Lower control arm parallel to ground - alignment problems?

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Red383

Red383

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I am to the point on my Dart Swinger build that I need to get the car aligned. I am running 17" wheels with 245/45 tires, with 1.xx torsion bars.

I have the ride height in the from about where I like it.
dr side.jpg


But my lower control arms are basically parallel to the ground, and looking at the service manual, it states the ride height measurement A should always be greater than B. I'm not sure that it is.
Lower CA.jpg


Do I just throw out the service manual process and align the Caster/Camber/toe to the Skosh chart?

I have read through a lot of the alignment threads on here but I am not sure that I have found the answer. Thanks for the help!
 
Just ignore the ride height stuff in the service manual and get it aligned using the skosh chart. It will be fine.

That's about where I run my ride height as well.
 
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Red383 said:
Just some cheap Monroe? stock shocks to start out with.
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Be aware that with the bigger torsion bars, cheap shocks can't control them and it may ride rough. At the same time, I've got a buddy with a BB Dart that runs 1.03 TB's and (I think) regular shocks and doesn't complain about the ride so maybe it won't be an issue. And I have ridden in his car and don't remember it being rough either.

I run .99 TB's and Bilstein's and love how it rides, FWIW.

Just an FYI.
 
I have the 1.03 bars and monroes but haven't driven yet, have you driven yours much? i assume no issues?
 
Icetech said:
I have the 1.03 bars and monroes but haven't driven yet, have you driven yours much? i assume no issues?
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I have not driven it yet, I figured these would get me started and then I can upgrade down the road.
 
Red383 said:
I have not driven it yet, I figured these would get me started and then I can upgrade down the road.
Click to expand...

I honestly prefer cheap shocks.. every time i have bought expensive ones it made the car ride like a brick...
 
I have 17's on my '72 with the same tires, have tried that torsion bar and stock. It's going to ride rough, Bilstein shocks. Doesn't drive well either, always have to drive it. I will say that I haven't experimented with getting the numbers on front end alignment. Been too busy. I like the look of 17's, but ride rough, no side wall.

20240610_164250.jpg
 
CRUZE 418 said:
I have 17's on my '72 with the same tires, have tried that torsion bar and stock. It's going to ride rough, Bilstein shocks. Doesn't drive well either, always have to drive it. I will say that I haven't experimented with getting the numbers on front end alignment. Been too busy. I like the look of 17's, but ride rough, no side wall.

View attachment 1716289681
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The sidewall thing is why i don't like 17s... here in michigan i want tires like balloons to soak up the horrible roads
 
CRUZE 418 said:
I have 17's on my '72 with the same tires, have tried that torsion bar and stock. It's going to ride rough, Bilstein shocks. Doesn't drive well either, always have to drive it. I will say that I haven't experimented with getting the numbers on front end alignment. Been too busy. I like the look of 17's, but ride rough, no side wall.

View attachment 1716289681
Click to expand...

Sounds like your expectations of "rides nice" are different than mine. I love how mine rides, about the same as my Challenger R/T did and (I expect) any newer Mustang GT. Not knocking your opinion.

In regards to your "always have to drive it" comment, I have an issue with mine where I was only able to get +1 degree of caster on the right and settled for that on both until I get it figured out. So I too have to drive mine when it is a little bumpy or rutted. But I am certain that with more caster it will drive great. Is it possible that your wheels/tires/TB/shocks have nothing to do with how it drives and it is more that you have an alignment that is causing your issue?
 
DionR said:
Sounds like your expectations of "rides nice" are different than mine. I love how mine rides, about the same as my Challenger R/T did and (I expect) any newer Mustang GT. Not knocking your opinion.

In regards to your "always have to drive it" comment, I have an issue with mine where I was only able to get +1 degree of caster on the right and settled for that on both until I get it figured out. So I too have to drive mine when it is a little bumpy or rutted. But I am certain that with more caster it will drive great. Is it possible that your wheels/tires/TB/shocks have nothing to do with how it drives and it is more that you have an alignment that is causing your issue?
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I just put offset bushings in mine and can't hit 2* of caster :( was hoping for 4... not sure what the deal is.. MIGHT be too thick of UCA rod bushings pushing it back..
 
Icetech said:
I just put offset bushings in mine and can't hit 2* of caster :( was hoping for 4... not sure what the deal is.. MIGHT be too thick of UCA rod bushings pushing it back..
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I had up to +7 on the left and offset bushings on both UCA's. I did adjustable strut rods and while I set them up to move freely I suspect I have one too long and the other too short. But I haven't had the time to check yet.
 
DionR said:
I had up to +7 on the left and offset bushings on both UCA's. I did adjustable strut rods and while I set them up to move freely I suspect I have one too long and the other too short. But I haven't had the time to check yet.
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7?!! WTF... i put all 4 offsets in.. thinking ohh yeah.. here comes +5.... i got +1 and +1.9 with the back full back and front forward.. that was just a quick check.. i need to get my ride height and everything setup all the way still but not happy with that so far
 
Yes, all of the above is possible. I just haven't put time aside to play with it. That's on me. Lotta rough roads around here! I have Gerst front and 4-link rear on my other Dart, coil overs, manual steering, it has 15" wheels, absolutely no comparison in the ride and steering difference between the two. The '72 has power steering.
Back to the orginal question.
 
Icetech said:
I honestly prefer cheap shocks.. every time i have bought expensive ones it made the car ride like a brick...
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not sure about that.. i went from 1" bars with KYB shocks to 1.08 bars with bilstein shocks and the ride got way way way better....
 
