Looking for help, or ideas.

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I’m hoping you didn’t use those crappy new style UCA cam bolts, with 1/2 of the diameter shaved off of the bolt itself. When I did my 66, I used the new cam bolts that came with the kit, and they wouldn’t tighten down for ****, causing the same problem as you’re having. I started saving all the upper cam bolts I came across after that, and only use the used ones now.

Funny thing on my car was if I pushed it forward to roll it around the garage, it would do what you’re experiencing, although not to that severe of a degree. Pushing it backwards set the wheel back in place, or very close to it. So I tightened the bolts as best I could, headed the 2 miles to town with the used bolts in hand, and had the alignment shop change them and realign the car. No problems since.
 
@Kims1972Dart ,
Can you post a few pics, so we can help you?
These are a few pics from my left (drivers) side upper control arms and tie rods with proper alignment.
20220702_124453.jpg
20220702_124359.jpg
20220702_124303.jpg
 
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If its changing when you are moving the car forward and back, something it not tightened down or something is broke. Typically that situation would be a broken stud hole in the K-member that the lower control arm stud hole goes into. OR the lower control arm stud nut is loose.

What were the "issues" with the old K-member you took out. Whatever happened to it, may have happened to other parts of the car.
 
autoxcuda said:
If its changing when you are moving the car forward and back, something it not tightened down or something is broke. Typically that situation would be a broken stud hole in the K-member that the lower control arm stud hole goes into. OR the lower control arm stud nut is loose.

What were the "issues" with the old K-member you took out. Whatever happened to it, may have happened to other parts of the car.
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The original K-member had been welded on, not sure why, but the welding was horrible, so decided it was better to replace, I'm gonna climb around under it now and recheck all fastening points for tightness and got someone to help me so I can be outside car and see if I can figure out what is actually moving
 
Kims1972Dart said:
The original K-member had been welded on, not sure why, but the welding was horrible, so decided it was better to replace, I'm gonna climb around under it now and recheck all fastening points for tightness and got someone to help me so I can be outside car and see if I can figure out what is actually moving
Click to expand...

It takes two people. One to move the: steering wheel back and forth, tire in and out from top, in and tire out from side, etc... while you are under the car eyeballing things 8 inches away up close.

I bet you see something.
 
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I know alot of stuff is getting thrown at you, but...
Another way to ck for a loose ball joint, or suspension is to jack up the wheel from under the lower control arm.
This will keep the torsion bar acting as if the wheel was on flat ground.
If you jack up from the frame, the torsion bar will unload and take up the slack (wherever it may be).
Then wiggle the tire from the 3 and 9 o'clock position, back and forth.
Also in and out from the 12 and 6 o'clock positions.
You should be able to see whats loose.
Good luck.
Joe
 
cosgig said:
I’m hoping you didn’t use those crappy new style UCA cam bolts, with 1/2 of the diameter shaved off of the bolt itself. When I did my 66, I used the new cam bolts that came with the kit, and they wouldn’t tighten down for ****, causing the same problem as you’re having. I started saving all the upper cam bolts I came across after that, and only use the used ones now.

Funny thing on my car was if I pushed it forward to roll it around the garage, it would do what you’re experiencing, although not to that severe of a degree. Pushing it backwards set the wheel back in place, or very close to it. So I tightened the bolts as best I could, headed the 2 miles to town with the used bolts in hand, and had the alignment shop change them and realign the car. No problems since.
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Not all the reproduction UCA bolts are crappy, just the cheap ones.

There was also a bunch of them that didn’t have the threads cut far enough down the shank, so the nut would tighten and bottom out before the bolt clamped the bushing in the mount. That would allow the UCA to walk back and forth in the mount.
 
Here is what I think is going on.


Toe in (passanger side tire in these examples)
  1. The car is pushed forward.
  2. The bottom of the tire is in contact with the ground.
  3. The tire is trying to turn left
  4. The bottom of the tire is pushed under the car
  5. The top of the tire is pushed out from under the car
  6. The net result is negative camber

Toe out (passanger side tire in these examples

  1. The car is pushed forward.
  2. The bottom of the tire is in contact with the ground.
  3. The tire is trying to turn right
  4. The bottom of the tire is pushed out from under the car
  5. The top of the tire is pushed in toward the car
  6. The net result is positive camber
Also the forces are multiplicative, a little more forward movent equals a lot more camber. The suspension has a lot of slop, even when new with stock rubber type bushings.
 
