Inspection of a 904 torqueflite

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glhx said:
I’m finally now finishing both of these up.

All the clearances were checked and everything torqued and the clutch packs were air checked.

The bands were adjusted. The 904 is back together and Now that it’s done. I have a couple of comments
It feels tight on the input shaft. Of course that’s relative. It had trans goo paste instead of fluid with makes for a lot more resistance. Nothing was put in dry. The shaft turns fine. I have to use a short pair of channel locks to turn it. I can’t by hand very well. Output shaft is the same hard to turn by hand.

So here’s how I adjusted the bands. At first I torqued down the reverse band to 72” pounds and backed off 3 1/2. This kept the reverse locked down and wouldn’t turn at all. I turned back out another half and it was free but seemed to ride a little tight. This might have even been correct

When I got to the front band. It had a square head on it.
So.....what I ended up doing, was to back both the reverse band and the kickdown band back out to where they were both loose.

I tightened the reverse band down to lock it. Then slowly backed it out where it would barely turn freely and smoothly. Then backed it out 1/2 turn....it would turn faster with less resistance.

Once the reverse band was set. I went to the kickdown band and did the same thing for that one. Rotated the transmission the other way. Locked the kickdown to full lock and slowly backed out until it would barely Turn. Then went another 1/2 turn out for that one as well. Hopefully these are right......I know they are at least not too tight.

The 999 is still mostly apart but will be finished today. I guess I’ll adjust those the same way.
Click to expand...
Do not adjust by feel. To feel some drag is normal especially if you used trans gel.
As cudafact has said, what was your assemble end play.
The two bands are adjusted independently. Don,t worry how the feel is affecting the other band. I wish you luck and hope that your rebuild works.
 
I haven’t measured the end play yet. I did tug on it to see if it was tight or excessive. Seems fine. I’ll formally measure when I get a chance. My guess is about .030-.040

On the 904 to set the bands. I adjusted by sight. The valve body was still off and I just loosened it until I saw it just barely start to spin freely. Then backed off 1/2 turn and locked it down. Is this acceptable?

However: the second assembly on the 999 has stalled to a point where I’m beyond how to go about it. I got to the point where you put the small snap ring on the output shaft. It seems to have excessive play.
The slot where the snap ring goes is about .097-.10

The snap ring itself is .042
Nothing seemed right. I remember this being a snug fit.

The other transmission is already together. I’d hate to pull the pump and take it all back apart to double check the fit on that one but I do know it fit like it was supposed to. Everything about the 904 transmission went pretty smooth.

I know the thrust washers are all present.

The things that were replaced were the output shaft support, the output shaft itself....which was exactly the same....
And the sun shell....which is exactly the same.

The new sun shell used my original gears and shims.

So I took the old output shaft out of the box. The snap ring slot was the same as the other one.
I put the old sun shell back in. Same result.

This snap ring is the selective snap ring that goes all the way to the front of the shaft. I can buy a thicker one but the problem with all of this is....

Why is it different? What’s changed to make the old snap ring not work.

This one is beyond me so far. I’m pretty confident in a lot at this point. I know what goes where and how it is all supposed to fit. I am pretty sure the 904 is fine.

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This is how the 904 fits. This is not mine. I pulled the picture from online.
The 999 is way more loose than that.
 
The thrust washer is stuck to the planets with the trans lube. I have to use a butter knife to remove it because it gets like a sticky vacuum seal to it.

What I’m thinking about doing is taking that extra output shaft that’s unloaded and putting the stack on it. Try to see where the space is coming from.

That’s part of the problem here is that I know all the pieces are in there.

The thrust washers are all new. The planets are original.
Both sun shells and gears behave the same with the same clearance problem.

I think more pictures and measuring is in order. I had to stop not long after I found the issue so I didn’t get too far with it. I would have had them both done tonight if I didn’t run into this.
 
glhx said:
The thrust washer is stuck to the planets with the trans lube. I have to use a butter knife to remove it because it gets like a sticky vacuum seal to it.

What I’m thinking about doing is taking that extra output shaft that’s unloaded and putting the stack on it. Try to see where the space is coming from.

