Jeep 4.0 in 69 Barracuda

Slant 6 Engines

  1. 65 Dartman

    65 Dartman FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    I bought the OEM Miller T Bar tool many years ago and with it (or similar), I've never had a problem removing a torsion bar. Once the K is out, it should back together pretty easy. I've got a picture on my wagon thread showing the dropped K with the steering box and part of the suspension. Hardest part was getting down to remove the K bolts - the legs and back don't work like they used to!
     
  2. JohnFM3

    JohnFM3 Well-Known Member

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    I will have to get creative with the torsion bars when i pull it apart.

    Something else I just thought about... (see thats what this thread is about, the entertainment value of watching me fumble thru as I start on something then notice I am missing items to complete the work lol)... I have no wheels and tires to put this front end down on. And I need those so I can measure roughly where I want the engine to sit again. I do have a rough idea from the original dropping of the engine a few pages back.

    I need to see what the front end of my 69 barracuda is worth (small bolt pattern with drum front brakes), see if I can trade it for a set of wheels (5x4.5) with rotten tires. Definitely need to start selling parts which I have pulled out.
     
  3. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    John,

    I assume your answer to my question of, "How many turbocharged slant sixes have you worked on? How much information, in your experience, do you have about, what these forced-induction engines "like?" " is none, and none.

    Well, that is completely understandable, as the forced-induction slant six is a too-well-kept secret. I had never enterained the idea of one until about seven years ago when I became aware of Ryan Peterson's and Tom Wolfe's cars. I didn't think this up on my own.... I started off from "ground zero" having NO knowledge of the engine OR turbos at that time. Everything I have learned about both, I have absorbed in that time period, so, no, I am too new at this to be of much use as a source of information; there are TONS of people on this board who have forgotten more about slants and turbos than I will ~ever~ know. That is the (sad) truth... but, I will help in any way my limited knowledge allows me to. All you have to do is ask...

    My initial post was an attempt to try to find out why the boosted slant was not a contender for this project; now, I know...you were like me, seven years ago... you didn't know..... like ME. :)

    This is a super-neat project and has my interest, for sure! "I'll be watching you...." Sting said.... LOL!

    Thanks for all the information!

    Bill
     
  4. JohnFM3

    JohnFM3 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I tried to avoid this as I really dont want a chest beating contest on this thread. But in short I am against turbos in general. Turbo's are all in all great for adding a small amount of power such as between shifts to ensure I am still pulling as I pull out the clutch such as my son's factory 1990 turbo charged toyota supra with a 3.0L inline 6 with 4 pounds of boost which is tuned just about right for between shifts. As to how many turbo charged slant sixes have I worked on. NONE. As most people I know dont waste the time to build a slant six like I would, they build V8's and in those cases they dont need a turbo to hit 500 hp. When it comes to a streetable car, i will never consider a turbo'd six or any other engine short of my 2014 VW TDI which is highly computer controlled 2.0L 4 cyl turbo diesel (yes I am included in the whole VW dieselgate). A turbo'd slant six would be a great quarter mile car setup. And doing things such as rear mounted turbo's where the turbo sits under the trunk would be kind of cool to do.

    Enjoy the thread
     
  5. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    John; no chest-beating and, certainly no offense...

    Before I go completely silent on this subject (I have hijacked this thread, shamelessly, and that needs to stop,) I did not understand a couple of the things you said and if you will humor me this one time, I promise not to distract you from your interesting project-issues, again.

    To wit:

    You said, "I am against turbos in general. " But, you didn't as far as I could see, explain why. You are a really smart guy and, I am sure you have your own, good reasons for feeling the way you do, but I have no idea what they are. I'd like to hear them.

    You also said, "Turbo's are all in all great for adding a small amount of power such as between shifts..." How about, for adding 200 horsepower to an anemic, N/A slant that has fallen victim to the amazingly-poor breathing of the slant six cylinder head?
    I also wondered, why would you need power between shifts? The clutch is disengaged... and, my personal feeling (no, nobody asked,) is that any car with a turbocharger, needs an automatic transmission so there is never an interruption in the exhaust flow to the impeller. To do less, is not taking full advantage of the power-adder, I think.

    And, lastly, it is my feeling that if you own an A-Body with a slant six, the expense involved in the changeover to a V-8 will be just as great as adding forged pistons,rods, and O-Rings with a copper gasket to the engine already in the car. Then you have "just another V-8 Mopar," of which there are zillions.... instead if an unusual, nearly-unique, head-turner.

