Let's talk G3 hemi cams

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Maybe look at what the Demon and Red Eyes are running for an OEM cam? You won’t have the advantage of VVT so maybe adjust the centerline or something. You will be down on displacement a little and maybe cylinder head flow, but even if you are 200 hp lower than one of those, I would call it a win.

I know there is a guy on ChallengerTalk.com that did a Hellcat cam swap in his 2015 RT with a blower and seems to really like it.
 
TT5.9mag said:
Think of boost as just a multiplier of whatever the engine does NA. All the same rules apply with regards to runner length and shape, port cross section ect. Anything you do to the NA engine to increase power or efficiency will be represented the same under boost, just more of it. I suggest watching as much of Richard Holdener’s dyno testing as you can. He’s been beating this way of thinking to death on the dyno for years and makes a lot of info available.
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I was just about to refer @'63GT to Richard Holdener's videos. I was quite surprised to see the dyno graph overlay of boosted vs. no boosted. The curves are damn near identical, just higher on the graph (more Tq and HP). Therefore, your expertise in NA head porting isn't null and void for boosted applications. FYI. As much as I try to not be the "bottom of the page" cam selector, I always tend to lean that way.... I like your style..lol. thanks for the education on the RPM range. Didn't know the LSA was a limiting factor on that.
 
racerjoe said:
Didn't know the LSA was a limiting factor on that.
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Well, it's not just the lobe centers. It's the cam as a whole. Lobe profiles are different, on the Int but especially the exh. I'm speaking differences the cam card doesn't show.
Also too, Holdener has decent content, but he leaves import particulars out... the stuff almost everyone misses. The kind of stuff someone like myself, whose spent time in a dyno cell, would ask.
He also doesn't own a flowbench (as I do, 30+ yrs) so that reduces a huge part of the experience he claims to have.. which is why I'm not a subscriber.
Not sure what you mean by 'style'... suppose its good ?
 
'63GT said:
Well, it's not just the lobe centers. It's the cam as a whole. Lobe profiles are different, on the Int but especially the exh. I'm speaking differences the cam card doesn't show.
Also too, Holdener has decent content, but he leaves import particulars out... the stuff almost everyone misses. The kind of stuff someone like myself, whose spent time in a dyno cell, would ask.
He also doesn't own a flowbench (as I do, 30+ yrs) so that reduces a huge part of the experience he claims to have.. which is why I'm not a subscriber.
Not sure what you mean by 'style'... suppose its good ?
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Well, he doesn’t own a dyno but has thousands of runs on one. So you’re correct he doesn’t own a flow bench, but he has access to westechs flow bench and has spent many hours on it. He’s flowed heads and an intake for me personally and does a lot of flow bench work on his channel. I certainly am not trying to disqualify your experience or intelligence, i hope it’s not coming off that way, I just think you’re coming from a head porters background and he is coming from a dyno operators background. What important particulars do you think he leaves out? I’m intrigued.
 
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TT5.9mag said:
What important particulars do you think he leaves out? I’m intrigued.
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Well, I did feel a little canceled... But, I do accept what you had to say.
It's been a year since I've seen the episode I'm about to refer to.. I'm probably going to have to find it..
One time in particular, Holdener did a mopar, phord, shivi SB shootout, of sorts.
First off, there was merely a cursory overview of the heads being used. (were they flow tested?? were they even in the same realm from each other?) the phord got an aluminum head (for sure) and I think (?) the mopar got a OE Mag head.
No stipulation as to headers used.. same config? Cam's, who knows. I think one of them had a 4"crank and it wasn't the mopar!
So, I wondered, what ARE we testing here ???? it certainly wasn't scientific. I had an overwhelming suspicion Holdener threw together a bunch of unrelated dyno runs, just to have something to post.
You seem to be one of the smarter of the FABO bunch (judging from past interactions), does any of that scan?
Not only that, he only shows the curves. I want to see the data. Was the BSFC's way off on one of the tests? Or the EGT's for that matter. it's all too watered down for my tastes.
Now because I can't see that, how can I have any confidence in the test?
Here's the deal, I'm 58, I've seen a lot of crap passed off as reliable info. Running a flowbench and using one as a development tool, are two different solar systems. It is very complex.
Someone with true expertise simply have a different way of explaining things.. I like Holdener as a person. seems to be an ok guy, but the lack of complexity is a flag for me.
If someone is going to perform a (legitimate) shootout, those heads BETTER be damn near equal. Would you have it any other way, if it was your motor on the pump?

