My take on the oiling system crossover tube for the small block

[mopardude318]

Are they the AMC style lifters with pushrod oiling? Most of them are. If so, there's your oil pressure "loss" right there. I think it's fine. I would run hell out of it.

They are a retrofit hydraulic roller from hughes engines, might have been made by comp cams at the time, which looking at my invoice was back in 9/29/2006. most of the hughes part numbers on my invoice doesn't even come up on their site.

Fuckin 12 years ago, and here I am finally starting this engine up as of last month. Whether they forgot a plug, jacked up the main bearing clearances, or these lifters I have are just straight up junk, I don't think Hughes would be willing to help.

I guess I *COULD* maybe try those 'drop in' no mod necessary solid roller lifters from IMM, or the other guy who out of business, MRL? Think they are BAM is the name? I dunno.

 

[Duane]

Few questions:

Wouldn't I need to bush the lifter bores to do that? Which would also require dismantling the shortblock?
If bushing is not necessary, who makes the solid roller lifters that would drop right in?
Would they work with my hydraulic roller cam? or does the cam not care if the lifters are solid or hydraulic?

Comp cams

 

[RustyRatRod]

They are a retrofit hydraulic roller from hughes engines, might have been made by comp cams at the time, which looking at my invoice was back in 9/29/2006. most of the hughes part numbers on my invoice doesn't even come up on their site.

Fuckin 12 years ago, and here I am finally starting this engine up as of last month. Whether they forgot a plug, jacked up the main bearing clearances, or these lifters I have are just straight up junk, I don't think Hughes would be willing to help.

I guess I *COULD* maybe try those 'drop in' no mod necessary solid roller lifters from IMM, or the other guy who out of business, MRL? Think they are BAM is the name? I dunno.

Read what I wrote. If those lifters have the hole for pushrod oiling, that's your oil pressure "loss". I use quotation marks because if that's the case, IT'S NO BIG DEAL.

What "I" would do: Pull a valve cover, remove a pushrod and look at the lifter plunger. If there's a hole in it, slap it back together and RUN IT.

 

[RustyRatRod]

If they are the Hughes 5321, they ARE oil through lifters. I tell you man, if that's the case, you have plenty of oil pressure. Oil is just gettin by the pushrod is all. That would be the last thing I would worry about.

 

[Duane]

They are a retrofit hydraulic roller from hughes engines, might have been made by comp cams at the time, which looking at my invoice was back in 9/29/2006. most of the hughes part numbers on my invoice doesn't even come up on their site.

Fuckin 12 years ago, and here I am finally starting this engine up as of last month. Whether they forgot a plug, jacked up the main bearing clearances, or these lifters I have are just straight up junk, I don't think Hughes would be willing to help.

I guess I *COULD* maybe try those 'drop in' no mod necessary solid roller lifters from IMM, or the other guy who out of business, MRL? Think they are BAM is the name? I dunno.

There is a whole thread about guys having the same issue with low oil pressure using those bam lifters. They will give you the same problem. You want the comp cams lifters that are solid all the way down nod a high volume pump if you do not already have one.

 

[prochargedmopar]

I checked tonight after work on the #3 main as it drilled harder than #4, #2 and the original #1 I had drilled.
I thought something was suspicious. LOL
It basically did the same thing as the 2nd time I drilled #1 up to the other side galley.

I got some safety wire and started fishing around with a small hook on the end to feel the passages.
#2 and #4 felt as they should smooth and then dropping into the oil galley.

#3, had a little hiccup and eventually I was able to get the wire to come out of a top hole in the head.
Bummer.

#1 would have been fine with the set screw at the main saddle and the expansion plugs pushed back in deeper to prevent oil getting into the coolant passages.

#3 I have no way to get back in there.

Maybe this is why some books say to use one size smaller than 5/16 to drill the feeds to the mains.
Amazing the drill did not follow the previous hole.
If I was trying to do that I could have never made it happen.

I do have another LA 360 block I can use.
I wonder if filling this one solid and using a Mac truck oil cooler would work??