Dana67Dart said:
Also the forces are multiplicative, a little more forward movent equals a lot more camber. The suspension has a lot of slop, even when new with stock rubber type bushings.
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While I agree that some incorrect settings can compound, that’s not just slop. That has to be more than 4 degrees of negative camber. That’s not even close to something you can get out of the stock components with rubber bushings unless something is loose or broken.
 
72bluNblu said:
While I agree that some incorrect settings can compound, that’s not just slop. That has to be more than 4 degrees of negative camber. That’s not even close to something you can get out of the stock components with rubber bushings unless something is loose or broken
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There is a 60s video showing the darts handling. When the dart hard corners the tires and wheels lean excessively. Yes there is body roll compounding the angles but it's there. Also I have seen dart drag cars coming down from a wheel stand and the front wheels are wabbling all over the place on impact. Yes more extream forces at play.

In a video of a Corvair corning they had a camera looking at the front tires the wheel is leaning excessively and the tire is almost rolled up under the wheel

Again extream forces at play.

I had a solid front axel 56 Ford pickup.
The tierod broke. While moving forward one wheel would turn out and the front of the truck would rise then go back to center and fall. Quite a wild ride at 5 to 10mph.

This is just my opinion from my knowledge base not having seen the car in person.
 
Dana67Dart said:
There is a 60s video showing the darts handling. When the dart hard corners the tires and wheels lean excessively. Yes there is body roll compounding the angles but it's there. Also I have seen dart drag cars coming down from a wheel stand and the front wheels are wabbling all over the place on impact. Yes more extream forces at play.

In a video of a Corvair corning they had a camera looking at the front tires the wheel is leaning excessively and the tire is almost rolled up under the wheel

Again extream forces at play.

I had a solid front axel 56 Ford pickup.
The tierod broke. While moving forward one wheel would turn out and the front of the truck would rise then go back to center and fall. Quite a wild ride at 5 to 10mph.

This is just my opinion from my knowledge base not having seen the car in person.
Click to expand...

Yeah but this is literally a car in a driveway being rolled back and forth. There are no extreme forces.

Something is broken, or moving around.
 
Too much toe with tires that grip WILL cause this. I didn't believe it when I was first told, but then I saw it on my son's Barracuda. Get the car to a shop that KNOWS Mopar alignments.
 
72bluNblu said:
Yeah but this is literally a car in a driveway being rolled back and forth. There are no extreme forces.

Something is broken, or moving around
Click to expand...

It's being moved under its own power.

Time will tell!
 
I think I know exactly what your problem is. I ran into this several times when I was an alignment tech. Hyup, it fooled me one-time, but like you, it showed up immediately when backing up and braking.
The new MOOG UCA cambolts do not have enough threading on them. You tighten them up alrighty but there is little or no clamping going on, as the nuts are just bottomed on the threads. It feels tight, but is not.
My solution was to go get some hardened washers about 1/8" thick and slip one on at each end; one under the head of the bolt, and the other under the nut. Never had a problem after that.
 
AJ/FormS said:
I think I know exactly what your problem is. I ran into this several times when I was an alignment tech. Hyup, it fooled me one-time, but like you, it showed up immediately when backing up and braking.
The new MOOG UCA cambolts do not have enough threading on them. You tighten them up alrighty but there is little or no clamping going on, as the nuts are just bottomed on the threads. It feels tight, but is not.
My solution was to go get some hardened washers about 1/8" thick and slip one on at each end; one under the head of the bolt, and the other under the nut. Never had a problem after that.
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Yeah, just like I said in post #35.

But I wouldn’t mess with washers. If they’re not right, get the right bolts. Moog is garbage nowadays.

If the original bolts aren’t useable I’d get these, Proforged seems to be making much better reproductions than Moog and others lately.

1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 120-10009 Proforged Camber Bolts | Summit Racing
 
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72bluNblu said:
That would allow the UCA to walk back and forth in the mount.
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wouldn't the off-center alignment washer prevent most if not all of that unless the bolt and washer was able to rotate and rotating?

