lifter galley crossover tube

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when an eng works.....it just works. no one knows beyond the the basics of the internal combustion processes or oil process.
Throw new rings and bearing in it and run it......................It just works.

When it continues to brake the same parts is when most start to figure it out.(or quit racing) they start paying attention to smarter people on the subject or just have a shop build one that has proven that there's, will with stand the higher rpm or what ever........
Those that fallowed the original Street Outlaws, remember when Big Chief was swapping out main bearing every 2-3 runs and pulling the pan after every run......................He found someone that had been dealing with this problem time and time again on them Pontiac, that when revved, broke parts.
Took the block to him, had what ever done to it.............No more bearing failures!!!!!

I will never have the time or cubic dollars to ever build the top end(head/valve train) to make power or test the bottom end that was built to turn 8000 rpm.
But i like looking in deeper into the real in and outs of how an eng works. and what can be done to make it better.
And threads like these are far and few between.

When i built my block i was convince it would hold 8000 rpm all day long..........this thread and a couple other one.........well lets just day i don't have a warm and fussy feeling.
 
BB Chevy engines have relatively light pistons, given the low deck height and short r/s ratio and long strokes. Certainly lighter then a BB Mopar.

Physics don't change, but our understanding of them certainly does. Just look at what happened in the 1940's when those wacky physicists came to understand how to split the atom and put a good chunk of the Japanese real estate market under violent reconfiguration. I don't believe for a minute no one has learned anything new since 1917. More pointedly, oil flow/control in an engine involves far more than simple physics.

I'm assembling an R3/W7 engine of about 393 cubes (3.79 stroke) that will spin to about 7500RPM. I want it to make 3000HP+ but in the interest of cost, space, and reliability I am aiming for 700HP lol.

Hilborn 48 degree.jpg
 
Physics don't change, but our understanding of them certainly does. Just look at what happened in the 1940's when those wacky physicists came to understand how to split the atom and put a good chunk of the Japanese real estate market under violent reconfiguration. I don't believe for a minute no one has learned anything new since 1917. More pointedly, oil flow/control in an engine involves far more than simple physics.

Actually, oil and flow control IS just simple physics. It's not even the tough kind of physics. The thing that isn't simple is manufacturing.
Making an engine with perfect oil and flow control is 100% possible. Mass producing them is a whole other ballgame. Not only that, but what's required of a race engine is rarely required of mass produced highway engine. The development and application of information is entirely different and wholly separate. But we peons are left trying to make race engines out of highway motors that are built for two things: using less fuel, lasting just past the warranty period.

Engines with crap oil systems, or cooling systems, or other sub-optimal system wasn't designed to be a turd. It became a turd because some wonk decided to save a few pennies by cheapening the design. Using 'novel' methods to reduce parts count, machine operations, or inspection procedures is always the name of the game to cut costs. In the end we get tiny head bolts, small oil galleries, LW connecting rods, heavy flywheels and every other damn thing that blows up as soon as we hit the track.. 'tis the way of the world.
 
Everything in the paper is based on physics and not on using whale oil or unicorn piss to lubricate an engine. Bearing speed, mechanical oil consumption based on clearances, and film thickness are all discussed. There is a meaningful discussion in the appendix too. Nothing is presented as fact, only findings and observations. What I find funny is that so many people will dismiss findings from decades ago on the mere premise that it's 'old' data - but it doesn't matter when it was documented if it's based on things which don't change.

What I often find is that there's nothing new under the sun. What we use today is a result of research done back at the turn of the 19th century, we just do it better and more repeatable today but it's the same physics as they had back then. We also benefit from economies of scale which are able to produce far more complex junk at a faster rate than ever before.