That’s part of the problem here is that I know all the pieces are in there.

The thrust washers are all new. The planets are original.
Both sun shells and gears behave the same with the same clearance problem.

I think more pictures and measuring is in order. I had to stop not long after I found the issue so I didn’t get too far with it. I would have had them both done tonight if I didn’t run into this.
Click to expand...
Did you put both of the thrust plates on the sunshell that you replaced. There is a thrust plate and a thrust washer on both sides of the sunshell. Did you put both those in when you assembled the sun gear to the sunshell. With that amount of end play it sounds like you have missed one somewhere.
The thrust plates are large shiny silver discs that get assembled when you put the sun gear into the sunshell before you put the snap rings on that hold the sun gear into the sunshell. Take a picture for us of both sides of your sunshell as assembled.
 
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Duane said:
Did you put both of the thrust plates on the sunshell that you replaced. There is a thrust plate and a thrust washer on both sides of the sunshell. Did you put both those in when you assembled the sun gear to the sunshell. With that amount of end play it sounds like you have missed one somewhere.
The thrust plates are large shiny silver discs that get assembled when you put the sun gear into the sunshell before you put the snap rings on that hold the sun gear into the sunshell. Take a picture for us of both sides of your sunshell as assembled.
Click to expand...

I’ve ruled out the output shaft support, the output shaft itself, and the planets. The thrust washers are all .50 and new. I remember they are the same as the old ones.

Some pictures are small because it won’t let me resize them using Flickr.
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This is the rear ring gear as pressed up against the seat of the shaft.

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Front view of rear ring gear

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Here is the rear planet with the thrust washer that seats up against the rear ring gear

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Here is the rear planet set with the front thrust washer. When I take the sun shell off. This is usually stuck to it. A butter knife comes in handy to remove it.

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Back side of sun shell. These large plat plates on the front side and the back are from the old shell.....as is the gear. His gear sits a bit more loose in the shell than the old one did. Even though everything was directly transferred over.

It came with its own sun gear in the mail. I didn’t use that one but that one was somewhat loose on there as well. I think some of the 904 shells I had were like this. However....there are also no wear patterns of any kind.

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2.74 front gear with the shim under it

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Thrust washer on the front planet. Back side

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Thrust washer on the front side of the front planet.

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Large thrust washer.
This specs put new at .120......it’s new. The old one did as well except where it was dug into and worn.

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Here is the gap. This runs about .097

The snap ring that was in there was .042
Given the 904 I just finished up. I’d have to take it back apart to look at the difference I think this is wrong. I really hate taking that pump out. I guess I’m going to have to get a slide hammer made for that.

I don’t see where I messed this up. It all seems perfect except for that snap ring.
 
It’s almost like a snap ring doesn’t even fit there and some sort of circle clip goes there. Like the one on the sun gear but smaller.
 
glhx said:
I’ve ruled out the output shaft support, the output shaft itself, and the planets. The thrust washers are all .50 and new. I remember they are the same as the old ones.

Some pictures are small because it won’t let me resize them using Flickr.
View attachment 1715425616 -
This is the rear ring gear as pressed up against the seat of the shaft.

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Front view of rear ring gear

View attachment 1715425618 -
Here is the rear planet with the thrust washer that seats up against the rear ring gear

View attachment 1715425619 -
Here is the rear planet set with the front thrust washer. When I take the sun shell off. This is usually stuck to it. A butter knife comes in handy to remove it.

View attachment 1715425620-
Back side of sun shell. These large plat plates on the front side and the back are from the old shell.....as is the gear. His gear sits a bit more loose in the shell than the old one did. Even though everything was directly transferred over.

It came with its own sun gear in the mail. I didn’t use that one but that one was somewhat loose on there as well. I think some of the 904 shells I had were like this. However....there are also no wear patterns of any kind.

View attachment 1715425621 -
2.74 front gear with the shim under it

View attachment 1715425622-
Thrust washer on the front planet. Back side

View attachment 1715425623-
Thrust washer on the front side of the front planet.

