Only runs 40 Degrees advanced

[mr65cuda]

My posts about variable reluctance pickup polarity are not valid. I found that the dual sync, and hyperspark are both hall effect distributors. OP is not aware. I found on the Holley Sniper forum a question about difference between dual sync vs hyperspark distributors. Dual sync has cam type sensor too, an indicator for #1 sync for sequential efi and direct fire cop without rotor. Dual Sync vs HyperSpark
The OP started with dual sync, broke that, then purchased hyperspark. I think problem lies in step up, of distributor, wiring, phasing rotor. The link above suggests nobody knows....

Kit yes I am aware of that I did not need a duel sync but that was all they had when I put the system on so when that got ruined I bought a hyper spark and change the settings in my hand held for that. And since I was still having problems I put in my trusty MSD pro billet and changed and the hand held the parameters for that. I now have it hooked up for no timing control with the MSD controlling all the timing and the six AL only gives the sniper a speed signal so it acts just like a carburetor and it seems to be spot on.
Also kit I think it was you that told me to set it up at 13° with the reluctor just passing the knob on the coil and I did that. And I get the same thing every time I set up for normal timing like 10 or 15° it cranks and cranks and never fires until I turn it off then I’ll get a spark And it will try to run backwards for a second and blows gas and **** all over my hood. Now If I set it to 40° advanced it starts up perfectly fast idle warms up slows down I can rev it up it will restart in two or three cranks but just doesn’t have any power because if you drop it in gear it will die. So you guys know I am trying your suggestions. I think you also suggested that the polarity was wrong from the pick up I have not switched those wires because they are all keyed to plug-in a certain way and they are still all plugged in like they was from the beginning. You know black to black and violet Violet but I could pop a pin out of one of the plugs and switch them just to see because that’s what it sounds like it’s doing.

 

[mr65cuda]

There was a thread about a 5.7 hemi that did this very thing. I mentioned it on pg 1. If key or pin sheared chain /gears would still line up. Wouldnt know unless cam and crank gears are both checked.but if im not mistaken it was checked.

Yes I pulled the timing cover and I pulled those gears off and check the keyways even put a chain tensioner in while I had It a part

 

[mr65cuda]

I would want to replace the components that were involved with the lock up, and in the chain of events that would include the cam and chain set.
On another note somewhere a cloyes set was mentioned. One with different key slots?

Yes I have thought about just throwing another Cam in there. But if I do that then I will probably change the whole set up get me a 410 crank and roller cam. So I am going to the Nats here in a couple weeks I will probably shop around for a good stroker kit or a 6.4 I’m on the fence about that. In the meantime I would like to get this one running so I could sell it just in case I want to buy a whole different motor

 

[mr65cuda]

When you were letting the Sniper control timing did you have distributor locked out and adjustable rotor that was set at 15 degrees on rotor? Did you change that back when you stopped Sniper from controlling timing?

When I was running timing control I had the hyper spark distributor in and it was set up per instructions for it and change parameters for it in my hand held

 

[512Stroker]

I saw in an earlier post that you finally told us that you are using a stock harmonic balancer.
If you look at the face of the balancer you will note that it is made up of two pieces the inner hub and the outer ring sandwiched between the two is a thin piece of rubber.
When your engine came to abrupt halt the hub stopped and the other ring keep turning.
The outer ring has the timing marks on it, hence your off 5 degrees.
Your balancer is now junk, get it off the engine before it causes more damage.
Purchase a quality one piece after market balancer with etched timing marks.
This will help your issue but IMO it wont solve it.
I think when your engine suddenly stopped while making weird sounds it caused internal damage that's going to require you to dig deep for answers
IMO this is not a simple ignition or fuel delivery problem.