Lastly, to what end??? was there a valuable service provided? If a scientific instrument, like a dyno was used, supply the scientific data !
In my personal journey on cars, dating back to the late 70's, I absorbed as much info as I could. But I got to the point I realized some, or much of the stuff I was absorbing was total horseshit. One sided publications fudging dyno curves to regale their readers and pump the ego's of the editors.
I'm interested in the truth!
If I gotta eat crow now and then.. I would rather do that, then remain a fool.
 
'63GT said:
Well, I did feel a little canceled... But, I do accept what you had to say.
It's been a year since I've seen the episode I'm about to refer to.. I'm probably going to have to find it..
One time in particular, Holdener did a mopar, phord, shivi SB shootout, of sorts.
First off, there was merely a cursory overview of the heads being used. (were they flow tested?? were they even in the same realm from each other?) the phord got an aluminum head (for sure) and I think (?) the mopar got a OE Mag head.
No stipulation as to headers used.. same config? Cam's, who knows. I think one of them had a 4"crank and it wasn't the mopar!
So, I wondered, what ARE we testing here ???? it certainly wasn't scientific. I had an overwhelming suspicion Holdener threw together a bunch of unrelated dyno runs, just to have something to post.
You seem to be one of the smarter of the FABO bunch (judging from past interactions), does any of that scan?
Not only that, he only shows the curves. I want to see the data. Was the BSFC's way off on one of the tests? Or the EGT's for that matter. it's all too watered down for my tastes.
Now because I can't see that, how can I have any confidence in the test?
Here's the deal, I'm 58, I've seen a lot of crap passed off as reliable info. Running a flowbench and using one as a development tool, are two different solar systems. It is very complex.
Someone with true expertise simply have a different way of explaining things.. I like Holdener as a person. seems to be an ok guy, but the lack of complexity is a flag for me.
If someone is going to perform a (legitimate) shootout, those heads BETTER be damn near equal. Would you have it any other way, if it was your motor on the pump?

Lastly, to what end??? was there a valuable service provided? If a scientific instrument, like a dyno was used, supply the scientific data !
In my personal journey on cars, dating back to the late 70's, I absorbed as much info as I could. But I got to the point I realized some, or much of the stuff I was absorbing was total horseshit. One sided publications fudging dyno curves to regale their readers and pump the ego's of the editors.
I'm interested in the truth!
If I gotta eat crow now and then.. I would rather do that, then remain a fool.
Click to expand...


I know exactly where you’re coming from and I feel pretty close to the same way about almost all of the tv shows and internet stuff out there. They seem to only only show information relevant to their target demographic. Who can blame them really. I’d like more data from about 99% of what I watch. You’re also correct that content seems to be king in the you tube world, even if the content is crap it’s still content and that’s what they get payed for. I’ve seen and am familiar with the episode you're referencing above and I think he dumbed it down purposely to better represent what is actually out there running around in every day cars. Of course he could have made all the heads the same, the cams the same, compression etc, but then really they’d all make the same power, or damn close to it. I don’t know, I guess I get both sides of the argument, make them identical so the test is scientifically valid, but also don’t go to great lengths to make them identical for a more accurate representation of what’s in my Mopar and my neighbors Chevy.
 
