Opinions on windage screen

[James Clews]

Yes but what I want to know is if I take my clothes off at my next drag race will my car go faster?

 

[gregcon]

You're confusing yourself with all of the analogies. The bottom line is horsepower is measured at the crank flange. If it doesn't make it to that point, you didn't make it. Everything that happens upstream is considered 'losses'. You have to draw the line somewhere, and those SAE folks draw it at the crank flange.

Otherwise, we could measure the amount of gasoline being burned, equate that to horsepower, and claim everything not coming out of the crank is real horsepower that we just aren't letting get out. Your average 300HP engine? It's really making 1200HP, but you're wasting a lot of it in exhaust heat and friction.

The Japanese electric motor makers are very sneaky this way...they measure efficiency by JIC standards, and their published motor data shows very high efficiency. The problem is, JIC standards don't include a lot of losses that the rest of the world does, so their numbers are artificially inflated and their motors are actually no better.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

You're confusing yourself with all of the analogies. The bottom line is horsepower is measured at the crank flange. If it doesn't make it to that point, you didn't make it. Everything that happens upstream is considered 'losses'. You have to draw the line somewhere, and those SAE folks draw it at the crank flange.

Otherwise, we could measure the amount of gasoline being burned, equate that to horsepower, and claim everything not coming out of the crank is real horsepower that we just aren't letting get out. Your average 300HP engine? It's really making 1200HP, but you're wasting a lot of it in exhaust heat and friction.

The Japanese electric motor makers are very sneaky this way...they measure efficiency by JIC standards, and their published motor data shows very high efficiency. The problem is, JIC standards don't include a lot of losses that the rest of the world does, so their numbers are artificially inflated and their motors are actually no better.

That's what it is for you...
BUT power isn't exclusively measured at the crank flange. I'm not confusing anything, just agree to disagree and move on. If you can't tell the difference between a power adder and a drag loss... theres nothing I can do for you. It was shared, it wasn't accepted well and now it's been kicked back n forth to avail.. so now it's really a dumb argument.
Drag is drag, wether it be a crankshaft swimming through oil, a locked up caliper, or a ford 9" vs an 8 1/4 reflected in et's
Have the last word if you need , it won't change the laws of physics or common sense. When you remove oil, parasitic drag, you are freeing up power.

 

[rumblefish360]

doesn't correlate , he still pays for it.
The oil drag is robbing existing power. Period.

The thread has a couple hung up.

Some things DO add power/make power...others are just removing whats in the way. Lighten the car, make a spoiler, wear speedos...lmao.. too stuck up on a habit of saying it makes more power, by god , get over it. Too simple and yet so unacceptable by a couple that all they wanna do is keep trying to prove it wrong.

So.. when you run with a tailwind and go faster at the track, do you likewise claim you're making more power? lol @ the both of you. Unreal.

Hey! hey... since I’m disagreeing with you, you must be saying it is me, I gave up on trying to explain where your wrong but you want to be thick headed and insist your right. Your blinders are on and the proof is your own argument base which conflicts with known studies and straight forward wordings and teachings. Your blinded by your sights set on being correct.

Id like to know how you are correct when the world at large, by far and large teach it the other way around.
How is it you are smarter and Han the professors & engineers?
Where did you get your engineering degree?
When did you get it?
I’d also like to know where you placed I your class?

Im being serious! How do you know more or better than these people?

Gregcon is dead on. You are confusing (know it or not,) analogies. Or is it your purposely twisting words to instigate an argument?

Tour swimmer analogy doesn’t hold water. (Pun or no pun) since the swimmer is exerting maximum effort. As a person. The person is trying for max performance. There at the there max. Anything that stops them from going faster is an inhibitor.

It’s the same thing inside the crank case. But this is a mechanical device. Not a human device. Since the mechanical aspect is inhibited removing that inhibitor will produce more horsepower. In the human case, removing the inhibitor just simply allows them forward momentum or motion due to the inhibitory being removed. With the swimmer analogy, it’s the same as lightning of the car.
I can make a case that the person did increase in HP if you would like?

Now to fact check the upper learning Institutions. No apology necessary for the schooling session. From here, please leave me out of this.

I truly am not interested in teaching this subject anymore. This was part of my career, and I’m retiring!

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

Just curious to hear some opinions on this set up. Motor is a 3.58 stroke 360 that turns 7000 on gear change and 7200 or so out the back. Can't go wrong with the crank scraper IMO, but the windage screen is debatable. The screen should keep the crank from pulling the oil up out of the sump (Moroso deep pan). I cut off the lower skirt on the passenger side thinking the up stroke scraper will be more effective. Also thinking about folding a lip towards the crank on the driver side to make kind of another scraper.

View attachment 1715587979 View attachment 1715587994

Spray oil through a screen. Maybe the separation is helping the reunion to the pool in the sump. Let us know, looks cool.

 

[gregcon]

Drag is drag, but as I said, the line has to be drawn someplace. And it is the crank flange. That's why standards exist...to put a stop to the BS and guessing. When you remove internal drag, it may well result in added crank HP. But as long as that 'power' is wasted inside the engine, it doesn't qualify as HP.

Helping Jack off a horse are the same words as helping jack off a horse. The capital letter? That's the crank flange.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

Something about the milodon that the stock tray cant do...is keep the parts scatter from blowing out the pan.