 

[mopardude318]

If they are the Hughes 5321, they ARE oil through lifters. I tell you man, if that's the case, you have plenty of oil pressure. Oil is just gettin by the pushrod is all. That would be the last thing I would worry about.

Ill call Hughes tomorrow, and find out exactly what they are. Ill pull a rocker cover , and rocker arms and a pushrod to see.

There is a whole thread about guys having the same issue with low oil pressure using those bam lifters. They will give you the same problem. You want the comp cams lifters that are solid all the way down nod a high volume pump if you do not already have one.

Just for the hell of it, do you have a part number for these?

 

[Duane]

Ill call Hughes tomorrow, and find out exactly what they are. Ill pull a rocker cover , and rocker arms and a pushrod to see.



Just for the hell of it, do you have a part number for these?

Not handy no but those lifters are on comps website.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I think that's a good idea. Look at how ROCK SOLID it is at 20 PSI. I know that doesnt seem like a lot, but it never drops below it and AS SOON AS you blip the throttle the pressure goes right up. Have you done the first oil change? If not, when you do, look closely at the oil for metal particles. No particles? Run the *****.

 

[Jadaharabi]

I checked tonight after work on the #3 main as it drilled harder than #4, #2 and the original #1 I had drilled.
I thought something was suspicious. LOL
It basically did the same thing as the 2nd time I drilled #1 up to the other side galley.

I got some safety wire and started fishing around with a small hook on the end to feel the passages.
#2 and #4 felt as they should smooth and then dropping into the oil galley.

#3, had a little hiccup and eventually I was able to get the wire to come out of a top hole in the head.
Bummer.

#1 would have been fine with the set screw at the main saddle and the expansion plugs pushed back in deeper to prevent oil getting into the coolant passages.

#3 I have no way to get back in there.

Maybe this is why some books say to use one size smaller than 5/16 to drill the feeds to the mains.
Amazing the drill did not follow the previous hole.
If I was trying to do that I could have never made it happen.

I do have another LA 360 block I can use.
I wonder if filling this one solid and using a Mac truck oil cooler would work??

Check #3 an see if you actually followed the passage into the galley and then drill through the back side of the passage.

Run one of those little vidio cams in the galley an find out where the. hole is.

This is turning into a "how not to do the oiling system mods".

I bet your learning a lot about the sbm oiling system now.

 

[nm9stheham]

I checked tonight after work on the #3 main as it drilled harder than #4, #2 and the original #1 I had drilled.
I thought something was suspicious. LOL
It basically did the same thing as the 2nd time I drilled #1 up to the other side galley.

I got some safety wire and started fishing around with a small hook on the end to feel the passages.
#2 and #4 felt as they should smooth and then dropping into the oil galley.

#3, had a little hiccup and eventually I was able to get the wire to come out of a top hole in the head.
Bummer.

#1 would have been fine with the set screw at the main saddle and the expansion plugs pushed back in deeper to prevent oil getting into the coolant passages.

#3 I have no way to get back in there.

Maybe this is why some books say to use one size smaller than 5/16 to drill the feeds to the mains.
Amazing the drill did not follow the previous hole.
If I was trying to do that I could have never made it happen.

I do have another LA 360 block I can use.
I wonder if filling this one solid and using a Mac truck oil cooler would work??

Man that is a bummer. Can you share with us what drill speed you were using, etc? We did 5/16" bits through the 4 passenger side oil passages, so it can be done. But we:

• limited speed to 400-500 RPM with a hand held drill
• light pressure and very slow
• used plain iron oxide bits
• used very little lube, if any
• pulled out frequently to let the chips clear
• we also looked into the holes from time to time to see that the drill was following the original holes.

(Just what you need to hear after the fact LOL)

IMHO, I was reading your earlier posts and was going to comment that I was a bit skeptical that a simple plug was going to seal the coolant from getting into the oil gallery.... unless you put some sort of sealer on it. Seems like a dry plug might seep some coolant.

Seems like a good plan is to figure out if you are going to do these mods up-front and do them first thing... in case something goes awry...