TT5.9mag said:
I know exactly where you’re coming from and I feel pretty close to the same way about almost all of the tv shows and internet stuff out there. They seem to only only show information relevant to their target demographic. Who can blame them really. I’d like more data from about 99% of what I watch. You’re also correct that content seems to be king in the you tube world, even if the content is crap it’s still content and that’s what they get payed for. I’ve seen and am familiar with the episode you're referencing above and I think he dumbed it down purposely to better represent what is actually out there running around in every day cars. Of course he could have made all the heads the same, the cams the same, compression etc, but then really they’d all make the same power, or damn close to it. I don’t know, I guess I get both sides of the argument, make them identical so the test is scientifically valid, but also don’t go to great lengths to make them identical for a more accurate representation of what’s in my Mopar and my neighbors Chevy.
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Well, right on!
I would love to see some honesty in a direct comparo like that, instead of the usual one sided crap.
What do you think?
the Mopar has the widest Int manifold of the 3. That makes for longer runners for higher torque levels.
There's been much discussion about rod ratio's, and that it's supposedly not a factor.. Personally, I think this is an example of convenient 'blurring the facts', cause the shivi has the worst R/S ratios out there.
In the early 90's, I took a shivi camel hump (1.94 Int), a mopar 596 smog head (1.88 Int), and a Windsor Phord head (1.84 Int which I didn't like doing cause it's so small) anyway, all got bowl porting, back cut valves, and same valve jobs. The 596 won by 5cfm, and the phord shivi basically tied.
(put these heads as a display at my buddies shop, who was doing a promotional event. it was not a favored display by most)
Cost of the build is also a huge misnomer ... I don't ever see mentioned all of the ancillary valvetrain hardware the chevy guys have to buy (larger studs and machining costs to install them, stud girdles, and guide plates) all of which the mopar guy doesn't need. that's the turd that never seems to flush.
Some of the iron used in the sbc is terrible! I've seen ridges so big., that you might as well drop a 060 over piston in it.
I'm ranting... time to stop.
 
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The Comp HTR series was mentioned above and is the one I have been looking at. Gotta find someone running one with similar mods before I jump in. This is the one I'm leaning towards:
Comp 112-303-11
220/230 @ .050", .596/.582 113
Stock pre eagle bottom end, SRT shorties, Eagle heads and manifold. Don't want to run a stall converter. Weekend toy to go to car shows and such.
 
subcom said:
MOPAR 6.4L Stock 6-Speed Camshaft - 5037379BC
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I've been buying my factory Mopar parts from Eastcoastmoparts.com a dealership in MD. I find they have the best prices and I get the goods in less than 10 days. The stock 6.4 cam was about $237.

And keep this vewy qwiet but with anything I buy from Summit, Jegs, or EBay, I pay 8% sales tax. (no escaping Jegs and Summit are Ohio based so I get hit) East Coast does not tax me though I'm obligated to claim it voluntarily on my state tax return and pay then.
 
'63GT said:
Well, right on!
I would love to see some honesty in a direct comparo like that, instead of the usual one sided crap.
What do you think?
the Mopar has the widest Int manifold of the 3. That makes for longer runners for higher torque levels.
There's been much discussion about rod ratio's, and that it's supposedly not a factor.. Personally, I think this is an example of convenient 'blurring the facts', cause the shivi has the worst R/S ratios out there.
In the early 90's, I took a shivi camel hump (1.94 Int), a mopar 596 smog head (1.88 Int), and a Windsor Phord head (1.84 Int which I didn't like doing cause it's so small) anyway, all got bowl porting, back cut valves, and same valve jobs. The 596 won by 5cfm, and the phord shivi basically tied.
(put these heads as a display at my buddies shop, who was doing a promotional event. it was not a favored display by most)
Cost of the build is also a huge misnomer ... I don't ever see mentioned all of the ancillary valvetrain hardware the chevy guys have to buy (larger studs and machining costs to install them, stud girdles, and guide plates) all of which the mopar guy doesn't need. that's the turd that never seems to flush.
Some of the iron used in the sbc is terrible! I've seen ridges so big., that you might as well drop a 060 over piston in it.
I'm ranting... time to stop.
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I have to agree with both of ya'll on this. His videos to lack substance and I'm almost 100% certain its because 99% of his viewing audience wouldn't understand that much technical information. Also keep in mind people have short attention spans these days. They want instant gratification. So basically tell me what motor your testing and show me the HP. That's all. I'm not a regular viewer of his channel, but I have heard him say heads or intake were CNC ported. Right then it would be good to know if they flow 200CFM or 400CFM, especially if he's talking about an NA motor. I do think the engine masters guys do a better job of discussing more technical items.
 
