My take on the oiling system crossover tube for the small block

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So, I'm curious about my oil pressure on a brand new 408 stroker. Quick rundown: MP/Scat crank, H-beams, Diamond forged pistons. Hughes hydraulic roller cam with "retro fit" roller lifters, (got 'em when they came out 12 years? ago sometime) ported Eddy heads, Hughes roller rockers, Victor 340 manifold, Milodon gear drive.

On the dyno running 10w40, from 3000 rpm to 6200, oil pressure with a "high volume pump" was 43psi at 3000 rpm, and 50psi @ 6200 rpm. Imo, I think that's a little low...

Today I swapped to one of those billet oil filters with the removable stainless mesh element, and gained 2 psi, still not good enough. Cold idle with 20w50 I read 50-55psi. Once warmed up at 180* engine temp, idle is 20psi. If I rev it to 1500 or more, it will not go past 50psi.

What could be happening? Is oil bleeding past the "retro fit" hydraulic roller lifters? (lifter bores not bushed)

I have to change a leaking rear main seal, so I will be installing a "blueprinted" 'high volume' precision oil pump, that I had Doug over at Precision 'shim' for even more pressure, if that'll work. I just Don't know. Trying everything to NOT tear this sucker down. lol

I will be uploading 2 videos one cold while warming up, the other hot. Stay tuned.
 
mopardude318 said:
So, I'm curious about my oil pressure on a brand new 408 stroker. Quick rundown: MP/Scat crank, H-beams, Diamond forged pistons. Hughes hydraulic roller cam with "retro fit" roller lifters, (got 'em when they came out 12 years? ago sometime) ported Eddy heads, Hughes roller rockers, Victor 340 manifold, Milodon gear drive.

On the dyno running 10w40, from 3000 rpm to 6200, oil pressure with a "high volume pump" was 43psi at 3000 rpm, and 50psi @ 6200 rpm. Imo, I think that's a little low...

Today I swapped to one of those billet oil filters with the removable stainless mesh element, and gained 2 psi, still not good enough. Cold idle with 20w50 I read 50-55psi. Once warmed up at 180* engine temp, idle is 20psi. If I rev it to 1500 or more, it will not go past 50psi.

What could be happening? Is oil bleeding past the "retro fit" hydraulic roller lifters? (lifter bores not bushed)

I have to change a leaking rear main seal, so I will be installing a "blueprinted" 'high volume' precision oil pump, that I had Doug over at Precision 'shim' for even more pressure, if that'll work. I just Don't know. Trying everything to NOT tear this sucker down. lol

I will be uploading 2 videos one cold while warming up, the other hot. Stay tuned.
Click to expand...
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Who built the motor?
What block are you using?
Is the driver side rear galley plug in place?
Are you using a gasket between the pump and the rear main cap?
If is it cracked or blowen?
Is the pump mounted flat aganst the main cap?
 
Jadaharabi said:
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Who built the motor?
What block are you using?
Is the driver side rear galley plug in place?
Are you using a gasket between the pump and the rear main cap?
If is it cracked or blowen?
Is the pump mounted flat aganst the main cap?
Click to expand...

-Hughes Engines built the short block 12 years ago, then had it Dyno'd a few months later, then it sat in my garage for the rest of the time as I was building the car. Just got it running a month ago.

-It's a 1973 dated 360 block.
-Don't know about that driver side rear galley plug, ill check when I pull the motor tomorrow.
-When I pull the pump, I'll see if there is a gasket, and will note the condition of it.
-I will check how flat the pump sits when I pull the pan in a couple days.
 
Oh, I have a few but it’s been almost 20yrs since Ive read them.

I have How to hot rod small block mopars and it’s highlighted throughout.
How to build performance big and small blocks (red cover)
How to rebuild small block mopars/chryslers.
Mopar engines 8th edition
Chassis book 8th
A 1983 version of circle track book of tech articles.
Just last year bought a 2016 print of larry shepards moar sb engines Max Performance.

Only read half and it seemed to be mostly a rehash of his book from the 90’s so i stopped reading 1/2 way through.

Toward the end of this vid I find the 1983 Tech book for circle track racers.

 
Jadaharabi said:
Have you ever talked to Dave about this?
How big is the cam?
Click to expand...

I remember speaking to him about this years ago when we dyno'd it, he said the oil pressure was acceptable....

Here's my cam card:

IMG-3897.jpg
 
prochargedmopar said:
Oh, I have a few but it’s been almost 20yrs since Ive read them.