Easy to check, put a wrench on the bolt head and see if the bolt -nut-off center washers rotate as a unit with less the torque spec (65 ftlb torque)

upload_2022-7-3_6-56-11.png
 
Dana67Dart said:
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wouldn't the off-center alignment washer prevent most if not all of that unless the bolt and washer was able to rotate and rotating?

Easy to check, put a wrench on the bolt head and see if the bolt -nut-off center washers rotate as a unit with less the torque spec (65 ftlb torque)

View attachment 1715951032
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You are correct, assuming that the tabs to hold the eccentrics aren’t damaged the bolt has to spin in order for the UCA to move.

But they should rotate with a lot less than the required torque spec. And the forces from the tires, especially if the toe or other alignment settings are out of wack, are enough to spin the bolts by pulling on the UCA if the bolts aren’t actually clamping they eccentrics onto the mounts.

It also depends on how wrong the thread location is, because the eccentrics may not be in proper contact with the tabs that will force them to rotate.
 
72bluNblu said:
But they should rotate with a lot less than the required torque spec
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My point was if you wrench on the BOLT head with enough force you might be able to turn the entire assembly. If the nut is truly bottomed on the bolt it should be far less force than the torque spec.
 
72bluNblu said:
Yeah, just like I said in post #35.

But I wouldn’t mess with washers. If they’re not right, get the right bolts. Moog is garbage nowadays.

If the original bolts aren’t useable I’d get these, Proforged seems to be making much better reproductions than Moog and others lately.

1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 120-10009 Proforged Camber Bolts | Summit Racing
Click to expand...
I agree with you. I'd also say that Moog has been garbage for several years. They moved production to Asia at least, I think, 7 years ago.
 
You have a massive toe out on one wheel..
if you get that rectified even if camber and castor are totally wrong it will stop doing that "raising one side and splaying the wheels....." thing....

this method aint right but its not all wrong either...it will get you to an alignment place.

get under car with the front on ramps
its needs to be on its suspension and at ride height

measure the distance between the cross link ends (centre of track rod inner joint head, or something obvious and the same both sides, and the edge of the front subframe on both sides. turn steering until it is the same both sides.

get a long piece of string 2 plumb/bob weights and 2 stands
place 1 behind car
1 in front
use it as your datum

run string across the rear tyre from rear to front and across the front tyre
with string just kissing rear tyre in 2 places or just off the front edge (diff will have slight toe in as well) and bulging out around the badly adjusted front tyre. string will hit front or rear of the front. adjust track rod sleeve on that side until the front wheel is facing forward and the string kisses both front and rear of the front tyre and the rear tyre. adjust string position to check if necessary.
do the same on the other side.

not accurate but better than nothing.

next get out your foot and a half long builders level
clamp it virtically to the front wheel. with elastic or duck/duct tape... across rim or tyre....
wind the front cam bolt so the fat side of the washer faces the centre of the car
wind the rear cam bolt so the fat side of washer faces way from the centre of the car. bounce the car or roll it back and forward a bit
then wind the rear one back until your builders level shows the wheel is upright (bubble in the middle) . roll car
do the other side.

roll car back and forth
its should now be easy, and one side should not lift nor its wheel splay out

last bit
get 2 pins and your long string

stick pins in the center line of tread on the back of each tyre
tie string to one side
and run it under car to the other side... roll car back slightly so string passes under without hitting anything
mark string with sharpie where it passes over the oposite pin.

roll car forward so that pins go over top of wheel and face forward and down at a smilar angle to before
apply string.
check the mark
if it is at the pin or doesn't quite reach.. some more adjustment necessary

adjust track rod sleeves equally both sides to get your mark on sting about 1/8 of an inch past the pin.
you want the wheels to toe in about 1/8 of an inch using this crap method.
remove pins when done. would be a shame to puncture 2 tyres :)

NOW you can see if anything is wrong
You can't tell if anything is wrong until you get to this ballpark position

you should be able to roll car back and forward at will with nothing odd happening.
if you still have a problem.. well somoen above will have mentioned it i'm sure...

not accurate but good enough to drive to a place to get an alignment done.
it may pull slightly left or right but you tyres will not be ruined by a short journey

in theory you have set it up with the steering wheel in the middle
the toe in set slightly too large
near enough zero camber (perfect for granny drving)
and a much castor as is possible with zero camber (probably heavier than previoulsy at parking speed)

steering should at least self centre to more or less straight on

Dave
 
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