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quick question for you guys if you have done your own alignments.. not sure how level my garage floor is, to zero the gauge to check camber is the side of a frame rail ok? or is there a good flat spot that would work for that?
 
Center of cowl, core support, hood, roof, etc and subtract 90 degrees and see if that is any different than the side of the rail you want to use.

A looks greater than B in your pic. Another vote for not critical to the alignment.
 
Floats like a butterfly stings like a bee.
235/60-14s with 1.03s, ancient Munroe adustables from the 70s, double Moogs, and factory strut-rods pulled forward. I got 7 degrees on one side, at zero camber. But by 1/2* negative on the other it was down to 3.5 degrees so I evened it up.

Initially I set my ride height to 5.5 inches to the lowest point of the K, but I kept hitting my lowered-sump oil-pan on stuff, so I raised it to a hair under 6". Which seems to be ok. I had to make a lil skidplate cuz I kept cracking the pan and I'm not a very good welder
 
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AJ/FormS said:
Floats like a butterfly stings like a bee.
235/60-14s with 1.03s, ancient Munroe adustables from the 70s, double Moogs, and factory strut-rods pulled forward. I got 7 degrees on one side, at zero camber. But by 1/2* negative on the other it was down to 3.5 degrees so I evened it up.

Initially I set my ride height to 5.5 inches to the lowest point of the K, but I kept hitting stuff, so I raised it to a hair under 6". Which seems to be ok.
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how did you pull the stock struts forward? cut the bushings in half? and thanks for the ride height.. had no idea what i was gonna set to :) also.. i believe i have to pull the torsion bars out and lcas back to get the struts out?
 
That was almost 25 years ago....
I used the two-piece ones.
IIRC;
I cut some off the rear poly, and washered the fronts; but I seem to remember that there was a center spacer tube that had to be shortened to restore the preload.
I had used Poly LCA bushings, and they are still in there. They didn't seem to mind a lil preload.

IIRC my lower control arms ended up at or near Zero ride height when measured the Mopar way. which IIRC makes them go negative camber pretty fast around the turns. No biggie, I left the bumpstops in, and sometimes I ride around a turn on the bumpstop. But sometimes the tires let go and she starts to plow. No biggie, a lil throttle and the rear catches up. See with 5.5" sidewalls I can bounce off most curbs around here, with no damage ........ just try that with 17s. Those front wheels of mine, except for one summer in 2004, are the same wheels I installed back in 1999. And the 15x10rears were installed around 2003 maybe 04.
I broke a piece out of one of those once, but I went back for the piece,, and had a guy weld it back in; it was just aluminum and welded easy. Then I finished it.

You guys with 318s at 95psi, have no idea do you, lol. You need a hi-pressure 360, with a broad nearly flat torque curve so you can adjust the power-level, in mid-slide, so you can get the front plow back under control. 95 psi is about half of what you need. But um you know, a 288/292 cam sounds pretty cool.............. but I digress, lol.
 
Icetech said:
correct on shaving the bushings down also? i think the aftermarket ones might be thicker than stock
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short answer: it depends

mfg'ing thicknesses are all over the place, so better to eyeball it and decide than to say yeah for chure.

if going on an early car, with a mish-mosh of parts, most definitely going to be some adjustment. but like i said, there's no real consensus as to what thickness is made between the suppliers.
 
Red383 said:
I am to the point on my Dart Swinger build that I need to get the car aligned. I am running 17" wheels with 245/45 tires, with 1.xx torsion bars.

I have the ride height in the from about where I like it.
View attachment 1716289598

But my lower control arms are basically parallel to the ground, and looking at the service manual, it states the ride height measurement A should always be greater than B. I'm not sure that it is.
View attachment 1716289601

Do I just throw out the service manual process and align the Caster/Camber/toe to the Skosh chart?

I have read through a lot of the alignment threads on here but I am not sure that I have found the answer. Thanks for the help!
Click to expand...

Correct, throw the service manual out the window regarding ride height and the alignment specs. Use the SKOSH chart for the alignment.

If you don't have offset bushings in the UCA's, you will likely need them to get your alignment where you need it to be

You will need to either cut down those bump stops or run button style bump stops. You don't have enough travel between your bump stop and your frame horn, you'll always be on the bump stops which will cause a rougher ride. You may also need to run a taller upper bump stop to keep the torsion bar adjusters loaded at full suspension extension. You're effectively recentering your range of suspension travel around your new ride height...

lowers- Energy Suspension 9.9132G Energy Suspension Bump Stops | Summit Racing

uppers- Energy Suspension 9.9136G Energy Suspension Bump Stops | Summit Racing

As others have already mentioned, you'd be better off with better shocks. RCD Bilsteins are very nice. But I'd rather run those Monroe's you've got than KYB's. I have too, run the replacement Monroe's with 1" torsion bars. Not ideal, but not terrible. KYB's are trash.

I run my Duster so that A-B is 0. I also use SPC adjustable UCA's and QA1 tubular LCA's, the latter of which adds some suspension travel because of their shorter profile height vs a stock LCA. And the bump stops I listed, although I run the upper with an additional 1/4" spacer to keep tension on my 1.12" torsion bars. You will probably find that you're at the absolute limit for ride height, unless your 1.XX bars are closer to 1.12" than they are 1.03".
IMG_7666.jpeg
 
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