My 422 smallblock build

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Lots of zinc in an old school 4777.

Thread hijack-
Carb flow testing - Don Terrill’s Speed-Talk
Thx PRH and Newbomb. I would have assumed a manufacturer would be comparing apples to apples but in reading the link, that's clearly not the case and the flows vary all over the map. Makes it harder to shop for something different but I'll be mapping out the elements in mine and comparing them to anything I might try.
 
Let’s seeeeee…….
$921 for a zinc cast HP950, or $752 for an aluminum Brawler 850 with billet metering blocks and baseplate.

I know which way I’d go.

(There’s also ATM and Proform 850’s for even less $$$)
And I know which way I’ll be going.
 
I would have assumed a manufacturer would be comparing apples to apples

It’s worse than you think.
Just within the “Holley” brand name, not including the QFT or Brawler brands, there are 3 “950’s”……..that are dimensionally different from each other.
 
@PRH Can you elaborate? My builder was actually recommending both of those carbs, but I chose the Holley for aesthetic reasons. I'm doing an old school build and am not interested in a purple or bright carb.
 
I’m just referencing “bang for the buck”.
The extra $$$ for the 80496 doesn’t really buy you any performance.
Fundamentally there’s nothing wrong with the 80496.
I have one I use as a dyno mule for engines in the 550-700hp range.

If “the look” is what you’re after, and are willing to fork out the extra $$$ to have that…..go for it.
 
You could use a TQ & be happier still.....they flow over 900 cfm....& have unmatched throttle response for the street.

img398.jpg
 
So I’ve been tweaking the tune up on the 422 for a week or so now. Got things pretty much in the ballpark as far as timing and fuel. She likes to idle right around 950-1000 rpm at 20* static timing with an FBO plate limiting the mechanical advance to 34*, all in by 2200rpm. I’ll be attempting to use full manifold vacuum for the vacuum advance tuning to try and maximize fuel economy and drivability on the street.
Planning to spend a day this weekend at the drag strip to do some more tuning and have some fun. Really anxious to see what numbers it can lay down. Any guesses? Previous best with the tired old 318 was [email protected]. Hopefully we can do a few hun better .

:lol:
 
So I’ve been tweaking the tune up on the 422 for a week or so now. Got things pretty much in the ballpark as far as timing and fuel. She likes to idle right around 950-1000 rpm at 20* static timing with an FBO plate limiting the mechanical advance to 34*, all in by 2200rpm. I’ll be attempting to use full manifold vacuum for the vacuum advance tuning to try and maximize fuel economy and drivability on the street.
Planning to spend a day this weekend at the drag strip to do some more tuning and have some fun. Really anxious to see what numbers it can lay down. Any guesses? Previous best with the tired old 318 was [email protected]. Hopefully we can do a few hun better .

:lol:


No offense but I can guarantee that your engine doesn’t want full timing at 2200. You are killing power around and below peak torque.
 
No offense but I can guarantee that your engine doesn’t want full timing at 2200. You are killing power around and below peak torque.
None taken.
Obviously the tune up will continue to evolve. Unfortunately, there is little chance of getting it onto a dyno so knowing where it will make peak torque will be a challenge so it would just be guessing anyway.
 
None taken.
Obviously the tune up will continue to evolve. Unfortunately, there is little chance of getting it onto a dyno so knowing where it will make peak torque will be a challenge so it would just be guessing anyway.

Didn’t your stuff go over a dyno already??

I have a hard time keeping these builds in my mind. Comes with old age I suppose.
 
Wellllllllll, took another step backwards today. Fired up the car after work today noticed that the rocker noise on the driver side seemed a little louder than normal. Thinking that it was probably just the valve lash being a touch loose, I let it warm up on high idle.
When the noise didn’t change with some heat in the motor I shut it down and decided to pull the valve cover and check the lash. Well, it was loose alright. Somehow the pushrod had come unseated from the rocker adjuster and the top of the pushrod commenced to beating the adjuster to death.
IMG_6156.jpeg

Upon further investigation, I noticed that a few of the pushrods are getting discolored on the rocker end due to getting really overheated. That tells me we have an oiling issue at the rockers. The gauge reads 75psi cold, 60psi at cruise, and 40psi hot idle. So she’s making good pressure and it is a HV pump. Must be a restriction somewhere in the rocker shaft assembly.
IMG_6159.jpeg
IMG_6157.jpeg

The plan is to remove the oil pump drive and install my priming tool and spin the pump to see what’s going on with the oil at the rockers.
 