What the paper basically talks about is that pressure fed from the crank journals to the rod journals experiences several forces and phenomenon which are repeatable and should inform a best practices approach to a lubrication system. First is that as engine speed increases, oil consumption at the bearings increases. There's also less time for oil to find its way from the crank journal to the rod journal which can lead to a lack of oil available in the passageway from the main to the rod. The oil in that passage is under immense pressure caused by the rotation of the crank (centrifugal effects), but if the rod clearance is excessive (side clearance was found to have zero effect, even back in 1927) then the oil gets 'consumed' too quick and runs out before it can be replenished by the mains. Larger mains clearances can increase the oil flow from the mains to the rods by an order of magnitude (!!!), and this is where grooved bearings come in, even back then. Wider, deeper grooves are always better from an oiling standpoint. Now, we're talking 2800 rpm as the 'high rev' range of these engines, so it's not like anyone is going to recommend leaving .05" wide margins on the mains of a 12k rpm prostocker or anything - but it does show where additional rod oiling can be gained and demonstrates the concepts clearly. Concepts still in use because of course they are.

Speaking of centrifugal effects on the oil for the rod journal - imagine what happens when stroke is increased? It doesn't make things better. This suggests that those of us with strokers really ought to pay more attention to oil feed and supply..

They even tested a re-routed passage from the main to the rod journal and effectively 'reversed the course' of the passage. Guess what? It reduced oil pressure and flow at the rod (duh). Which is neat because at least they demonstrated the effect physically, it's not just a theory.

Worth noting in the discussion toward the end was that the centrifugal effects also basically helped 'centrifuge' the dirt/debris out of the oil. That when oil passages were drilled blind into the rod throw, then cross-drilled from the rod journal - there was dirt and other debris found packed into the end of the blind passage - a small passage drilled through allows that trash to be ejected in a desirable direction so that it can find it's way back to the sump and get filtered and prolong engine life. Neat stuff!

Another observation was that if the oil feed from the main to the rod happens to intersect the rod journal surface where the connecting rod aligns near TDC, the oil flow is severely restricted because the pressure acting down on the rod effectively occludes the oil passage and oil film can break down and despite adequate flow the bearing can still fail. This wasn't the main topic of the paper and they refer to another paper where bright light and photography was used to directly observe a translucent gap at the bearing in order to track the existence of an oil film. Neat stuff again.

Timing was discussed briefly, and more-or-less it was found that by having oil supply at the mains aligned with the rod journal passage prior to TDC but some time after BDC, the oiling system has less trouble keeping the rod journal full of oil. Which to me, is the big take away and explains what YR is on about with the oil distribution canister concept.

What YR describes is a system which allows filtered oil to reach the mains in an area where it's advantageous for multiple reasons:
  • Oil pressure entering under the crank is going to resist downward forces from the pistons more readily. This can help prevent film breakdown due to loading.
  • Oil pressure entering near the rod journal passage while the piston is on the up-stroke allows oil to reach the rod journal as the load on the rod journal is increasing. This helps reduce the chance for the oil film to reduce at a critical time.
What YR describes is obviously meant for a max-effort type build, not just mom's grocery getter. However, the criticality of the oil system increases as stroke increases and as rpm increases. Those who really want to try and make power in the upper rpm range should not take oil timing lightly. The better the oil system performs at high rpms, the more power can be made 'up there' before the engine grenades. I'd be willing to bet that stock blocks are actually stronger than popular opinion would lead us to believe, but that oil system breakdown leads to catastrophic failure that gets pegged on 'weak blocks' instead of on poor oil flow management.

Looking around at some high effort blocks that used to be available, I see pictures of blocks with no oil pump provisions (built for dry sump) with oil holes tapped into the main caps. So for those that think this is all just chest puffing and fabrication for the sake of self-pleasure, I don't think you're fully grasping what 'max effort' means.


LOL...I forgot about the side clearance findings. How many guys to this day get their draws wadded up over side clearance!!!! And they knew back in the Stone Age it didn’t matter because the diametrical clearance set the outflow from the rods.

Too funny.
 