 

[mr65cuda]

I spose, but if the OP had degreed the cam this would have shown up in quick order. There are likely HUNDREDS of articles and videos on the www about degreeing a cam, and an inexpensive kit from Summit or others is somewhere around 80-100 bucks. Degree wheel, dial indicator, and some hardware doo dads

Yes guys I know that degree the Cam is the very best way to put it in perfectly but thousands of us DYIs have put them in straight up as we call it and have done fine there has been a few failures I had one the timing gear was marked wrong I put it in 3 Teeth off. It ran like hell for 17 miles and then ate a valve. But back to the presence this Cam has been in for four years and ran fine so I don’t think it is initial set up problem. And I don’t think I can degree it while the motor is setting in the car if I have to pull this motor it will be a completely different set up anyway. So something happened when I bent that distributor shaft be it mechanical or something I’m missing in the ignition and I I appreciate all of your guys suggestions and I am trying to do them

 

[mr65cuda]

On your hand held what have you selected as in your ignition typehttps://documents.holley.com/199r11...vAtulklYm48CvHpNZ0IE9RwPmZJUmq0uyx8JaYkuJLY_E as you have been swapping to different distributors but are you changing your preferences on your hand held ? Page 38

Holleys instructions are really weak they are kind of a fly by the seat of your pants style. At first they said they MSD locked out would work with the sniper system. Then when you call Tech Because you can’t get it running. They say oh yeah that MSD won’t work very well you need to get another distributor like the $500 Dual Sync . As per your example on page 38 it shows options to pick but doesn’t tell you which one to use so you have a CD box and an MSD distributor which one do you pick it doesn’t say there and it doesn’t show on page 20 where they show you kind of how to wire it up they don’t even show the distributor and they still don’t tell you what to pick for your system I had to call the tech line to find that out. Now I see they have added a video on YouTube that finally tells you what to pick. I struggled with this system for two years putting in a dual sync made a world of difference and after moving wires all over my engine bay for two years I finally thought I had it good enough to go on a trip the power tour. But this breakdown was not because of the so sniper system. The distributor cap came loose I was trying to work on it on the side of the road and dropped a spacer out of the cap into the distributor and locked up the distributor so not really the fault of the distributor or the Sniper system

 

[mr65cuda]

I saw in an earlier post that you finally told us that you are using a stock harmonic balancer.
If you look at the face of the balancer you will note that it is made up of two pieces the inner hub and the outer ring sandwiched between the two is a thin piece of rubber.
When your engine came to abrupt halt the hub stopped and the other ring keep turning.
The outer ring has the timing marks on it, hence your off 5 degrees.
Your balancer is now junk, get it off the engine before it causes more damage.
Purchase a quality one piece after market balancer with etched timing marks.
This will help your issue but IMO it wont solve it.
I think when your engine suddenly stopped while making weird sounds it caused internal damage that's going to require you to dig deep for answers
IMO this is not a simple ignition or fuel delivery problem.

I do agree with you it is off and I will put a SFI damper on it if I rebuild this motor. It wasn’t turning very fast it was just been cranked by the starter but it was enough to bend a distributor shaft so could very well be more internal damage. I would like to figure out where but time is running out. Couple weeks till the Nats then I will yank it and something will go back in there

 

[mr65cuda]

was the compression test good ?if so cam is not twisted you would have different reading because of late valve opening events. run a leak down test on engine to check for slightly bent valves. I DID PULL A FERD ENGINE THAT HAD A MISS ON LAST 2 CYLINDERS THE CAM SNAPED BUT RAN JUST FINE.

I thought about that but if it was snapped it wouldn’t be driving the distributor and I did a compression check and they were all good I had 155 on seven of them and 160 on one

 

[mr65cuda]

LISTEN TO THIS GUY

Things you MUST DO (and have not) from the sounds of it..........