Wellllllllll, took another step backwards today. Fired up the car after work today noticed that the rocker noise on the driver side seemed a little louder than normal. Thinking that it was probably just the valve lash being a touch loose, I let it warm up on high idle.
When the noise didn’t change with some heat in the motor I shut it down and decided to pull the valve cover and check the lash. Well, it was loose alright. Somehow the pushrod had come unseated from the rocker adjuster and the top of the pushrod commenced to beating the adjuster to death. View attachment 1716296012
Upon further investigation, I noticed that a few of the pushrods are getting discolored on the rocker end due to getting really overheated. That tells me we have an oiling issue at the rockers. The gauge reads 75psi cold, 60psi at cruise, and 40psi hot idle. So she’s making good pressure and it is a HV pump. Must be a restriction somewhere in the rocker shaft assembly.
View attachment 1716296016View attachment 1716296018
The plan is to remove the oil pump drive and install my priming tool and spin the pump to see what’s going on with the oil at the rockers.


No offense but your pushrods are way too short. The Chrysler recommendation is the adjuster (at lash) should be out 9/32 (about .281 thou) and I think plus .050 minus .000.

That said, there is more bad news. At some point no matter what you do you will smoke adjusters. And AFAIK there are two and only two fixes.

IMO if you have the money now is the time to step up to T&D or Jesel rockers and be done.

If that’s not doable then the fix is simple to do (relatively) but it’s a beeotch to explain.

The problem is, and Chrysler has been lying about it since I figured it out in about 1994ish.

I sent them about 10 pages of documentation with detailed pictures and explanations. They said I was wrong and I told them they were stupid or liars. Or both.

The upshot is (and I’m 99.999% sure it was never fixed because I have brand new, never used W2 shafts from about 2005 and they are wrong. So the fix is the responsibility of the end user.

Anyway the upshot is Chrysler, to the very best of my knowledge that Chrysler NEVER changed the oil hole location in the shafts to match the W2 offset.

Again, to the very best of my knowledge every W2 ever produced for Chrysler has the oil holes clocked for the TA offset.

What that means is the oil hole in the shaft NEVER lines up with the hole in the rocker. At that point you are oiling the adjusters off the oil mist in the valve covers because you ain’t getting any oil out of the holes for the adjusters.

You can get by quite a bit with the oil mist in the valve covers but eventually it will bite you in the ***. HARD. That’s appears to be where you are now.

The fix is to mock up the shafts and rockers as they are exactly on the engine. You need to apply machinists bluing on the shafts. And leave the adjusters out.

Once it’s all mocked up, you take a small scribe and go through the oil hole in the rocker and mark the shaft.

Then you have to disassemble everything. Then I mount the shaft in a mill and using carbide tooling I drill the holes in the shaft where Chrysler SHOULD have put them.

At that point, you can run at least 360 months seat and 900 plus over the nose and spin it up to 8500 on a regular basis.

I know that because I have done it.

It’s a big **** sandwich. I’ll eat it again when I do the W2 engine. Unless I can sell the valve gear I have and buy T&D.
 
No offense but your pushrods are way too short. The Chrysler recommendation is the adjuster (at lash) should be out 9/32 (about .281 thou) and I think plus .050 minus .000.

That said, there is more bad news. At some point no matter what you do you will smoke adjusters. And AFAIK there are two and only two fixes.

IMO if you have the money now is the time to step up to T&D or Jesel rockers and be done.

If that’s not doable then the fix is simple to do (relatively) but it’s a beeotch to explain.

The problem is, and Chrysler has been lying about it since I figured it out in about 1994ish.

I sent them about 10 pages of documentation with detailed pictures and explanations. They said I was wrong and I told them they were stupid or liars. Or both.

The upshot is (and I’m 99.999% sure it was never fixed because I have brand new, never used W2 shafts from about 2005 and they are wrong. So the fix is the responsibility of the end user.

Anyway the upshot is Chrysler, to the very best of my knowledge that Chrysler NEVER changed the oil hole location in the shafts to match the W2 offset.

Again, to the very best of my knowledge every W2 ever produced for Chrysler has the oil holes clocked for the TA offset.

What that means is the oil hole in the shaft NEVER lines up with the hole in the rocker. At that point you are oiling the adjusters off the oil mist in the valve covers because you ain’t getting any oil out of the holes for the adjusters.

You can get by quite a bit with the oil mist in the valve covers but eventually it will bite you in the ***. HARD. That’s appears to be where you are now.

The fix is to mock up the shafts and rockers as they are exactly on the engine. You need to apply machinists bluing on the shafts. And leave the adjusters out.

Once it’s all mocked up, you take a small scribe and go through the oil hole in the rocker and mark the shaft.

Then you have to disassemble everything. Then I mount the shaft in a mill and using carbide tooling I drill the holes in the shaft where Chrysler SHOULD have put them.

At that point, you can run at least 360 months seat and 900 plus over the nose and spin it up to 8500 on a regular basis.

I know that because I have done it.

