New Hemi Swap with Borgeson Steering Box?

-
Send the headers back to TTI and do it C.O.D.!! They might get the message that there is a problem with their stuff and the borgenson box. Just can figure out why the a body headers have so many problems and the b body, me included, don't have near the problems. Mine dropped right in, a little close to the trans, but doable.
 
Well, the B bodies have way more room for all the components. You guys are expecting WAAAYYY too much out of these aftermarket vendors. The bottom line is there is not enough room to fit a Gen3 Hemi into a stock A body engine compartment. You can use the aftermarket as a start, but expect to modify; dent; cut; etc to fit it in. I realized early on and went with the AlterK set up and haven't looked back. For those who resist an AlterK or Denny'sK, you can get one to fit, but you're going to have a cut up, dented up mess by the time you're through and still probably have rattles and vibrations to boot.

If you want to do a "clean" install of a Gen3 into an A body, include an aftermarket suspension in your budget, right under the cost of the engine itself...


5.7 hemi said:
Send the headers back to TTI and do it C.O.D.!! They might get the message that there is a problem with their stuff and the borgenson box. Just can figure out why the a body headers have so many problems and the b body, me included, don't have near the problems. Mine dropped right in, a little close to the trans, but doable.
Click to expand...
 
The problem is these headers were supposedly designed to fit and were photographed as so. Expecting a header advertised and sold as fitting around a Borgeson box to do so is not a stretch. All they need is a one tube tweaked to be right but the manufacturer wants to hang his hat on them be fine as is. The header in my garage looks no different than the ones they show in pics for fitting a manual box. I'm cool with a ding or 2 but I expect tolerances of closer to .150 not .375 and thats what it is.
 
Cuda SRT8 said:
Well, the B bodies have way more room for all the components. You guys are expecting WAAAYYY too much out of these aftermarket vendors. The bottom line is there is not enough room to fit a Gen3 Hemi into a stock A body engine compartment. You can use the aftermarket as a start, but expect to modify; dent; cut; etc to fit it in. I realized early on and went with the AlterK set up and haven't looked back. For those who resist an AlterK or Denny'sK, you can get one to fit, but you're going to have a cut up, dented up mess by the time you're through and still probably have rattles and vibrations to boot.

If you want to do a "clean" install of a Gen3 into an A body, include an aftermarket suspension in your budget, right under the cost of the engine itself...
Click to expand...

My gen 3 dropped right in on a factory K member pretty easy. I didn't have to modify any of the body to make it fit. I originally planned to use factory manifold of some variety and swap to headers down the road, but figured I'd rather only do the job once and got a set before I put the engine in. They actually dropped in pretty easy and required no mods, but they are a pretty tight fight around the torsion bars. I think the main problem is that tolerances weren't well controlled back in the day and some of the parts have shifted and fatigued over their 40+ year life. One guy will drop an engine right in and the next will have to cut half his front end apart. You never really know until you try it yourself unfortunately.
 
Cuda SRT8 said:
Well, the B bodies have way more room for all the components. You guys are expecting WAAAYYY too much out of these aftermarket vendors. The bottom line is there is not enough room to fit a Gen3 Hemi into a stock A body engine compartment. You can use the aftermarket as a start, but expect to modify; dent; cut; etc to fit it in. I realized early on and went with the AlterK set up and haven't looked back. For those who resist an AlterK or Denny'sK, you can get one to fit, but you're going to have a cut up, dented up mess by the time you're through and still probably have rattles and vibrations to boot.

If you want to do a "clean" install of a Gen3 into an A body, include an aftermarket suspension in your budget, right under the cost of the engine itself...
Click to expand...


Couple things you said bothered me.

You say I'm expecting too much from TTI. No, I expect a 'better' product than what a first time header builder can do. You see, I built a set of headers for my 5.7 heads. And they fit AROUND THE FACTORY POWER STEERING BOX. Sure, it was tight, but I had clearance, and a borgeson box is smaller, so TTI has more breathing/error room.

I don't mind denting headers to clear minimal interference. I mind denting headers in half trying to clear the very box they are designed to fit.

Also, thanks for calling my build a mess. I take offense to that.

I built my car to road race. The factory suspension is great for road racing, and has great geometry. I chose factory suspension for this reason- because it is superior to any aftermarket coil over conversion for my purposes. My build does everything I want, and it does it well.

At the end of the day, I greatly respect your show car build. I ask that you would at a minimum not insult everyone else's , as everyone has a different set of priorities on their build.

One last thing: mine doesn't rattle or vibrate, even when passing half my run group on the road course (miatas, bmw's, mustangs, wrx, and grand sport corvette).
 
Oh and I can promise that my install will be plenty clean once the headers are either dented or fixed.
 
With respect to the OP, (I believe he got the answers he was looking for) I do not wish to get involved in any drama here. But to clarify, my remarks regard no one in particular, but ALL of us who think we're going to actually get good fitting components for modifying all these old cars. There's way too many variables for them to be able to satisfy everyone. I'm amazed (and grateful) they continue to try.