1....Check timing mark accuracy (TDC) with a piston stop

2....Check cam timing preferably with a degree wheel. IF YOU are using "dot to dot" be damn careful you aren't off a bit (easy with parallax) or that you have a multi key sprocket (they are not "gears") and that you are using the wrong marks

3....Bring engine up to the timing marks on compression stroke. There are only two ways that are practical. One is stick your finger in no 1 plug hole, bump the engine and feel for compression. Now wrench the engine that last part of a turn and put the timing marks WHERE YOU WANT THE TIMING that is about 15 BTC.

The second way is if you have either rocker cover off, rotate the engine until the marks on on TDC. Now determine if no1 or no6 valves are both closed. Whichever cylinder has both valves closed IS THE ONE which will fire. If no 6 rotate the engine 1 full turn so the marks are back up, and that will be no1 ready to fire

4...Now drop in the dist. Where the rotor points is not important, put the body of the dist so the vacuum can has rotational clearance from the manifold and firewall. Rotate the dist. body CW (retard). Slowly rotate back advance (CCW) until the points open or until the reluctor is in the middle of the pickup coil. YOU CAN CHECK TIMING ON THE STARTER with a timing light. "I'd go" for about 10-15* on a mild 340 type cam, more if a "hot" cam

With the timing marks "up" on the no1 compression stroke, plug the no 1 wire in wherever the rotor is "just coming to" going CW and feed in the rest of the wires

5....START IT UP

Now I have done some of these things I have let it blow my finger off of number one I don’t know how many times. I had the valve cover off of the number one head and checked at TDC both valves were closed I have set the reluctor and the number one and set them at 13° before top dead center I did not degree this Cam and I couldn’t degree it now with it in the car. But this cam has been in the car for about four years a few thousand miles and has run great until I locked up the distributor

 

[512Stroker]

I do agree with you it is off and I will put a SFI damper on it if I rebuild this motor. It wasn’t turning very fast it was just been cranked by the starter but it was enough to bend a distributor shaft so could very well be more internal damage. I would like to figure out where but time is running out. Couple weeks till the Nats then I will yank it and something will go back in there

Just so you understand that there is a possibility that you may break the crank if you continue to run it with the balancer out of phase.

 

[yellow rose]

Just so you understand that there is a possibility that you may break the crank if you continue to run it with the balancer out of phase.

Yep. That thing is JUNK. I wouldn't start the engine again with that turd on there. It is effectively non functioning. It is now a full blown crank breaker.

 

[Jadaharabi]

Just so you understand that there is a possibility that you may break the crank if you continue to run it with the balancer out of phase.

Many balancers have slipped and the engines are still running.
How about the outer ring on the balancer is neutal balanced with a mark for the timing. So if it slips it changes the timing mark position not the balance.

 

[512Stroker]

Many balancers have slipped and the engines are still running.
How about the outer ring on the balancer is neutal balanced with a mark for the timing. So if it slips it changes the timing mark position not the balance.

The timing marks change, correct.
I once saw a small block, cast crank, break in two directly behind the factory stock balancer.
When the engine was rebuilt the fool put the stock balancer back on, but couldn't get the engine to run because the timing makes were incorrect.
Would not have believed it if I had not seen it with my own eyes.
Let the OP ship you the balancer and you can test it for us on one of your engines. LOL

 

[yellow rose]

Many balancers have slipped and the engines are still running.
How about the outer ring on the balancer is neutal balanced with a mark for the timing. So if it slips it changes the timing mark position not the balance.

Only if you are lucky. Once the outer ring is unbounded from the inner it's junk and doesn't work.

That's why I NEVER EVER buy a damper like that. They start to lose effectiveness almost immediately as the rubber changes durometer and starts to break down.

It's a crank breaker. I hope the OP is lucky. Some guys run junk and get away with it.