It’s a big **** sandwich. I’ll eat it again when I do the W2 engine. Unless I can sell the valve gear I have and buy T&D.
The T&D or Jesel option is out. Pretty sure those require pushrod oiling and my block is tubed so no bueno there.
Re-drilling the shafts sounds like a pain in the *** but possible I suppose. There’s gotta be another option.
I have the shafts that @Rocket sells here on the forum, not sure how the holes compare to Chrysler shafts but they do have threaded plugs in the ends. Maybe I can fabricate a spray bar setup from the threaded end.

And yes, I agree my pushrods are too short. They will be swapped out in the future.
 
The T&D or Jesel option is out. Pretty sure those require pushrod oiling and my block is tubed so no bueno there.
Re-drilling the shafts sounds like a pain in the *** but possible I suppose. There’s gotta be another option.
I have the shafts that @Rocket sells here on the forum, not sure how the holes compare to Chrysler shafts but they do have threaded plugs in the ends. Maybe I can fabricate a spray bar setup from the threaded end.

And yes, I agree my pushrods are too short. They will be swapped out in the future.


Are your stands and shafts offset? If not then I’m not 100% sure the oil holes are off on those. I never used anything but the offset stuff.

If they aren’t offset then I’d bet a lot of money the holes in the shafts that Rocket has are in the correct location.

That being the case only if the holes in the non offset shafts you have are wrong.
 
Are your stands and shafts offset? If not then I’m not 100% sure the oil holes are off on those. I never used anything but the offset stuff.

If they aren’t offset then I’d bet a lot of money the holes in the shafts that Rocket has are in the correct location.

That being the case only if the holes in the non offset shafts you have are wrong.
Running offset shafts.
 
as mentioned the pushrods are to short. i run the same setup for many years and never a problem. No blue tips or anything.

IMG_1073.png


IMG_1074.png
 
Wrong length pushrods, it should have never been assembled like that. What does rocker geometry look like?
 
as mentioned the pushrods are to short. i run the same setup for many years and never a problem. No blue tips or anything.

View attachment 1716296082

View attachment 1716296083
Thanks for the reply and pics. Those look like the same Smith Brothers pushrods that I have.

Do you guys think that the adjuster being too far through the rocker is restricting oil to the cup? And moving the cup closer to the rocker will prevent the overheating?

@9secRR , are you running different length rods for intake and exhaust? Also, how much side clearance are you running on that setup?
 
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Wrong length pushrods, it should have never been assembled like that. What does rocker geometry look like?
The geometry was set up by Mike at B3.
Do you think longer pushrods would cure the overheating? Or could there be an oil flow problem due to improperly located oiling holes in the shaft?
 
Thanks for the reply and pics. Those look like the same Smith Brothers pushrods that I have.

Do you guys think that the adjuster being too far through the rocker is restricting oil to the cup? And moving the cup closer to the rocker will prevent the overheating?

@9secRR , are you running different length rods for intake and exhaust?


It will help for sure. You can get away with the oil holes being off if your spring load and rpm are relatively orthodox.

I think at 300 on the seat and 8k we would nip an adjuster now and then.

When I hit 325 on the seat and 8800 rpm you could barely get heat in the engine before it would kill an adjuster. And the pushrod.

So it gets expensive right quick.

I always run two different length pushrods.

IIRC the intake is .050-.060 longer than the exhaust. Don’t quote me on that but it’s pretty close.

When you start playing with the stuff you are, you should do everything you can to eliminate any weak spots you find, and as you can see the Chrysler numbers for adjuster protrusion are pretty specific. For good reason it appears.
 
The geometry was set up by Mike at B3.
Do you think longer pushrods would cure the overheating? Or could there be an oil flow problem due to improperly located oiling holes in the shaft?


BTW, you can check to see if maybe your shafts have the oil holes in the correct location while the engine is in the car.

Get whatever cylinder you want to check on the seat with the correct lash. Pull the adjusters out of the rockers and stick a small pick or pin or whatever you can find that will fit in the hole.

If it goes in and hits the shaft you know the holes aren’t lined up. That’s a quick and dirty way to find out if at some point Chrysler fixed the issue.

I figured it out one day by sheer accident. I had the rockers off but I had the number one rockers on thx shaft. I had the adjusters out because I was probably changing them out after killing some of them.

I still had the stands on there with the bolts in them so the rockers were where they would be on the engine.

I was walking to the back of the shop and the rockers just started to turn on the shafts and it caught my eye. Then I noticed, because the adjusters were out that I never saw the oil hole.

I couldn’t believe it. So I spun the rockers on the shaft many times to verify I didn’t just miss the holes.

That’s when I pulled the rockers off the shaft, put some bluing on the shaft and put the rockers back on and put it on the head.

Then I stuck a scribe in the hole to mark the shaft.

And they were off not only left to right on the shaft, they are off radially around the shaft too.

Like I said, they may have corrected that but I’ve not found that yet.
 
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