PCM options

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Kiddart1

Kiddart1

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I am in the works doing a 6.4 into my 72 demon. I have a 5.7 in my dart sport and run the MSgold box.

my question is what you guys are running and why. what benefits caused the choice you made.
i think there are only 3 options but i want this to be as seamless as possible.
 
Sorry to go off track. But how do you like the gold box? I just bought a used one with harness for $650. Going to use it on my stroked 6.1 to control spark only. HHP I think it was has came out with a system thst also set up for spark only. It's around $850 I think . But to me it looks like the EFI microsqurt.
 
I've got an MS3X running my 5.7 in my 67 Dart currently.

For the long story, I originally swapped the engine into the car with a carb and an MSD box because I was in college and didn't have the money to buy a nice fuel tank with a built in pump (this was 10+ years ago). I also bought the engine with zero electronics other than the sensors that were still mounted, so no harness or PCM to start with. Sold the factory intake to a guy and was just chatting about possibly going back to EFI some day with him when he picked it up and he mentioned he knew someone taking an MS setup off a 340. Called the guy and worked out a screaming deal for a "fuel inject a small block Mopar in a box" kit. Ended up with a 4bbl throttle body, intake, fuel rails, injectors, pump, O2 sensor and controller, MS2, wiring, relay box, etc. Sold off all the stuff I didn't need for the Hemi and think it cost me $200 in the long run for a full MS2 setup. I kept the MSD and ran the MS as a fuel only setup for several years until I decided I wanted to have all the tuning in one place and better control of the ignition. Got the parts for Christmas to upgrade to an MS3X and have really enjoyed the extra functionality it gave me.

Short version of the story is I love tinkering and the open source nature of the Megasquirt line. Pretty much everything I did on the car I did in steps as I learned how it all worked. Began with a fuel only EFI system running off the tach signal from the MSD to a near OEM style setup with table switching, sequential injection, wideband O2 feedback, closed loop idle control, traction control, A/C control (once I actually put A/C in the car), alternator control, several extra gauges for datalogging, etc. Pretty much if I want to do something with the car, there is a way to do it with the MS if I want to.

I was eyeing the Megasquirt system from the start and just happened to find a great deal on one, but I also had a lot less options back when I did the swap. The other option I was looking at back then was a FAST system. They were better known for their TBI kits, but they actually sold a kit that would connect to a factory manifold and 8 injectors instead of their throttle body setup. I almost never saw anyone use or even mention that kit, but it seemed like a nice setup. I think the Holley kits have largely taken over that market though, and are incredibly feature rich nowadays from what I can tell. I think you pay a premium for that though. With the MS I could add features as I went and spread the cost a little more than one big initial hit. I'm guessing a factory PCM would probably give you some of the nicest driveability, but at the cost of having limited modification potential. I know you can tune them, but they are ultimately still a pretty fixed system. I can run an MS as a MAF setup, speed density, alpha-n, etc. at the flip of a setting, so it would adapt to pretty much any mod you'd ever want to do with the car. You don't have to play games and trick the computer into thinking it's doing one thing when you want it to do another (like adding boost to a computer that isn't built for it). The MS lineup has gotten way more professional in the later years as well with nice enclosures and real sealed connectors, but I think they are also going up in price to match, so maybe not as much of a deal as they used to be. I guess that all depends on how much you're willing to tinker though. I've debated more than once about ripping my setup out and moving to one of the modern enclosed units that could mount in the engine bay to clean up my wiring, but I don't think the cost justifies it for me yet.
 
I am going with an NGC. I want CC at some point and at the time I was deciding it seemed like the best option was the OEM controller. I don't think any of the aftermarket controllers can do CC, but there are now CC DBW kits that can control the throttle. The later GPEC2A controller has some headaches with the start signal so I decided to just stick to the earlier NGC controller.

I think another advantage to the MS stuff is the option to do traction control and (I think) no lift shifts. The Terminator X can't do either (I don't think).

My plans have expanded some since I was going to need a speed signal for CC so I am planning to do a 4 channel ABS setup. Not sure if I will try and do traction/stability control though. Either way, the road is still long and harrowing to get to that point.