 

[prochargedmopar]

Update video.
Block is trashed unless I want to fill it to the deck surface.
What's the best filler to use?
I've seen some Honda guys using Devcon pretty sure that would get expensive on a V8.
Back burner project now.

 

[prochargedmopar]

Check #3 an see if you actually followed the passage into the galley and then drill through the back side of the passage.

Run one of those little vidio cams in the galley an find out where the. hole is.

This is turning into a "how not to do the oiling system mods".

I bet your learning a lot about the sbm oiling system now.

Pretty sure it will help someone in the future if they watch the vids.
I've got a cam so I can stick it down through the deck and see where the hole comes out but not much that can be done now.

The one guy offered the tip on making the crossover to start with small drill and work your way up in three steps.
This may apply when drilling the main to galley passages too.

Yes, I've learned a lot.
I now understand where all the oil goes and for what reason.
Pretty simple actually.

 

[prochargedmopar]

Man that is a bummer. Can you share with us what drill speed you were using, etc? We did 5/16" bits through the 4 passenger side oil passages, so it can be done. But we:

• limited speed to 400-500 RPM with a hand held drill
• light pressure and very slow
• used plain iron oxide bits
• used very little lube, if any
• pulled out frequently to let the chips clear
• we also looked into the holes from time to time to see that the drill was following the original holes.

(Just what you need to hear after the fact LOL)

IMHO, I was reading your earlier posts and was going to comment that I was a bit skeptical that a simple plug was going to seal the coolant from getting into the oil gallery.... unless you put some sort of sealer on it. Seems like a dry plug might seep some coolant.

Seems like a good plan is to figure out if you are going to do these mods up-front and do them first thing... in case something goes awry...

The set screw and expansion plug would have worked for the #1 main to galley repair.
Oil from main saddle could not go up to where the drill bit went out the side.
From the factory you have an expansion plug in the end of the galley keeping it separated from the water passage at the front of the block.

It's the #3 main that one can not get to or alienate from the rest of the system.

The biggest issue was starting the hole STRAIT and parallel to the existing hole.
On the ones I got lined up properly they drilled out easy and you could tell when it broke into the oil galley passage.
Was definite.
If at any time it starts drilling hard or your getting too many shavings coming out it's time to abort the project. LOL

 

[prochargedmopar]

BTW,
I will use this block to practice making a crossover tube..............................
Ugh!!,
I just realized I had a boned out 318 block I could have used to practice all this on before doing my 360.
Doh.

Ok, that's it. Once I practice making/drilling/taping the crossover tube on this block I'm going to mod the 318 block from start to finish as added practice.
Then I will go for it on the 360 I show in the vid above.

 

[nm9stheham]

From the factory you have an expansion plug in the end of the galley keeping it separated from the water passage at the front of the block.

Just FWIW.. this is not the case. The plug(s) is(are) just to keep oil in ... there is no coolant on the other side of the plug(s).

 

[Jadaharabi]

Pretty sure it will help someone in the future if they watch the vids.
I've got a cam so I can stick it down through the deck and see where the hole comes out but not much that can be done now.

The one guy offered the tip on making the crossover to start with small drill and work your way up in three steps.
This may apply when drilling the main to galley passages too.

Yes, I've learned a lot.
I now understand where all the oil goes and for what reason.
Pretty simple actually.

The set screw and expansion plug would have worked for the #1 main to galley repair.
Oil from main saddle could not go up to where the drill bit went out the side.
From the factory you have an expansion plug in the end of the galley keeping it separated from the water passage at the front of the block.

It's the #3 main that one can not get to or alienate from the rest of the system.

The biggest issue was starting the hole STRAIT and parallel to the existing hole.
On the ones I got lined up properly they drilled out easy and you could tell when it broke into the oil galley passage.
Was definite.
If at any time it starts drilling hard or your getting too many shavings coming out it's time to abort the project. LOL

.
From the quick flash of the video camera You did not need to do the set screw and plug on the number one Passage. You could have gone through that water jacket hole tap the hole and put a plug in it and still been able to use that block as originally intended.

The plugs at the end of The Galley at the front cover are not to separate water from the oil those are to keep oil from leaking out the end of the galley into the front cover area.