BB Chevy engines have relatively light pistons, given the low deck height and short r/s ratio and long strokes. Certainly lighter then a BB Mopar.

Physics don't change, but our understanding of them certainly does. Just look at what happened in the 1940's when those wacky physicists came to understand how to split the atom and put a good chunk of the Japanese real estate market under violent reconfiguration. I don't believe for a minute no one has learned anything new since 1917. More pointedly, oil flow/control in an engine involves far more than simple physics.

I'm assembling an R3/W7 engine of about 393 cubes (3.79 stroke) that will spin to about 7500RPM. I want it to make 3000HP+ but in the interest of cost, space, and reliability I am aiming for 700HP lol.

View attachment 1715561442




  • At that engine speed you don’t need to modify the oil feed system. You can use full groove mains, a HV pump and get the oil there all the time, as much as you can.
  • A quality pan, with a rear sump and a big diameter pickup tube helps bigly. A crank scraper is money well spent. The Ishahira-Johnson Teflon scraper for the drivers side and their down scraper is what I use. Worth every penny.
  • The stiff block is a much a big deal as anything. If you are using 340 mains and a 30 grade oil (maybe a 40 at that power level) you can squeeze the main clearance down to .0021-.0022ish. That helps.
  • Very cool build. Updates will be appreciated.
 
Oil control is hardly simple physics. Making anything perfect is also impossible....

Back on the topic....it's tempting to go to an external pump and pipe the oil into the front oil feed port on the R3 block. Though I am not seeing the benefit over the 'rear feed' of a stock engine. If #4 is starved when you rear feed, #2 would be starved when you front feed. I'm think a true 'loop feed' (front and rear) would be worth looking into.

oil pump.jpg
 
Oil control is hardly simple physics. Making anything perfect is also impossible....

Back on the topic....it's tempting to go to an external pump and pipe the oil into the front oil feed port on the R3 block. Though I am not seeing the benefit over the 'rear feed' of a stock engine. If #4 is starved when you rear feed, #2 would be starved when you front feed. I'm think a true 'loop feed' (front and rear) would be worth looking into.

View attachment 1715561594


Dammit I forgot to mention one other change I made when I moved all that stuff out of the pan was to use an external bypass. I’m not a fan of dumping oil (or fuel) back into the inlet side of the pump.

So I put an externally adjustable bypass in the main feed line to the distribution can. On the dyno the engine made more power up to 100 PSI. And, I put the excess oil at the front of the pan so that oil has to go past two baffles before it got back to the pickup.


The ability to control oil pressure and where the excess oil goes is a big deal at high RPM. Dumping that oil back into the inlet is a cheap way to do it.

Edit: I forgot to mention it doesn’t matter where the oil enters the system. Putting it in up front is a cleaner way to do it for external wet sump and dry sump oiling systems.

And there isn’t one SHRED of evidence that oil velocity is why the rods don’t get oil. That is completely preposterous. High pressure always goes to low pressure and the bearings are a low pressure area.

If velocity was the issue you could use a standard volume pump, or even reduce the rotor and housing height and that would fix everything. The more RPM the smaller the pump.
 
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I used to make rmote bypass valves from bbm oil pumps
good use for a worn out pump!
easy to adjust
easy to do
put the hp spring in the stock or hv pump
On a BBM it's easy to plumb at the rear of the block
IDRemeber where to tap on a SBM or if I ever did one
 
Oil control is hardly simple physics. Making anything perfect is also impossible....

Back on the topic....it's tempting to go to an external pump and pipe the oil into the front oil feed port on the R3 block. Though I am not seeing the benefit over the 'rear feed' of a stock engine. If #4 is starved when you rear feed, #2 would be starved when you front feed. I'm think a true 'loop feed' (front and rear) would be worth looking into.

