customer the issue, having their car here at the shop taking up space, take up one of my service bays, tear it back down, move it out of my service bay, wait for the parts, parts arrive... same deal over again.... and now the customer is trying his best to make it on time to cruise in night. :(

I guess I'm crying over spilt milk sure enough. It could be worse. Like mentioned however.... I hope these lifters start working out instead of giving me more grief.
 
I dont know if this will make sense to you but consider it........I just recently bought a set of PRW 3244012 roller rockers from Barnett Performance, like 500 dollars, for my 440 build, they arrived, the box was thrown into another box, **** scattered everywhere and looked like they were either used or a display counter set.

E-mailed Barnett ( cause it was too early to call ) got a response back ( almost immediately ) as if basically Im a liar, they packaged them properly, they were never used and how dare I make the accusations that they did anything but perfect, not what I was expecting!

Called PRW, spoke with a pleasant guy named .....I cant remember, tech support guy, I laid out the 40-60 little parts and sent him a picture, turned out parts were missing but this guy offered ( and did ) send the missing parts for free.

Called Barnett, guy I spoke with said guy I was communicating with via e-mail had the day off, I said sooo he still answering e-mails on his day off? Just another lye I knew.

Long story short its not in my opinion a slap against the company so much, if their is a MR. Barnett than than Im sure he wouldnt have let this happen when he was the little guy just starting out his company any more than the Hughes head chief woudnt have either, if they ran their business like that back then then they wouldnt be in business today. ........Just like 440 source customer service and whoever else I typically bash online.

Im learning that I just need to get over it and if I do ever decide to order with them expect not the greatest outcome.....that their might be problems and they simply are not gonna care.

If I stop buying from everyone that gives me bad service Ill end up only able to build flat stock stuff and deal with Napa all the time and Ill say even they suck alot of times nowadays.

On a lighter note a shout out to summit. They still have given me nothing but the best service, they just accepted a 440 camshaft Ive had since 6/28 of last year, charged me a 10% restocking fee but I just the fact that they took it back was nice.

BTW Jegs sucks :)
 
1930 said:
I dont know if this will make sense to you but consider it........I just recently bought a set of PRW 3244012 roller rockers from Barnett Performance, like 500 dollars, for my 440 build, they arrived, the box was thrown into another box, **** scattered everywhere and looked like they were either used or a display counter set.

E-mailed Barnett ( cause it was too early to call ) got a response back ( almost immediately ) as if basically Im a liar, they packaged them properly, they were never used and how dare I make the accusations that they did anything but perfect, not what I was expecting!

Called PRW, spoke with a pleasant guy named .....I cant remember, tech support guy, I laid out the 40-60 little parts and sent him a picture, turned out parts were missing but this guy offered ( and did ) send the missing parts for free.

Called Barnett, guy I spoke with said guy I was communicating with via e-mail had the day off, I said sooo he still answering e-mails on his day off? Just another lye I knew.

Long story short its not in my opinion a slap against the company so much, if their is a MR. Barnett than than Im sure he wouldnt have let this happen when he was the little guy just starting out his company any more than the Hughes head chief woudnt have either, if they ran their business like that back then then they wouldnt be in business today. ........Just like 440 source customer service and whoever else I typically bash online.

Im learning that I just need to get over it and if I do ever decide to order with them expect not the greatest outcome.....that their might be problems and they simply are not gonna care.

If I stop buying from everyone that gives me bad service Ill end up only able to build flat stock stuff and deal with Napa all the time and Ill say even they suck alot of times nowadays.

On a lighter note a shout out to summit. They still have given me nothing but the best service, they just accepted a 440 camshaft Ive had since 6/28 of last year, charged me a 10% restocking fee but I just the fact that they took it back was nice.

BTW Jegs sucks :)
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have had good service from jegs and summit , myself.
 
well thats what i'm about to try now . but they have piss holes in the top , hope they work this time , i'm going to WEAROUT the threads in these heads . never have i had so many issues with lifters , and this thing is just a driver , no big anything . 850 idle to 5k smooth good power . pull the timing out of it , should run on 87 oc gas .
 
mullinax95 said:
Good day gents.... I just installed a Hughes roller cam into my 360 and one of the lifters is failing to pump up. The lifters that I'm talking about are these Hughes Lifters. I have gave Hughes a call and told them the problem.
The response was "There might be a spec of debris inside the lifter that will not allow it to pump up. Lifters are notorious for collecting debris on initial fire up engine that has been disassembled".
I realize anything can happen but all the lifters are pumping up except one. With the problems of debris and so forth in engine building I try to my upmost power to keep everything clean.
So... I removed the intake and head. I have Eddy heads and pulling these long *** lifters out without removing the head is impossible. Pulled the lifters out (two lifters connected with link bar)and cleaned them with brake cleaner and compressed air. The "good" lifter will allow air to blow through the oil hole that stays down inside the lifter bore but the "bad" lifter will not. These are oil through lifters so blowing air through the plunger into the lifter body. I would assume like most parts of a engine that if one part is doing (a) then the other part should do (a) as well. Took the lifter completely apart and did not see a spec of anything in the lifter. To be frank there is not alot to these lifters internally. Cleaned everything .... rebuilt the lifter and still no air blowing through the oil hole like it does in the good lifter.
This is very strange. Unless the lifter body is not machined correctly I don't have a clue what the problem could be.
Now one thing I have not gotten around to doing is submerging the lifter in oil and pumping it up manually. But upon my beliefs at this point if the good lifter has air blowing through the oil hole and the bad lifter doesn't then I will be wasting my time. I will however submerge/pump up the lifter just for the hell of it. If the lifter pumps up being submerged in oil then who is to say that it will pump up again inside the engine after it has bleed down? Think it would be OK?