I would really like to see more of your video on the third main passage being drilled out it may not be as bad as you think.
Do me a favor and slow the movement of the camera so that I can get a better view of things.
Remember I'm very old.

 

[Duane]

Update video.
Block is trashed unless I want to fill it to the deck surface.
What's the best filler to use?
I've seen some Honda guys using Devcon pretty sure that would get expensive on a V8.
Back burner project now.

We have all made mistakes like that. I know I have.
I commend you for showing your mistake to others.
If I could offer you some advice for the next time you try this,
The little girl is adorable, but she is a distraction, trying to make a video while drilling is a distraction, trying to spray lubricant is a distraction. I would have both hands on the drill bit and make sure you sight the angle you are holding the drill to make sure you are in line with the existing hole. Have your oil galley plugs out so you can look in the galley to see when the drill has reached the galley so you do not drill too deep.
When you start to drill, the beginning of the hole has uneven material
Because you are going in on an angle, do not try to go into the existing hole until the drill has had a chance to start into the hole squarely. I have always used a 5/16 drill without issue.
You could use a reamer that is less prone to wander. Drills can and do wander off center. The most important thing is to sight the drill from multiple sides before you get in too deep to make sure you are in line.
Hopefully it will go better for you next time. I have always maintained that any engine work always requires your undivided attention, no visitors, no beer lol, and good lighting.

 

[Duane]

.
From the quick flash of the video camera You did not need to do the set screw and plug on the number one Passage. You could have gone through that water jacket hole tap the hole and put a plug in it and still been able to use that block as originally intended.

The plugs at the end of The Galley at the front cover are not to separate water from the oil those are to keep oil from leaking out the end of the galley into the front cover area.

I would really like to see more of your video on the third main passage being drilled out it may not be as bad as you think.
Do me a favor and slow the movement of the camera so that I can get a better view of things.

Might be able to plug that hole at the deck.

 

[nm9stheham]

So, I'm curious about my oil pressure on a brand new 408 stroker. Quick rundown: MP/Scat crank, H-beams, Diamond forged pistons. Hughes hydraulic roller cam with "retro fit" roller lifters, (got 'em when they came out 12 years? ago sometime) ported Eddy heads, Hughes roller rockers, Victor 340 manifold, Milodon gear drive.

On the dyno running 10w40, from 3000 rpm to 6200, oil pressure with a "high volume pump" was 43psi at 3000 rpm, and 50psi @ 6200 rpm. Imo, I think that's a little low...

Today I swapped to one of those billet oil filters with the removable stainless mesh element, and gained 2 psi, still not good enough. Cold idle with 20w50 I read 50-55psi. Once warmed up at 180* engine temp, idle is 20psi. If I rev it to 1500 or more, it will not go past 50psi.

What could be happening? Is oil bleeding past the "retro fit" hydraulic roller lifters? (lifter bores not bushed)

I have to change a leaking rear main seal, so I will be installing a "blueprinted" 'high volume' precision oil pump, that I had Doug over at Precision 'shim' for even more pressure, if that'll work. I just Don't know. Trying everything to NOT tear this sucker down. lol

I will be uploading 2 videos one cold while warming up, the other hot. Stay tuned.

BTW, MD318, have you tired a different oil pressure gauge?

 

[prochargedmopar]

.
From the quick flash of the video camera You did not need to do the set screw and plug on the number one Passage. You could have gone through that water jacket hole tap the hole and put a plug in it and still been able to use that block as originally intended.

The plugs at the end of The Galley at the front cover are not to separate water from the oil those are to keep oil from leaking out the end of the galley into the front cover area.

I would really like to see more of your video on the third main passage being drilled out it may not be as bad as you think.
Do me a favor and slow the movement of the camera so that I can get a better view of things.
Remember I'm very old.

Ok, I gotcha on the expansion plug behind the cam plate.
By pushing the plug into the galley deeper it stops oil from going down to the main journal on that tappet galley.
Oil inside the passage will be dead-headed between the inside plug and the outside plug behind the cam plate.