    It's neither cheap, nor, easy to make 500 horsepower out of a turbo'd slant six, but a 500 horsepower V-8 isn't cheap, either, plus, with the V-8, you have all the ancillary expenses... such as a Schumacher swap-kit, a bigger radiator, an A-body 8.75" rear end, with probably two different final-drive ratios (center-sections) ... one for the strip and, another for the highway., a different-length driveshaft, a dual-exhaust system, buying the V-8 engine (!), buying a V-8 transmission, and a lot of "incidental" parts that wouldn't be required if you had left the orginal slant six in the car.

    The fact is; the poor-breathing cylinder head of the slant six has suceeded in giving it a well-deserved reputation as a poor performer that has convinced the majority of folks who want a fast A-body, that any money spent on a slant six (naturally-aspirated) would not produce much in the way of meaningful acceleration or top speed. And, they'd be right.

    But, the hairdryer (or, supercharger,) changes all that. All of a sudden, the so-so performance of a modified N/A slant becomes very much V-8-like, after the addition of a turbo, now, with acceptable moxie... and that is why ~I~ like turbos, as regards slant sixes. They turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. In reality, they can add about 200+ horsepower to a well-built, naturally-aspirated slant motor. They make it respectable in one, fell swoop.

    Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. :)

    Over and out....
     
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    • CUDACOX

      CUDACOX Well-Known Member

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      Keep the Jeep engines in the Jeep's! Build a nice factory small block instead..:)
       
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      • txstang84

        txstang84 Well-Known Member

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        Pretty interested to know how that AJE rack conversion K member goes...there were some less than happy customers I found elsewhere on the web...according to one guy in particular, the control arms would bind on extension, ackermann angles were off, bump steer sucked, and the rack needed relocation. I still have my heart set on the HDK kit, but options are good to see. Unless I'm looking at the kit incorrectly, it looks like the rack is located on the aft side of the K member so you can keep the factory style spindles...or am I looking at this thing bassackwards?
         
      • JohnFM3

        JohnFM3 Well-Known Member

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        I gota say I like you. Your brave to come over to this side of the tracks and suggest a small block in a slant six thread... lol Trying to drag another slant six (or any six) owner over to the dark side of v8's. But I gota say I understand your suggestion as my father had tried to teach me that there is no Replacement for Displacement.

        I "liked" your comment for the noted reason. Hope you will watch this thread as things start moving this winter.

        John
         
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        • JohnFM3

          JohnFM3 Well-Known Member

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          Your not the first person to express the same concerns about the steering geometry. When I addressed this to the owner of AJE, they explained how they have addressed that. If I understand correctly, the original kits made use of the factory steering arm which had to be reversed (where the left and right arm are swapped) so that the arm was facing forward as the steering rack is in front of the engine and front spindles. For those who don't know, the steering arm is a part which bolts to the lower portion of the spindle and attaches to the lower ball joint. Its also the part where the tie rod ends secure too to turn the spindle left and right (most probably already know this). In my kit that I purchased, they have built a new lower steering arm specifically designed to face forward and address the short comings of using the stock ones swapped. An image of that part was not above. I will provide more complete images when I goto assemble the setup.


          The kit does work the factory spindles. They have control arm options for the small bolt pattern spindles such as my stock 69 A-Body and options for the 73+ large bolt pattern A-body which is what I bought. If I understand correctly, AJE highly recommends purchasing the spindles they sell which are ford spindles and make use of a common brake setup used on large GMC trucks. Those spindles are only $500 a pair.

          As you look at the picture of the K-Member on page 7, the picture is orientated as you looking down at it from the front of the car. The two pairs of bushings on the bottom are the front of the K-Member and where the steering rack is secured across the front of the K-Member.

          After this front end work has been done, assuming I am happy with the end result, I have been in communication with AJE to assist me in the building of a 4 Link rear end setup. I will be doing the design work and ask them to do the building to my spec's. But this will be much furhter down the road, as in the very last thing I do.
           
        • JohnFM3

          JohnFM3 Well-Known Member

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          The rest I will address in a private message with you if you wish. As to the cost of going V8, if you recall the beginning of this thread this car was originally a 318 car I believe (I do not believe it was a 340 car not at the low cost I paid) with a rebuildable engine and a 727 auto tranny. Going to any 6 was going to cost more than restoring what was there. Also the stock engine looked as if had been rebuilt, based on my inspection which I showed some pictures of at the time. And if I am going to spend the cash to do the conversion to the six, I have five or six Chry era 4.0L in my garage. Most that are completely runnable (Renix and H.O. alike). And countless parts including the fuel management which is helping to keep the cost down. Lets not talk about the 1 AW4 4sp (3 sp with overdrive) auto tranny's, the 2 spare AX15 (with internal slave) manual 5 speeds, and 1 Peugeot manual 5sp. I have no slant sixes, and no parts to start with for a slant six. when talking about cost, this is much better than having to shell out a bunch of money for a slant six which I wont keep in the long run. Everything in this car will move to a jeep when I swap to the 265 inline six in 7 to 10 yrs. Anything invested in this wont be lost when trying to sell it too someone who wants to pay bottom dollar for it as it will goto me.
           