racerjoe said:
I have to agree with both of ya'll on this. His videos to lack substance and I'm almost 100% certain its because 99% of his viewing audience wouldn't understand that much technical information. Also keep in mind people have short attention spans these days. They want instant gratification. So basically tell me what motor your testing and show me the HP. That's all. I'm not a regular viewer of his channel, but I have heard him say heads or intake were CNC ported. Right then it would be good to know if they flow 200CFM or 400CFM, especially if he's talking about an NA motor. I do think the engine masters guys do a better job of discussing more technical items.
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It's a shame, isn't it? ...and it doesn't (shouldn't) have to be this way.
"don't confuse me with the facts" has become the mantra that allows many of these shows to flourish.
 
lowell66dart said:
The Comp HTR series was mentioned above and is the one I have been looking at. Gotta find someone running one with similar mods before I jump in. This is the one I'm leaning towards:
Comp 112-303-11
220/230 @ .050", .596/.582 113
Stock pre eagle bottom end, SRT shorties, Eagle heads and manifold. Don't want to run a stall converter. Weekend toy to go to car shows and such.
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Please share it, if you find it. Some of this stuff is like finding fly **** in pepper..
Are you using a 'truck' timing cover on your build?
 
I will for sure report on anything I find. The issue is Facebook and the forums have a lot of content/opinions but you have to hang out on them a good bit to get a feel for the folks that know what their doing. This is my first venture down the ECU controlled rabbit hole but it's been fun so far.
 
Let's get this thread rolling again. I ordered a cam this morning. Was leaning towards a Comp HRT but decided to stay local with Cam Motion.

GRIND# XA220/360-XA227/350-14+4
Hydraulic Roller Camshaft
Performance
Duration at .050": 220/227
114 Lobe Separation Angle
110 Intake Centerline
Lift with 1.65 Rocker Arm Ratio: .594"/.577"
Recommended Displacement: 5.7-6.1 Liter Engines
Recommended Compression Ratio: 9.0-10.8:1
Recommended Headers: Stock Manifolds to 1 3/4"
Recommended Stall Converter: Stock to 3200
Recommended Rear Axle Ratio: Stock to 3.92:1

I have my Eagles back from the machine shop. All of the valves were worn down about 20 thou on the valve stem tip so all new valves. Did a little work on the roof of the exhaust port as mentioned above and just did a general light touch up everywhere. I am going to use the 6.4 intake with SRT shorties. I also lucked onto a set of the Stainless Works cat delete pipes for half price. Cam will be 3 or 4 weeks out. I also checked with the guy who tuned my car and he had no problem with my plans.
 
lowell66dart said:
Let's get this thread rolling again. I ordered a cam this morning. Was leaning towards a Comp HRT but decided to stay local with Cam Motion.

GRIND# XA220/360-XA227/350-14+4
Hydraulic Roller Camshaft
Performance
Duration at .050": 220/227
114 Lobe Separation Angle
110 Intake Centerline
Lift with 1.65 Rocker Arm Ratio: .594"/.577"
Recommended Displacement: 5.7-6.1 Liter Engines
Recommended Compression Ratio: 9.0-10.8:1
Recommended Headers: Stock Manifolds to 1 3/4"
Recommended Stall Converter: Stock to 3200
Recommended Rear Axle Ratio: Stock to 3.92:1