View attachment 1715561594

Oil control is pretty simple when looking at how complex fluid dynamics can get. We're not dealing with supersonic flow, compressibility or latent heat or anything. It's literally just momentum, pressure, head and boundary layers. Most of which can be assumed away for a multitude of reasons. Aeration and windage are their own thing, but are well understood enough to be dealt with separately.

The idea behind the cross over is to help with mains starvation caused by the compromised OEM oil system which was intended to be easy to mass produce. Remaining constrained by that OEM routing seems silly when routing tubes isn't hard, it's just work.

Racing blocks used in sustained high rpm applications went to a priory main feed for this and other reasons and generally solved the issue, and lots of used parts show evidence of dedicated mains feeds in the cap. Seems like a bulletproof way to ensure both mains and rods remain oiled and actual physical findings support that approach. Ample grooving of the bearings can help, but only within some reasonable limit before more support is taken away than the system can handle when constrained by the main journal width of an OEM crank.

If one wanted to try and work within the OEM architecture, it should be possible to create a dedicated main feed for each journal in the main oil galley by using several spaced plugs in the lifter block off tubes. Then feed those spaced chambers with tubes tapped into the filtered oil supply at the rear of the block. Super undersized bearings with a maximum groove depth would also be a benefit, not to mention slowing the bearing velocity at the expense of absolute strength. A stepped tube could even be used to help balance flow supply to each main saddle. Similar to the way air ducts narrow down after each register.

It may even be possible to cut a deep groove into the bearing saddles of the block and route oil from the main feed to the bottom bearing shell (with a matching groove in the main cap which communicates with the groove in the bearing saddle in the block). This would be similar to what YR described, but without the external tubing. Fixing the supply to each main would still rely on addressing the supply imbalance at the main galleries though.

None of these are complex, but they are definitely outside the realm of mass production.
 
Dammit I forgot to mention one other change I made when I moved all that stuff out of the pan was to use an external bypass. I’m not a fan of dumping oil (or fuel) back into the inlet side of the pump.

So I put an externally adjustable bypass in the main feed line to the distribution can. On the dyno the engine made more power up to 100 PSI. And, I put the excess oil at the front of the pan so that oil has to go past two baffles before it got back to the pickup.


The ability to control oil pressure and where the excess oil goes is a big deal at high RPM. Dumping that oil back into the inlet is a cheap way to do it.

Edit: I forgot to mention it doesn’t matter where the oil enters the system. Putting it in up front is a cleaner way to do it for external wet sump and dry sump oiling systems.

And there isn’t one SHRED of evidence that oil velocity is why the rods don’t get oil. That is completely preposterous. High pressure always goes to low pressure and the bearings are a low pressure area.

If velocity was the issue you could use a standard volume pump, or even reduce the rotor and housing height and that would fix everything. The more RPM the smaller the pump.

Here's one to twist your noodle around. Why even use a bypass? A/C compressors use variable displacement pumps in order to help reduce parasitic loss (MPG concerns) when they don't need max volume. Why not a variable displacement oil pump that can be altered to eliminate excess work done to the oil. Less waste heat into the oil, no excess parasitic loss going into pumping oil that doesn't get used. This way the pump also doesn't need to be sized by oil demand at idle/cruise speed.

It's a simple pump design, just not cheap.
 
Dammit I forgot to mention one other change I made when I moved all that stuff out of the pan was to use an external bypass. I’m not a fan of dumping oil (or fuel) back into the inlet side of the pump.

So I put an externally adjustable bypass in the main feed line to the distribution can. On the dyno the engine made more power up to 100 PSI. And, I put the excess oil at the front of the pan so that oil has to go past two baffles before it got back to the pickup.


The ability to control oil pressure and where the excess oil goes is a big deal at high RPM. Dumping that oil back into the inlet is a cheap way to do it.
Here's one to twist your noodle around. Why even use a bypass? A/C compressors use variable displacement pumps in order to help reduce parasitic loss (MPG concerns) when they don't need max volume. Why not a variable displacement oil pump that can be altered to eliminate excess work done to the oil. Less waste heat into the oil, no excess parasitic loss going into pumping oil that doesn't get used. This way the pump also doesn't need to be sized by oil demand at idle/cruise speed.