I drilled into the water passage on #1 so I had to put a set screw in the main journal area to keep water from going to the main or oil from going into the water passage (60 psi overpowers 15psi).

By pushing the plug in deeper this means no oil from the galley could escape down the oil passage toward main and out the hole that was drilled into water passage.
All good there.

#3 is a different story.

Just plugging the water passage hole at the deck would do nothing for stopping the oil going from the right oil galley out into the water jacket on it's way down to the main journal.
I see no way to separate the two unless the block was filled to the top and all the oil passages to the head were drilled and plugged with an exception of the ones coming from/to the pump at the front. A tube or something would have to be placed in there to allow water to flow to the heads.

Unless one wanted to set up an entirely external water cooling system to feed the heads.
What a PITA!

 

[prochargedmopar]

We have all made mistakes like that. I know I have.
I commend you for showing your mistake to others.
If I could offer you some advice for the next time you try this,
The little girl is adorable, but she is a distraction, trying to make a video while drilling is a distraction, trying to spray lubricant is a distraction. I would have both hands on the drill bit and make sure you sight the angle you are holding the drill to make sure you are in line with the existing hole. Have your oil galley plugs out so you can look in the galley to see when the drill has reached the galley so you do not drill too deep.
When you start to drill, the beginning of the hole has uneven material
Because you are going in on an angle, do not try to go into the existing hole until the drill has had a chance to start into the hole squarely. I have always used a 5/16 drill without issue.
You could use a reamer that is less prone to wander. Drills can and do wander off center. The most important thing is to sight the drill from multiple sides before you get in too deep to make sure you are in line.
Hopefully it will go better for you next time. I have always maintained that any engine work always requires your undivided attention, no visitors, no beer lol, and good lighting.

Yes, and yes.
Slow down. Contemplate, and stay focused.

Just wait till you see me rebuild a couple transmissions. lol
It will all be documented on YT.
‘Gulp’

 

[mopardude318]

BTW, MD318, have you tired a different oil pressure gauge?

I will try that today

 

[Jadaharabi]

Ok, I gotcha on the expansion plug behind the cam plate.
By pushing the plug into the galley deeper it stops oil from going down to the main journal on that tappet galley.
Oil inside the passage will be dead-headed between the inside plug and the outside plug behind the cam plate.

I drilled into the water passage on #1 so I had to put a set screw in the main journal area to keep water from going to the main or oil from going into the water passage (60 psi overpowers 15psi).

By pushing the plug in deeper this means no oil from the galley could escape down the oil passage toward main and out the hole that was drilled into water passage.
All good there.

#3 is a different story.

Just plugging the water passage hole at the deck would do nothing for stopping the oil going from the right oil galley out into the water jacket on it's way down to the main journal.
I see no way to separate the two unless the block was filled to the top and all the oil passages to the head were drilled and plugged with an exception of the ones coming from/to the pump at the front. A tube or something would have to be placed in there to allow water to flow to the heads.

Unless one wanted to set up an entirely external water cooling system to feed the heads.
What a PITA!

.
Okay let me say this a different way with that plug and those freeze plugs out of the oil galley. Now what you have is a hole going into the water jacket from that oil passage from the galley. If you tap that hole out there in the water jacket and put a plug in it you have just saved that front Passage.

In other words you are just tapping and plugging the water jacket. Which on the inside is the oil Galley on the outside is the water jacket.

 

[mopardude318]

BTW, MD318, have you tired a different oil pressure gauge?

Today I tried an AutoMeter mechanical gauge, which read a few psi higher, about 26psi idle hot.

These first 4 pics are of my very first, engine break in, on the dyno oil filter. Very small metallic particles, which I don't think is out of the question, just break in material.

These 3 pics are the second filter where I was doing all the revs in my videos, and a little bit idle and run time. maybe about an hour of run time. Much more clean, nothing of concern I would think?

Those little metallic particles are really small, very fine, could still be residual break in material. I dunno, I've seen hellova lot worse. LOL

Bottom of filter was very clean...

Here is a video I did today of the AutoMeter gauge, warmed up, and some revs.