I have my Eagles back from the machine shop. All of the valves were worn down about 20 thou on the valve stem tip so all new valves. Did a little work on the roof of the exhaust port as mentioned above and just did a general light touch up everywhere. I am going to use the 6.4 intake with SRT shorties. I also lucked onto a set of the Stainless Works cat delete pipes for half price. Cam will be 3 or 4 weeks out. I also checked with the guy who tuned my car and he had no problem with my plans.
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Smart move on the 6.4 intake..
In the midst of scores of flow tests I've done on the Eagles (and pre-Eagles), is running engine combos on my dyno software.. What I've found, was that the OEM - long runner manifolds, is what made the difference in keeping the torque/HP curve under 6200 rpm while using a cam larger than 215°@050.
At any point when the runner length is shorter than 11" (manifold only - not including port length) the torque curve is affected too much to justify a short runner Intake for anything other than a drag application with a drag only camshaft.
If I'm not mistaken, OE manifolds are in the 13 - 14 inch range. The Edelbrock barrel intake is advertised at 14". Way too long in my estimation. I feel if they made them 11" or 12", it would have been in the goldilocks length for any performance street or even a race app.
I've also done a ton of flow testing on a challenger/charger Intake.
I cut it apart and really got after it. Had to, it didn't flow very good . BTW opening up the TB opening is a waste of time. The gains are on the inside. Port matching offers very little.
 
Well that's good to know on the intake. Probably just going to clean up any casting flash and call it good.

This new stuff is so user friendly. I remember when I was 17 and had a 327 in my 57 Chevy hardtop. I put in an Isky 300 duration cam with .480 lift. That's all the specs I remember. In those days (mid 70's) that was a big cam for the street. It's a good thing I had a Muncie 4 speed to get that heep moving. Now I'm going to be tooling around in something that has almost .600 lift with an auto and it will have good manners!
 
lowell66dart said:
Well that's good to know on the intake. Probably just going to clean up any casting flash and call it good.

This new stuff is so user friendly. I remember when I was 17 and had a 327 in my 57 Chevy hardtop. I put in an Isky 300 duration cam with .480 lift. That's all the specs I remember. In those days (mid 70's) that was a big cam for the street. It's a good thing I had a Muncie 4 speed to get that heep moving. Now I'm going to be tooling around in something that has almost .600 lift with an auto and it will have good manners!
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lol that was back when the cam grinders used to name their cams.. Crower Monarch, Crane Hydraulic Hauler, or Blazer. I can't remember what Isky named that one you had... but it was definitely a few steps up from the Mile-a-more! lol
BTW, glad to see you came around to the Mopar fold :thumbsup:
 
'63GT said:
lol that was back when the cam grinders used to name their cams.. Crower Monarch, Crane Hydraulic Hauler, or Blazer. I can't remember what Isky named that one you had... but it was definitely a few steps up from the Mile-a-more! lol
BTW, glad to see you came around to the Mopar fold :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Isky had the……
505 magnum
550 super lagerra
555 invincible
 
A little update for you guys. The engine is back together. Have about 500 miles on it. Running great. The only thing I changed was I went with the 6.1 aluminum intake. This was my first time inside of a Gen 3 and they are really easy to work on. I went with Manton pushrods thru MMX. Called with my measurements and they were at my door about four days later. I got my Cometic .070 head gaskets from Cometic in about a week. Did the foot to the floor trick to prime the oil pump three times and it fired up right up with no noise. I did have a startup tune from Johan aka Diablotoona. This is Cam Motions smallest shelf cam but it has a nice lope and you can tell the engine has been modified. Idles at 800 rpm in drive. No leaks. Still pinching myself.
Since that went so well I decided to do something about this 2.82 single traction diff. Found a Getrag 3.91 LSD entire cradle out of a 2010 manual Challenger. Swapped that in and changed the ratio with the Diablo and again no issues. Just taking it easy so far but that woke things up. Waiting on my gear lube to come in before I really beat on it. This new stuff is fun.
 
For future reference, I now keep multiple Non VVT grinds and Eagle head swap gaskets on the shelf. We keep a few different length Manton pushrods on the shelf, too. TSP grinds Non VVT cams exclusively for me , so no more waiting weeks/months for Comp, Bullet, etc.

We now have a Non VVT Tomahawk profile but it has minimum clearance required for a stock piston Non VVT engine.

 F R P Tuning dot com
 
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