It's a simple pump design, just not cheap.


LOL...the cost is the answer. And for mass surface transportation dumping bypass oil into the inlet isn’t a big deal.

The engineer I had look over the system had me use an external bypass. At the time I was running MFI on alcohol and I was running what was called a “pump loop” because at 8500 RPM a main and high speed bypass would get rid of enough fuel, and making the pump smaller would have killed the engine by going lean in the gear changes. So I added a bypass that dumped back into the pump inlet.

My engineer friend had me stop that as well. It’s the same principle with oil or fuel. Dumping high pressure liquids back into the inlet aerates whatever you are pumping.
 
Oh, I agree, cost is the driver. Especially the development costs involved. Neat thought experiment though. Would love to play with it, but I don't race LOL
 
No smoke and mirrors if you want to shift at 8500. It’s fine if you want to keep it well below that. You still need full groove bearings, you still need to control the leaks, and you still need to get the pick up tube as big as you can, and with a center sump pan that’s about impossible.

Well, there are people out there running faster than what you're talking about spinning way less RPM.
 
I'm not a pump experts by any means but here's why I'm guessing a variable displacement pump would fall flat....

1) An AC compressor is 'pumping' a very different medium than hot oil.

2) If the AC compressor fails, the engine doesn't blow up. I doubt a variable displacement pump would be as reliable as a simple rotor type pump.
 
Well, there are people out there running faster than what you're talking about spinning way less RPM.


What’s that got to do with it? It’s about RPM, not anything else.

I realize most guys are afraid of RPM, but some are not.

We are discussing high RPM oiling issues, not ET. And I’ll take a 287 inch Comp Eliminator car running high 8’s all day long over some hair dryer powered 7 or even 6 second deal.
 
I'm being snobby, I know, but I'd never go down the high RPM path if I had a 59 degree pushrod situation.
 
I'm being snobby, I know, but I'd never go down the high RPM path if I had a 59 degree pushrod situation.

LOL. Yep. You can do it, but it’s a nightmare. When I started there were no 48 degree LBA blocks. So you gut it out.

It takes at a minimum double taper pushrods as big in diameter as you can get in there, about 15% more spring load, the lightest valves you can afford and at a minimum a Crane Pro Series lifter with an .810 wheel and a 1 inch diameter lifter with a bigger wheel is a big help.

Of course you should have all that anyway, but you can’t cut any corners with a 59 degree LBA.
 
What’s that got to do with it? It’s about RPM, not anything else.

I realize most guys are afraid of RPM, but some are not.

We are discussing high RPM oiling issues, not ET. And I’ll take a 287 inch Comp Eliminator car running high 8’s all day long over some hair dryer powered 7 or even 6 second deal.


Trust me I'm not afraid of RPM but I do think it's STUPID to wind the heck out of something when it's not needed, sometimes even running slower from doing it. The only way I've raced the last 45 years is by weeding out mistakes and keeping costs down. High RPM comes at a cost.
 
I'm not a pump experts by any means but here's why I'm guessing a variable displacement pump would fall flat....

1) An AC compressor is 'pumping' a very different medium than hot oil.

2) If the AC compressor fails, the engine doesn't blow up. I doubt a variable displacement pump would be as reliable as a simple rotor type pump.

The AC pump is a piston type pump and can pump any sort of medium. That it can compress a gas means that they're built to very tight tolerances and clearances. Hot oil is easier to pump in comparison. The same style of pump is used in hydrostatic transmissions for tractors, lawn mowers, etc. They're typically pretty reliable, especially in larger ag equipment.