I have How to hot rod small block mopars and it’s highlighted throughout.
How to build performance big and small blocks (red cover)
How to rebuild small block mopars/chryslers.
Mopar engines 8th edition
Chassis book 8th
A 1983 version of circle track book of tech articles.
Just last year bought a 2016 print of larry shepards moar sb engines Max Performance.

Only read half and it seemed to be mostly a rehash of his book from the 90’s so i stopped reading 1/2 way through.

Toward the end of this vid I find the 1983 Tech book for circle track racers.

Click to expand...

.
Check the Larry Atherton book.

Larry Shepard is into the sleaving the galley for the solid lifters.
 
mopardude318 said:
Here's the other video, engine warmed up.

Click to expand...

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Dave can sit there all day long an tell you that's enough oil pressure but I sure wouldn't like it.
Personally I think there's something inside leaking off some oil pressure. Interesting how it goes to 50 lb and kind of stays there doesn't really go above it.
Maybe it has a 50 lb oil pressure bypass spring. But I would not think so.
Love the sound of your engine though.
 
Jadaharabi said:
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Dave can sit there all day long an tell you that's enough oil pressure but I sure wouldn't like it.
Personally I think there's something inside leaking off some oil pressure. Interesting how it goes to 50 lb and kind of stays there doesn't really go above it.
Maybe it has a 50 lb oil pressure bypass spring. But I would not think so.
Love the sound of your engine though.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I love how it sounds too!
I was talking with Bob Mazzolini, he thinks because the lifter bores are not bushed, oil is leaking past those.
I may just run the engine as is, some say the pressure is okay, others question it.

I will find out when I put that HV oil pump along with a shimmed spring once I get it later this week. I dunno.
 
mopardude318 said:
Thanks, I love how it sounds too!
I was talking with Bob Mazzolini, he thinks because the lifter bores are not bushed, oil is leaking past those.
I may just run the engine as is, some say the pressure is okay, others question it.

I will find out when I put that HV oil pump along with a shimmed spring once I get it later this week. I dunno.
Click to expand...
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If the pump does not take care of the problem you could always put in solid roller lifters and see if that cures the oil problem.
 
Jadaharabi said:
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If the pump does not take care of the problem you could always put in solid roller lifters and see if that cures the oil problem.
Click to expand...
Few questions:

Wouldn't I need to bush the lifter bores to do that? Which would also require dismantling the shortblock?
If bushing is not necessary, who makes the solid roller lifters that would drop right in?
Would they work with my hydraulic roller cam? or does the cam not care if the lifters are solid or hydraulic?
 
mopardude318 said:
Few questions:

Wouldn't I need to bush the lifter bores to do that? Which would also require dismantling the shortblock?
If bushing is not necessary, who makes the solid roller lifters that would drop right in?
Would they work with my hydraulic roller cam? or does the cam not care if the lifters are solid or hydraulic?
Click to expand...

First of all I have watched your videos. The oil pressure response is what tells me something , not the actual number. I don't like what I see. You have an oil plug missing (best case scenario) or excessive main bearing clearance. The way it lags behind RPM changes is not a good sign. It is probably gushing oil around the lifters as rollers are usually -.001" smaller which is quite a bit of area but the way it responds is the tell tale. Good luck. J.Rob
 
RAMM said:
First of all I have watched your videos. The oil pressure response is what tells me something , not the actual number. I don't like what I see. You have an oil plug missing (best case scenario) or excessive main bearing clearance. The way it lags behind RPM changes is not a good sign. It is probably gushing oil around the lifters as rollers are usually -.001" smaller which is quite a bit of area but the way it responds is the tell tale. Good luck. J.Rob
Click to expand...

Would you mind giving me a quick rundown on the best way to check all that. I imagine i'll be taking the timing cover off as well? Will I have to remove my gear drive?
 
Yikes!!
I just drilled the opposite side Oil galley feed passage right into the water jacket.
Some how my angle was off and the bit did not follow the current hole.
Drill bit snapped when I was an inch from the galley target, it shot out the other side of the block.....I'm like, Uhhhh,
that's not good.

I tapped and PLUGGED that feed going up to the left side galley just as if I was going to use solid roller lifters.
Used JB weld and Red Loctite on the set screw. Don't want water leaking into my oil.
Now from looking at the oiling diagram it appears I MUST install the crossover to feed oil to my hydraulic lifters on that side.

How will this effect oiling to #4 which is suppose to be the only reason for the crossover in the first place?????
Phooey!
 
Got a picture procharged?

Hope your not counting on jb weld to plug the water jacket.