        • JohnFM3

          JohnFM3 Well-Known Member

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          On to our regularly scheduled program.
          Last weekend my spindles showed up which I was not expecting to show up till today. That being said, I thought I may try to do the swap and figured I would hit a local wrecking yard to pick up a set of dead rotors. Yeah, not so easy. I tried calling several local yards with no luck and 1 person even laughing at me for calling them as they only have 90's and newer. I ended up calling napa and ordering all new rotors, bearings, and seals. Something else I fubar'd on. I didn't ensure the spindles came with all the hub hardware to hold the rotor on. So I had to reach out to napa for 2 sets of that as well. $200 later, I now have everything needed to finish off the front end.

          Remember my comment above about the entertainment value of watching me fumble around looking for parts. Well I still need large bolt pattern wheels. I can not even start this swap till I have some wheels and tires which will fit under the car. So that's my next thing. May post on craigslist and see about trading my small pattern wheels and stock hub caps for some aftermarket junk wheels or maybe if I can get lucky some stock police ralley wheels.
           
        • JohnFM3

          JohnFM3 Well-Known Member

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          Regarding removing the K-Member. Do I have to pull the torsion bars before dropping the K-Member, or can just loosen the tension on the bar's, drop and pull the k-member forward, then remove the bars (which I know have a clip holding them in). Doing this would allow me to hit the face of the bar and push it back.

          Thanks,
          John
           
        • CUDACOX

          CUDACOX Well-Known Member

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          Best of luck however you choose your quest! As long as it's MOPAR!
           
        • JohnFM3

          JohnFM3 Well-Known Member

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          The quest has already been chosen, now its just time to understand why.
           
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          • txstang84

            txstang84 Well-Known Member

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            Thanks for the reply John. I look forward to seeing the new steering arms and how it all goes together.
             
          • cudak888

            cudak888 1-Baker-11

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            Subscribed - for the very reason John is building his. I've been equally curious as to what it'd take to stuff a 4.0 in an earlier Mopar platform ever since I saw a similar thread at the FMJ forum (which, sadly, didn't actually have anyone's project log tied to it).

            -Kurt
             
          • 65 Dartman

            65 Dartman FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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            I would release the tension on the bars, remove the clip at the end and push them back with the tool OR remove the LCA nut and the strut rod nut at the K and take a hammer and tap on the LCA till it's out of the K. You can then easily remove the LCA from the T Bar. That's what I did when I dropped the K on my wagon - bad back and legs notwithstanding. I guess you could try it the other way but think you'll be futzing with it a LOT more trying to get the bars to come out at the proper angle from the rear sockets.
             
          • JohnFM3

            JohnFM3 Well-Known Member

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            Thanks for confirming my fears. I figured that is how it had to go, was just hoping someone had a secret that would work.
             
          • JohnFM3

            JohnFM3 Well-Known Member

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            Thanks. Hopefully this thread fulfills your curiosity.
             
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            • JohnFM3

              JohnFM3 Well-Known Member

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              No promises. But I am going to try for getting the K-Member and suspension installed this weekend. Most likely it will be the weekend of Aug 6th and 7th which is Seafair weekend and the all important Hydroplane races in Seattle on lake Washington.
               
            • 65 Dartman

              65 Dartman FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              Either way you gotta remove the tension from the bars! Forgot to mention that!
               
            • JohnFM3

              JohnFM3 Well-Known Member

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              yeah, that's kind of an assumption. Kind of hard to remove them as they are bound up... lol Thanks for your insight and assistance. I am really excited for this to get on to the next phase of the project where results start showing up.
               
            • RustyRatRod

              RustyRatRod Bla de blizhibliz de blatde blizi bla bla FABO Gold Member

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              Bill I love you man.......but shut up.

               
            • cudak888

              cudak888 1-Baker-11

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              I think both of you guys are fantastic, but I had to laugh HARD at this one.

              -Kurt
               
            • RustyRatRod

              RustyRatRod Bla de blizhibliz de blatde blizi bla bla FABO Gold Member

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              I really like Bill and he knows it. I gotta poke the stick at him every now and then. lol
               
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