Going to give Hughes a call Monday. I can imagine what they are going to tell me but trying to warranty the two lifters connected by link bar. There is only three scenarios that will most likely happen. (a) they will warranty the lifter (b) I will have to buy another lifter because I "damaged" it or used it so now it's my fault. (c) Hughes will not warranty the lifter or sell an individual lifter because they do not want to break up a whole set. This is a $400 set of lifters.
If the answer is (c) I will go past "coming loose" to totally "unglued" in about 5 secs.
The purpose of this thread is to get your opinion what could be wrong and also let everyone know how Hughes customer service handles this situation.
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Just wondering,, did you clearance the Eddy head for the push rods. I'm going thru that right now. My valve train was noisy. I had to take the engine apart because I feel the machine shop left trash from machining in the block. Wore the main bearing out and the crank with only 6 hours on the engine. Anyway while rechecking EVERYTHING this time during reassembly with checker springs in the heads I found the push rods were interfering in the head BIG TIME. The higher the lifter went the tighter they got, even scuffed the side of the lifter as it was being forced sideways. You cant check for this with the running springs installed. I'm having to remove a lot of aluminum to get clearance. I think part of the noise was the push rod contacting the head on lift and coming away on base. I've had the left side head literally on and off 15 times to get the clearance right without going thru the intake runner. I'm using Hughes roller cam, ($550cdn second set of) retro roller lifters, and roller rockers, on Eddy Perf rpm heads.
Larry
 
yes thats an issue with rollers n la blocks and heads . why hasn't someone cast a hemi type head for la blocks , with millions of 318 360 340 out there still . but thats another thread .
 
There's no excuse for bad parts to get out if you do your quality checks properly... Period...

Somebody's taking short cuts at the manufacturer...
 
ha . but qa or qc must been part of the overhead they cut out . let the supplier venders do it right , lol , lol , lol .
 
Yeah. Hydraulic lifters in particular seem to have gone into the toilet quality-wise in about the last 10-15 years. I am wondering if some the 'tricks of the trade' in making good check valves learned back in the 30's and 40's when hydraulic lifters were being developed have just been lost with the turnover in personnel.

I think I am gonna try to find some old one and take them apart and see how the old innards compare to new innards.
 
pomonamissel said:
ha . but qa or qc must been part of the overhead they cut out . let the supplier venders do it right , lol , lol , lol .
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There should be either variable or attribute gauges at each station to verify that the parts are in spec after each operation...

Either the machine guy is not checking them - which management should enforce...

Or he was not given the gauge to use - because management trying to save money... (another management issue)...

Or when they find out of spec parts, they do not shut down the machine & fix because they do not want to loose the 'production numbers' - ie: downtime... (they would rather run junk & sell it to you)....


In all cases, it's management responsibility to control properly....


I've been in quality - I know how it works....

Management loves to cut quality first when they get in 'cost control' mode to save money....

They don't realize that their shooting themselves in the foot....


If your supplier sends it to you, then you need to do inspection to catch it until they get it under control - your name is on the end product, it's your reputation...
 
there is an tolerance issues , within the 80 or so flat tapper hyd i've dealt with . poor machining practices and grinding . fth are about a hundrede a set , but rollers are 500 n up . seems that someone should be checking the rollers for good or bad . had a tech from hyghlift johnsons (topline) tell me that every lifter is checked before it leaves the door . oh ya lying bastard ! i got a set from them that had three lifters that where rock hard , the pistons would not move at all and one of the 16 of them would have been okay , those where hand picked my *** .
 