 

[Jadaharabi]

The timing marks change, correct.
I once saw a small block, cast crank, break in two directly behind the factory stock balancer.
When the engine was rebuilt the foul put the stock balancer back on, but couldn't get the engine to run because the timing makes were incorrect.
Would not have believed it if I had not seen it with my own eyes.
Let the OP ship you the balancer and you can test it for us on one of your engines. LOL

I understand that once the bonding lets go and the ring slips it is junk.
I was Not talking about that. I was saying IF the outer ring is neural balanced and slips it is only changing the position of the timing mark.
Read what I write not what you think I wrote. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[RustyRatRod]

The timing marks change, correct.
I once saw a small block, cast crank, break in two directly behind the factory stock balancer.
When the engine was rebuilt the foul put the stock balancer back on, but couldn't get the engine to run because the timing makes were incorrect.
Would not have believed it if I had not seen it with my own eyes.
Let the OP ship you the balancer and you can test it for us on one of your engines. LOL

Yeah cause the OP sure as hell ain't gonna do it.

 

[512Stroker]

I understand that once the bonding lets go and the ring slips it is junk.
I was Not talking about that. I was saying IF the outer ring is neural balanced and slips it is only changing the position of the timing mark.
Read what I write not what you think I wrote. Don't put words in my mouth.

Slow down there partner.
I did read your post and it left the impression that it was OK to keep running the balancer that is now junk. Sorry but IMO that ain't right.
There is only one place where that balancer belongs and that's in the scrap barrel.
Engines are $ expensive a new balancer is relatively cheap in the overall picture.

 

[yellow rose]

I understand that once the bonding lets go and the ring slips it is junk.
I was Not talking about that. I was saying IF the outer ring is neural balanced and slips it is only changing the position of the timing mark.
Read what I write not what you think I wrote. Don't put words in my mouth.

This is true. But the fact remains it no longer functions as a damper.

 

[Jadaharabi]

Slow down there partner.
I did read your post and it left the impression that it was OK to keep running the balancer that is now junk. Sorry but IMO that ain't right.
There is only one place where that balancer belongs and that's in the scrap barrel.
Engines are $ expensive a new balancer is relatively cheap in the overall picture.

Once agin your putting words in my mouth.
The point I'm making is Even with a slipped balancer the engine could still run in a balanced condtion. Not that the balancer is junk which it is. Personally I would bust it with a hammer then scrap it.

 

[512Stroker]

Once agin your putting words in my mouth.
The point I'm making is Even with a slipped balancer the engine could still run in a balanced condtion. Not that the balancer is junk which it is. Personally I would bust it with a hammer then scrap it.

I am not going to get in a pissing match.
The OP needs to replace the damper/balancer.
Again, IMO he has other issues, the balancer is just one.

 

[KitCarlson]

Have you done it like this?

 

[mr65cuda]

Have you done it like this?

Yes many times with two different hyper spark distributors. The plastic cap works and it is the easiest one of the Holley distributors to set up but the motor still had the same reaction to it so I am thinking about tearing apart this motor I feel like it’s somehow related to the Cam I cannot figure out how the cam could be hurt with all the other things being good. but I’m tired of it. so besides the damper being junk I’m going to tear it apart. The bumber will be when I tear it all apart and I can’t find anything wrong with it that will be hard to swallow. I am going to the Nats in a couple weeks and I will be looking at stroker kits there and talking to builders I will be selling parts in the swap meet area also

 

[Coronet 500]

Before disassembly I would set this up like it’s on an engine stand, get a points distributor and any carb and try and start, run it.

I know you put in a stock distributor and wouldn’t spark when put in the block which is odd but I’ve got my trusty BBS and single point that will start anything that’s not broken.

 

[mbaird]

I have been trying to sort out a tuning issue lately and doing a lot of dist recurving.

Yesterday I installed a distributor and when I checked the timing it was at 40*. ! But running ! I immediately thought of this thread...
1st thing I did was to flip the rotor 180*....no go.
Next thing was to disconnect/reconnect my timing light. Bingo!
My timing light start displaying the wrong rpms from time to time and I have to pull the plug and reconnect it. Like resetting it.

Time for a new Dial Back Light. Or just use one of my other oldies..