The crossover is also to feed the hydraulic lifters. So it will still function for that as well as helping #4. As stated in the past you do not need to drill the front oil passage. It only feeds the #1 main and 1 rod bearing.
 
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Jadaharabi said:
Got a picture procharged?

Hope your not counting on jb weld to plug the water jacket.
Click to expand...

I just did a closer inspection and felt a small amount of air coming out of the water jacket at the top of the block.
So I don't have to scrap it I drove the expansion plug in the end of the galley deeper into the galley so it would take the feed out of the circuit.
Then installed two more plugs on top of that.
Now there is no way for oil to get up the whole I drilled from mains as it is set screwed and sealed.
No way for water or oil to get to and fro from the galley to water jacket because I have a soft plug on each side.

I'll get a video up tomorrow and explain it better.
Off to work.

Bummer, one lackadaisical move and block could have been trashed.
 
Jadaharabi said:
The crossover is also to feed the hydraulic lifters. So it will still function for that as well as helping #4. As stated in the past you do not need to drill the front oil passage. It only feeds the #1 main and 1 rod bearing.
Click to expand...

I got overzealous wanting maximum 5/16 flow to all main bearings.
Better to have let that one slide than this.
Anyway. the expansion plug should keep water out of the galley and vise versa.
I could tap the end of the galley for added strength and plug it just as I did the main feed coming up but don’t think that’s necessary.
The outer plug will keep water out from behind the cam cover.
 
prochargedmopar said:
The one guy in the other thread said the cam bearing clearance basically closes the oil feed holes up to the galley which effectively restricts them.
My biggest concern now is the pickup/flow to the pump.

60psi of pressure I would think covers a multitude of sin.
Kinda like 30psi of boost.

If I get the pipe taps and do the crossover once, then these mods will become commonplace in all my builds.

Free Insurance.
Click to expand...
The guy who said that never explained nor have I ever heard of anyone adjusting cam bearing clearance to restrict flow. A cam bearing works the same way as a rod or main bearing. If it has some clearance, it leaks. The amount of volume flowing to a cam bearing is excessive in relation to the load and rpm(half the crank) that the cam sees. That excessive oil is better restricted and sent to the crank.
I have never heard that there are .001 under or over size cam bearings to adjust clearance in a cam bearing, and because of the way cam bearings are installed, you would ruin a set just establishing what is needed. I say bs on that type of restriction imho.
Cam bearings leak huge, that's why people restrict them.
If I am wrong the guy who posted that should explain how it is done.
Not just make a blanket statement and disappear imho.
 
Jadaharabi said:
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I agree with you there are some fast small blocks out there that do not have that crossover done to them. But I can also remember a lot of those very same cars sitting out beside or behind the shops because they put a rod out.
He's wanting to turbocharge and supercharge this motor so he's not going to have a standard need for oil pressure. He's going to be working it. So my thinking is he needs to go for all the gust o to have this thing live long and prosper.
Click to expand...
A friend of mine bought a brand new crate motor small block this past summer. First time out to the track revving to 7500 trap speed he lost a rod bearing. Had a knock after the run.
 
mopardude318 said:
So, I'm curious about my oil pressure on a brand new 408 stroker. Quick rundown: MP/Scat crank, H-beams, Diamond forged pistons. Hughes hydraulic roller cam with "retro fit" roller lifters, (got 'em when they came out 12 years? ago sometime) ported Eddy heads, Hughes roller rockers, Victor 340 manifold, Milodon gear drive.

On the dyno running 10w40, from 3000 rpm to 6200, oil pressure with a "high volume pump" was 43psi at 3000 rpm, and 50psi @ 6200 rpm. Imo, I think that's a little low...

Today I swapped to one of those billet oil filters with the removable stainless mesh element, and gained 2 psi, still not good enough. Cold idle with 20w50 I read 50-55psi. Once warmed up at 180* engine temp, idle is 20psi. If I rev it to 1500 or more, it will not go past 50psi.

What could be happening? Is oil bleeding past the "retro fit" hydraulic roller lifters? (lifter bores not bushed)

I have to change a leaking rear main seal, so I will be installing a "blueprinted" 'high volume' precision oil pump, that I had Doug over at Precision 'shim' for even more pressure, if that'll work. I just Don't know. Trying everything to NOT tear this sucker down. lol

I will be uploading 2 videos one cold while warming up, the other hot. Stay tuned.
Click to expand...
Too much lifter bore leakage.
 
Are they the AMC style lifters with pushrod oiling? Most of them are. If so, there's your oil pressure "loss" right there. I think it's fine. I would run hell out of it.
 
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