Very true, an AC pump doesn't kill the engine when it fails (usually). The additional complexity could be a drawback, but likely not a huge one. The cost would be a definitive drawback and the gains are likely small for a highway vehicle. I'm not advocating that people start building and using variable displacement pumps by any means - it just occurred to me as I was thinking about the constraints on the oiling system and the drawbacks of what's commonly used.

There's typically multiple pistons/cylinders in a variable displacement AC pump which would give redundancy. There's also ways to limit the min volume, so if the 'variable' part fails, it would still be set to deliver a minimum of oil.

A simple rotor pump can lose the relief valve/spring or get jammed by gunk and fail catastrophically too.
 
Trust me I'm not afraid of RPM but I do think it's STUPID to wind the heck out of something when it's not needed, sometimes even running slower from doing it. The only way I've raced the last 45 years is by weeding out mistakes and keeping costs down. High RPM comes at a cost.


I get it. It’s not for YOU. The DONT do it. And don’t come in here and add NOTHING because you’ve never done it.

Pretty simple really.
 
What’s that got to do with it? It’s about RPM, not anything else.

I realize most guys are afraid of RPM, but some are not.

We are discussing high RPM oiling issues, not ET. And I’ll take a 287 inch Comp Eliminator car running high 8’s all day long over some hair dryer powered 7 or even 6 second deal.

I'm simply saying it's totally UNNECESSARY. That's all. Just stupid. That's "MY" opinion and I'm stickin to it. lol
 
Yes Sir!!! What every you say SIR. How long has it been since YOU have raced, SIR???
if you could squeeze another. 2000 , rpm out of your engine and be reliable , what is wrong with that ? Keep everything as light as possible get proper oiling that would be great but the cost might be a bit much .
 
if you could squeeze another. 2000 , rpm out of your engine and be reliable , what is wrong with that ? Keep everything as light as possible get proper oiling that would be great but the cost might be a bit much .


First off most of those of us that do race are bracket racers so if, and I said if I could gain .10 by upping my rpm level 2000 rpm what did I gain. I’m not fast by any means but 9.50’s in a 7500.00 total cost build that is now in its fifth year can’t be done shifting at 8500 rpm. Most can’t put together a 7000 rpm build that runs to its potential. Anyone that knows me can agree that I race my car a lot. I’m not a test n tuner that goes to a coastal track looking for that one hit wonder “new best”. I lowered my rpm from 7000 to 6800 rpm last year and 6800 to 6600 rpm this year and do you know what I lost??? Not a damn thing, as it still runs the same as it did five years ago. Same valve springs, same rod and main bearings. Cheap azz Eagle rotating assembly and I’m not a fan of Eagle products. But it came in the parts I bought.
 
Yes Sir!!! What every you say SIR. How long has it been since YOU have raced, SIR???


WTF difference does that make? I’ll say straight up **** the track and all that it includes.

If going to the track makes you smart, why are there so many idiots there? It doesn’t take much to look at MPH and see how many underachieving pieces of shot out there. The track doesn't make you smart.

As I’ve said before, I have NEVER given a single **** about bracket racing. My goal was Modified, but NHRA killed it. It lived on in AHRA, but that was killed by NHRA doing its dirty work.

Bracket racing is BORING. I’d rather golf or fish before bracket racing. And yes, I did plenty of it. It eats ***. Spectators find it idiotic, and it is. So, **** bracket racing.

The POINT is we all get YOU don’t want to use RPM. We ALL get that YOU use shoe polish as our tune up. We ALL get that going .2 quicker doesn’t mean **** to you. We ALL get it.

You’ve said what you want, now stop dropping your bullshit in this thread. You can’t add **** because YOU have never done it. The thread isn’t about bracket racing. It’s about oiling the bearings at RACE engine speeds.

BTW, why port your heads and use offset rockers if HORSEPOWER doesn't matter when your tune up is in a shoe polish bottle? It’s IGNORANT to spend all that time, and money for .2’s, maybe less. See my point?
 
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