This is the tray from my 410 I had notched and closely spaced with double lock nuts below to set the height.

 

[dirty white boy]

if a motor makes 400 hp without a tray,..and you pull it off dyno,..install a tray,..put back on dyno and it makes 410 hp,..it made 10 more hp! dont matter if the 10 hp was free'd up! it Made 10 more hp!!

 

[Jadaharabi]

if a motor makes 400 hp without a tray,..and you pull it off dyno,..install a tray,..put back on dyno and it makes 410 hp,..it made 10 more hp! dont matter if the 10 hp was free'd up! it Made 10 more hp!!

If you take your 400 horsepower motor and replace all the bearings with coated bearings and coat the Piston skirts and coat the top of the Pistons. And it makes 410 horsepower it's because you have freed up the engine so that it doesn't take as much power to make the 400 horsepower. Same with adding the windage tray or moving the oil lower in the pan you haven't made any more horsepower than you had before you are just now having access to it because the engine itself is not using it to help turn itself at the crankshaft.
And add low tension rings to that equation also. You made 400 horsepower with standard rings in it and you put in low tension rings and now it makes 410 horsepower. It wasn't because the Rings are making more horsepower it's because there's less friction in the engine so it doesn't take as much power to make 410 horsepower.

Sometimes you guys amaze me.

 

[raymond]

Here's a few mods I did to my factory tray, hard to know if it was a benefit, stock stroke 360 turning to 6800.

 

[dirty white boy]

freeing up drag,... makes more hp! you can say it, word it how ever but in the end, its more hp! not same hp with less drag...dont get lost in the words in a nuts n bolts world! but i sware, some yall would argue with a stop sign..lolol!

 

[gregcon]

I agree, it's not that important in the end. But it has some importance as it usually helps to understand the proper way to look at things...because then you are best able to work them in your favor. The other nice thing about reducing drag is, much like losing weight, you are increasing the efficiency of the vehicle rather than just pouring more air/fuel into it.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

freeing up drag,... makes more hp! you can say it, word it how ever but in the end, its more hp! not same hp with less drag...dont get lost in the words in a nuts n bolts world! but i sware, some yall would argue with a stop sign..lolol!

I know.... you came into this thread with your only post was to rebut mine. Crazy huh ;)

There is freeing up power and then there is building.
Man... some of you just hate the choice of wording with a passion huh. Lmao. Building power, tuning power, freeing drag. All equate to more power at the flywheel...till the heavy 9" and slipping tranny eat it up...now you fixed that. Yell from tree tops how you make more power.
I love finding more power in an otherwise untouched motor by tuning and uncorking it on both ends of the breath without changing one internal part.

Oops..I did it again, I said 'finding' lol triggered!
It's so not a big deal, you come back to have the last word.
Tag.

 

[Mattax]

I know.... you came into this thread with your only post was to rebut mine. Crazy huh ;)

There is freeing up power and then there is building.
Man... some of you just hate the choice of wording with a passion huh. Lmao. Building power, tuning power, freeing drag. All equate to more power at the flywheel...till the heavy 9" and slipping tranny eat it up...now you fixed that. Yell from tree tops how you make more power.
I love finding more power in an otherwise untouched motor by tuning and uncorking it on both ends of the breath without changing one internal part.

Oops..I did it again, I said 'finding' lol triggered!
It's so not a big deal, you come back to have the last word.
Tag.

And you should keep writing it that way, because that's how you think about it.
Sometimes an approach is way above the way most people think and is inappropriate in normal conversation. But this is not one of those situations.
Everyone here understands what was said, even if some don't fully get the difference in thinking.
The most valuable concept I got from Bruce Shrinker Robertson was the advantage of thinking about the engine from a combustion point of view. Can I always do it - heck no! But I could see the power of the thinking, and slowly and painfully learned to apply it when I can.

 

[yellow rose]

And you should keep writing it that way, because that's how you think about it.
Sometimes an approach is way above the way most people think and is inappropriate in normal conversation. But this is not one of those situations.
Everyone here understands what was said, even if some don't fully get the difference in thinking.
The most valuable concept I got from Bruce Shrinker Robertson was the advantage of thinking about the engine from a combustion point of view. Can I always do it - heck no! But I could see the power of the thinking, and slowly and painfully learned to apply it when I can.

RIP Shrinker. A man of true genius.

 

[dirty white boy]

I know.... you came into this thread with your only post was to rebut mine. Crazy huh ;)

There is freeing up power and then there is building.
Man... some of you just hate the choice of wording with a passion huh. Lmao. Building power, tuning power, freeing drag. All equate to more power at the flywheel...till the heavy 9" and slipping tranny eat it up...now you fixed that. Yell from tree tops how you make more power.
I love finding more power in an otherwise untouched motor by tuning and uncorking it on both ends of the breath without changing one internal part.

Oops..I did it again, I said 'finding' lol triggered!
It's so not a big deal, you come back to have the last word.
Tag.

ant rebutting you, or any one else on here! my point is only difference in the point of views on this thread is the wording! hell ill call my sister tomorrow,..shes a collage english teacher, see how it should properly be worded, damn stop sign catching hell today!