Uhcoog1, I don't have the slightest clue how you can twist around what I posted and get all offended and say I called your build a mess. My build is not a "show car" as you interpreted, but I won't be thrashing it on a road race course, so I'm probably a little more concerned about having to dent tubes, etc to make it all fit.

I hated having to do that type of thing when I was young but I had no choice because I had not yet acquired the skills or the equipment to build stuff myself. I refuse to do that on what will be the last car I build. I just want a super clean finished result. Neither of us are wrong for how we're building our cars. Nice Duster by the way. Especially love the perfect stance and the cool injection.

Uhcoog1 said:
Couple things you said bothered me.

You say I'm expecting too much from TTI. No, I expect a 'better' product than what a first time header builder can do. You see, I built a set of headers for my 5.7 heads. And they fit AROUND THE FACTORY POWER STEERING BOX. Sure, it was tight, but I had clearance, and a borgeson box is smaller, so TTI has more breathing/error room.

I don't mind denting headers to clear minimal interference. I mind denting headers in half trying to clear the very box they are designed to fit.

Also, thanks for calling my build a mess. I take offense to that.

I built my car to road race. The factory suspension is great for road racing, and has great geometry. I chose factory suspension for this reason- because it is superior to any aftermarket coil over conversion for my purposes. My build does everything I want, and it does it well.

At the end of the day, I greatly respect your show car build. I ask that you would at a minimum not insult everyone else's , as everyone has a different set of priorities on their build.

One last thing: mine doesn't rattle or vibrate, even when passing half my run group on the road course (miatas, bmw's, mustangs, wrx, and grand sport corvette).
Click to expand...
 
I am so tired factory tolerance cop out excuse every time something doesn't fit right. True, the factory had some wide tolerances, but have you EVER seen a k frame the didn't fit, a used body panel or piece of used glass that didn't fit? I haven't. This is no different. TTI is controlling a lot of the variables by selling the mounts too. I understand the reason for aftermarket suspension systems, but for these builds I don't believe it's the correct choice. It is possible to build a set of headers that actually fits, it's just that TTI hasn't chosen to do so in this case. Just my opinion here. It's frustrating because I'd like to sell these headers with confidence, but I will not.
 
GMachine,

You make an excellent point. I think it is most ironic that TTI which has one of the best reputation for headers for mopars can't seem to get their stuff together on the Hemi swap stuff.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
redlinegw said:
I am considering installing a 6.1 Hemi into my Plymouth Valiant and I have the new Borgeson steering box, has anyone fit one in with this setup yet?

Click to expand...

Nice Valiant. Except for color and roll bar, probably much like I intend on building next year. Love the Valiants.
 
Yes. Will put it in this weekend with new motor. Will get lots of pics!
 
UPDATE:
I put the new TTI drivers side header in. It fits MUCH better!

The new jig header has improved #1 routing. It kicks further forward before turning back. This helps it clear the Borgeson box in my car.

First Driver's side header: motor was sitting on the header on the Borgeson box. Situation was improved with grinding on the box and denting the header significantly. Motor was still sitting on header/power steering box (wasn't seated fully in motor mount). Ran it like that for ~4,000 miles.

NEW JIG HEADER: Motor seated all the way in the motor mount on the first try. I still dinged the new header in a couple places, but it probably wasn't necessary.

For those of you looking to use the TTI headers specific for the Borgeson box, I say do it. Depending on your K frame, you might need to dent it in a few places, or it might drop right in. It is a very tight fit.

TTI also recommends elongating the mounting holes on the borgeson box to move it further towards the fender - I did not do this modification.

Notes on installing these headers in a 73+ k frame (spool mount A body): Drop the motor in place without the headers in the car (and without the steering shaft coming into the engine compartment). Next, put the borgeson box in place, but don't bolt it down. Lift the motor up a few inches (leave tranny attached to car), and work the headers in from underneath. Having the borgeson box loose will make the job a lot easier.

Big thanks to Peter Bergman of Bergman Auto Craft for getting the new drivers side header and big thanks to TTI for sending the newly jigged header.
 
Pics from test fit without gasket:

5BC02D5E-175C-446F-B1BF-B79F29A79CB6_zpsgy4w8lrb.jpg


#1 cylinder top bolt hole still doesn't line up:
5435466E-D5D1-46C5-A5B8-0DF36B906AED_zpsupz9jg07.jpg


Hard to see, but the header tube makes it around the box:
A6CB0D3A-0FE5-463C-A573-08F75DA9C0D8_zps1ngjgxdb.jpg


I trimmed this spot on the block, as well as a portion of the engine mount. Clearance was gained without a gasket. Not sure it was needed once the gasket went in, but I did it anyway. Note the header tube is sitting on the engine mount in this pic. Clearance was gained when a gasket went in.
8EE88C46-AD26-425A-A45A-08816BCCD09F_zpsbaijwkr9.jpg


If you haven't picked up on the underlying principle here:
There isn't much room for a header tube through here! After having made a set of headers, used the first jig headers, and now these, I think TTI put it in the #1 tube in the best possible place (mirrors the #1 tube on the set of shorties I made the first go-round).
 
Big thanks for the write up. Lots of details and pics make it clear what needs to be done.

Thanks again,

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top