View attachment 1715425624 -
Large thrust washer.
This specs put new at .120......it’s new. The old one did as well except where it was dug into and worn.

View attachment 1715425625 -
Here is the gap. This runs about .097

The snap ring that was in there was .042
Given the 904 I just finished up. I’d have to take it back apart to look at the difference I think this is wrong. I really hate taking that pump out. I guess I’m going to have to get a slide hammer made for that.

I don’t see where I messed this up. It all seems perfect except for that snap ring.
Click to expand...

glhx said:
It’s almost like a snap ring doesn’t even fit there and some sort of circle clip goes there. Like the one on the sun gear but smaller.
Click to expand...
Have you actually installed the snap ring to see how the assembly feels?
The groove for the snap ring is wider than necessary to accommodate various thicknesses of snap rings. You can buy thicker snap rings if the end play is not correct. My book here says maximum gear train end play of .047 .
What is your end play with the snap ring installed. You could use a feeler gauge to get a measurement here.
 
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With the feeler gauge, the end play with the snap ring installed is .044
This was done with the snap ring on and the gear train turned over to get a good measurement at the back of the gear train

It seemed like it was a lot tighter than that before and fit snug.
There shouldn’t be a reason it’s .03 under the maximum spec.
But we’re looking right at it and it’s not put together wrong.

That slot the snap ring sits in is is between .086 and .090.
Wit has an .084 snap ring but it’s not available and I suspect it won’t be but I could source it somewhere else.
It would close the gap up no problem.

Question is.....am I masking something else?
It feels fine and meshes fine but it’s also not spinning thousands of rpm.
 
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That’s AASRP904gt

From a&a transmission.
A selective snap ring of .062 and .085

Can I run the .085 and get .002 tolerance and that be acceptable. I don’t know if there can be a spec that’s too tight on this. I think it is. The atsg book shows a minimum of .005......looks like I’m running the .062

Those rings were $10.50 plus $5 handling fee ......plus shipping unknown.
Not cheap for some snap rings but they have them and I guess I need them.
Still seems excessive.
 
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glhx said:
View attachment 1715425883 -

That’s AASRP904gt

From a&a transmission.
A selective snap ring of .062 and .085

Can I run the .085 and get .002 tolerance and that be acceptable. I don’t know if there can be a spec that’s too tight on this.

Those rings were $10.50 plus $5 handling fee ......plus shipping unknown.
Not cheap for some snap rings but they have them and I guess I need them.
Still seems excessive.
Click to expand...
The spec in my book says .001- .047. There is nothing wrong with .044. You could close it up some if it makes you feel better, but there is nothing wrong with .044. Clearance allows oil to get in and cool things, there is also expansion and contraction of parts.
Factory tolerances factor in these things. At .044 you are on the loose end of spec but in spec just the same.
 
glhx said:
With the feeler gauge, the end play with the snap ring installed is .044
This was done with the snap ring on and the gear train turned over to get a good measurement at the back of the gear train

It seemed like it was a lot tighter than that before and fit snug.
There shouldn’t be a reason it’s .03 under the maximum spec.
But we’re looking right at it and it’s not put together wrong.

That slot the snap ring sits in is is between .086 and .090.
Wit has an .084 snap ring but it’s not available and I suspect it won’t be but I could source it somewhere else.
It would close the gap up no problem.

Question is.....am I masking something else?
It feels fine and meshes fine but it’s also not spinning thousands of rpm.
Click to expand...
If you look very carefully at the snap ring when it's sitting in the groove you will notice that the snap ring only contacts the groove on one side. The other side is actually against the gear set. That is why I asked you to measure the end play with the snap ring installed.
The other side of the groove will never touch the snap ring because the gear set is slightly longer than the location of the groove so that the thickness of the snap ring controls the end play. Unless your thrust washers get excessively worn.
 