LJ67barracuda340 said:
Just wondering,, did you clearance the Eddy head for the push rods. I'm going thru that right now. My valve train was noisy. I had to take the engine apart because I feel the machine shop left trash from machining in the block. Wore the main bearing out and the crank with only 6 hours on the engine. Anyway while rechecking EVERYTHING this time during reassembly with checker springs in the heads I found the push rods were interfering in the head BIG TIME. The higher the lifter went the tighter they got, even scuffed the side of the lifter as it was being forced sideways. You cant check for this with the running springs installed. I'm having to remove a lot of aluminum to get clearance. I think part of the noise was the push rod contacting the head on lift and coming away on base. I've had the left side head literally on and off 15 times to get the clearance right without going thru the intake runner. I'm using Hughes roller cam, ($550cdn second set of) retro roller lifters, and roller rockers, on Eddy Perf rpm heads.
Larry
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It looks like Hughes clearanced the push rod openings in the heads. I can see where it looks like a CNC machined has "drilled" down into the holes. Big swirl marks. They look to be over a half inch in diameter.... or bigger. I didn't really take note of it. With checker springs on, push rod in place, valve at full lift and valve on seat I can see the push rod has no interference.
What cam are you running? My cam is only 536/540 lift.
What you think? They been clearanced?

EDIT: Just looked and what I paid gets "Extra clearancing of pushrod tunnels"

IMG_3472_zps3juxtel4.jpg
 
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mullinax95 said:
It looks like Hughes clearanced the push rod openings in the heads. I can see where it looks like a CNC machined has "drilled" down into the holes. Big swirl marks. They look to be over a half inch in diameter.... or bigger. I didn't really take note of it. With checker springs on, push rod in place, valve at full lift and valve on seat I can see the push rod has no interference.
What cam are you running? My cam is only 536/540 lift.
What you think? They been clearanced?

EDIT: Just looked and what I paid gets "Extra clearancing of pushrod tunnels"

IMG_3472_zps3juxtel4.jpg
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Your's look like mine do now after a few hours of fitting. My lift is at .553 with 1.6 rockers. With the weak checker springs I couldn't turn the push rods at full lift, I can now with clearance.

P5030164.JPG


P5030165 (Medium).JPG


P5030166 (Medium).JPG
 
Oh OK... thanks for sharing the picture.
I'm running the SER3438ALN-10 cam using 1.5 rockers.
 
Dartish said:
Anyone know of issues with lifters from Lunati?
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I broke my fresh 340 in, no issues, the next time I started it one lifter plunger stuck all the way down, and did not pump up and wiped out a push rod and rocker arm. Replaced the one lifter, and it is ok now, but has a slight tick, the cam did not appear to have any damage.
 
I'm kind of afraid of these lifters now...might just send em back and go with solid rollers.
 
They are but it works..the ramps are different...I've done it before with flat tappet hydros to solid flat tappets too. Gotta go with a heavier valve spring for the solids. did it to a 327 years ago hydro to flat and all the sudden I had a 327 that would rev easily to 7 grand. the lash will in effect lessen the duration and make the cam seem smaller but I didnt really notice a difference on the butt dyno other than the rpm increase. A local drag guy turned me on to it when I was just getting in to building motors.
 
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lomchivok said:
They are but it works..the ramps are different...I've done it before with flat tappet hydros to solid flat tappets too. Gotta go with a heavier valve spring for the solids. did it to a 327 years ago hydro to flat and all the sudden I had a 327 that would rev easily to 7 grand. the lash will in effect lessen the duration and make the cam seem smaller but I didnt really notice a difference on the butt dyno other than the rpm increase. A local drag guy turned me on to it when I was just getting in to building motors.
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HEARD OF DRAG RACERS DOING IT FOR SOME ADVANTAGE IN CLASS RACING, NEVER DONE IT MYSELF. (forget caps !)
 
lomchivok said:
I'm kind of afraid of these lifters now...might just send em back and go with solid rollers.
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could go SR but that means another expensive cam, lifters. mine are coming out this weekend. have ordered solid edm lifters, pushrods, and FT cam. my experience with those retro lifters have put me off roller cams.
 
If that's the case with solid roller..... if these lifters keep giving me trouble.... that will be my next option.
 
Any company can have production issues. I don't disassemble any lifters ahead of assembling and I've never had a bad one from any manfacturer. However it's reality that at some point I will, and production parts can have issues. Marland surely had a defective one which given his history is unfortunate. But one bad one, even a few reports of bad ones in todays well-connected world, should not make anybody run screaming. I don't like or use Hughes for anything - not since the 90s because of attitude. The parts I bought then are still on the shelf as a matter of fact. But, they do sell product that is no worse than similar price point parts on the market. If you have them, set them up properly, mock things up to make sure they are set up properly, and then run them. Marland had two out of 16 bad (one really but they're riveted in pairs). That's still only a 6% failure rate using only his engine as the model. Based on a 94% positive result I'd still run them if I had them rather than pay a restocking fee and buying another set.
 
LJ67barracuda340 said:
are you going to put solid rollers on a hyd roller cam??? I was always under the impression solid and hyd cams were ground different!
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Lot's of people get shocked over the thought of this.

I called a Comp Cams engineer that I work with and told him I wanted to test a roller cam with hydraulic and solid rollers and gave him the lobes I wanted to use. His reply? Oh, no problem! We use those same lobes on both hydraulic and solid rollers.

I've been using solid lifters on hydraulic cams since the 1970's. With solid flat tappets I just use .004"-.006" lash on a hydraulic camshaft.
 
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