I do have another thin snap ring now
The a&a kit has .040,.062, and .085

So I could either run 2 thin ones and have .005 clearance or run the thick one and have .002 clearance. Or run the .062 and have closer to .020 clearance

What do you guys recommend
 
glhx said:
I do have another thin snap ring now
The a&a kit has .040,.062, and .085

So I could either run 2 thin ones and have .005 clearance or run the thick one and have .002 clearance. Or run the .062 and have closer to .020 clearance

What do you guys recommend
Click to expand...
I run my race trans at .005-.010 because it has roller thrust washers that need to stay in place. But with stock thrust washers I would say .020 would be good. Running it too tight like .002 well why run it at either extreme of the tolerance. A local trans builder told me to never run too tight because oil cannot get in to lubricate parts.
As you run the trans, it will loosen up some, so you could run .020
and have room for loosening without getting too loose.
The A&A snap ring kit will get you a better tolerance for sure.
 
Put the .065 snap ring in for the gear train end play. I get .032 clearance. It’s much better. I put the .085 in and got about .002

Put the rest together. Running .012 total end play. Seems really tight. Have to use pliers to get it to move. Everything is new. Clutches and thrust washers etc.....



All the clutch packs have the correct spec on clearance and the bands are completely loose. I did put the trans on its tail to put the pump in but I did not check end play that way. The trans is level for that
 
glhx said:
Put the .065 snap ring in for the gear train end play. I get .032 clearance. It’s much better. I put the .085 in and got about .002

Put the rest together. Running .012 total end play. Seems really tight. Have to use pliers to get it to move. Everything is new. Clutches and thrust washers etc.....



All the clutch packs have the correct spec on clearance and the bands are completely loose. I did put the trans on its tail to put the pump in but I did not check end play that way. The trans is level for that
Click to expand...
Did you go back and adjust your bands the proper way. They should not be completely loose. Tighten to 72 inch pounds, then back off the proper number of turns. You will feel slight drag but that is ok as long as the amount of turns are correct. Read a shop manual.
It will not tell you to adjust by feel. How are you measuring your gear train endplay. Something wrong with your math there.putting the .085 in you should have got .012 clearance, not .002. .032 is good thou, again well within tolerance,
Better loose than too tight.
 
When I measured the gear train end play. I put the gear train together with the appropriate snap ring. THen held it upside down and measured the gap between the rear ring gear and the output shaft.
With the .087 snap ring I got not even .008 clearance. My feeler gauge set wouldn’t go smaller than that. So I put the .065 ring in and got .030

There might be .001 or .002 variation in there but I can see that with the .085 snap ring it’s too tight.

The torque specs on the bands.
They didn’t match up. I tightened Dow the rear band to 72 inch pounds and then backed off the required number of turns. The band was still tight when done to spec. It took another 1/2 to get it to move.

So when I went to tighten down the kickdown band. There was no socket I had that fit the adjustment bolt. So I looked online at some of the people on here and did it by how it turned.

Tighten it down....loosen it till it just turns and then back out 1/2 turn.

The clutch pack was air checked at one point. I don’t remember the spec. This was also done with no fluid soaked into them like it had now.

My air compressor took a dive so I have not been able to apply test them after putting it together the second time.

When testing total end play. I put a dial indicator on the input shaft and move it back and forth by hand.
It’s hard to even get an accurate reading because the trans is so tight. I can see that it’s close to 10-15 thousandths. This is with the bands adjusted loose to allow max end play with no resistance.

The transmission turns fine with the torque converter and a pair of pliers but is pretty hard to turn by hand....and it would be because all that’s in it is transgoo and some fluid mixed in.

I’m on the fence on whether it’s ok or not. It’s my first one and I’ve never seen a new transmission or a rebuilt one.

The 904 turned out the same way....but it would because I built them the same.

The 700r4 I have seems more what I see as normal....but it’s worn in. The other 700 I have is tight and looks like it has a new pump so I know someone had been in there.....but the fluid smells burned.
I’ve been buying parts for that one for a rebuilt to try to make it last longer and research to set the tv correctly....but that’s another story.
 
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I’ll post pictures of how I got the gear train end play and the measurements of the snap rings. The .008 would not fit. If I had gotten .012 I would have run that one....it shows .005 as the tight side as spec. But .030 seems perfect.
 
Tap the input to knock out the goop. Still no numbers on any of the four clutch packs. Clutch pack clearance is more critical than end play.
 
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