But I will be paying for tuning at some point, so there is that. And I don't plan for a big engine build at this point either.
 
DionR said:
I am going with an NGC. I want CC at some point and at the time I was deciding it seemed like the best option was the OEM controller. I don't think any of the aftermarket controllers can do CC, but there are now CC DBW kits that can control the throttle. The later GPEC2A controller has some headaches with the start signal so I decided to just stick to the earlier NGC controller.

I think another advantage to the MS stuff is the option to do traction control and (I think) no lift shifts. The Terminator X can't do either (I don't think).

My plans have expanded some since I was going to need a speed signal for CC so I am planning to do a 4 channel ABS setup. Not sure if I will try and do traction/stability control though. Either way, the road is still long and harrowing to get to that point.

But I will be paying for tuning at some point, so there is that. And I don't plan for a big engine build at this point either.
Click to expand...

I know the MS now has "unofficial" DBW support. By that I mean that it technically offers it, but has lots of disclaimers everywhere saying it's experimental and not to be used as a primary control. That doesn't fix the CC issue though. I have been trying to add CC to my car via my own programming and tinkering for a while now, but have yet to come up with a satisfactory solution. I have a carb style throttle body though, so mechanical control makes that a little easier to develop at home (actually it would probably be easier to control a DBW throttle body if I could figure out how to control it, adding a servo to pull the throttle linkage has been one of the bigger headaches). I just can't come up with a control system that works well with my car yet. I put one on my old 71 Vette back in college for a project and it actually worked okay despite being very rudimentary in coding (basically if it was slower than set speed, add one "step" of throttle and check again in a second or something like that, if it was slow do the opposite). Had a lot of oscillation getting to the set speed, but held it okay once it was there. It's an automatic with less horsepower though, so the transmission "soaked up" a lot of the throttle response. I might go after it again one of these days, but I need to have more robust code with failsafes in it.

And yes, the MS can do no lift shift. I have it set up on my car with "launch control" as well (basically just a two step, nothing fancy) via a potentiometer on the clutch. The pot lets me tune the release point better than a physical switch. And I don't think the MS really has any stability control yet either. I know they make full aftermarket systems for that, but I think you need an ABS pump to get there.
 
Mopar65, we like the gold box now that we have tinkered with it more and more. at first it was very overwhelming. the car really reacts to changes good or bad directions. its set up for drag racing but can also be set to cruise the streets with a few keystrokes. my son is learning all this and i am getting what i can while he is learning.
next we are adding a flex fuel sensor to run E-85 so that will be a big plus.

i was on the EFI source website today and noticed they have a MS3 Lite for the gen 3 early model and late model. it seems to have a lot of the big features of the MS3 Gold just smaller package. they are also offering an efi dash (5", 7" or 10") that can be used with either Gold or lite boxes.

i think i got all the info i need but now need to see exactly what features i can live without. Cruise control is a not an option, or i should say don't want it on my demon. traction control might be nice but not a deal breaker. here are the links and now that i can get a digital dash as a package i might go this direction.

MS3 Gold Lite for G3 Hemi Plug and Play System – EFI Source

https://www.efisource.com/wp/shop/nexgenefi-pro-edition-slim-digital-display/


Map63Vett, my first rendition was with the Fast TB efi and the MSD hemi6 box that was stupid simple but then I wanted everything in one control box so i went with the MS3 Gold.

if there are any other ideas let me hear them.
 
Kiddart1 said:
Mopar65, we like the gold box now that we have tinkered with it more and more. at first it was very overwhelming. the car really reacts to changes good or bad directions. its set up for drag racing but can also be set to cruise the streets with a few keystrokes. my son is learning all this and i am getting what i can while he is learning.
next we are adding a flex fuel sensor to run E-85 so that will be a big plus.

i was on the EFI source website today and noticed they have a MS3 Lite for the gen 3 early model and late model. it seems to have a lot of the big features of the MS3 Gold just smaller package. they are also offering an efi dash (5", 7" or 10") that can be used with either Gold or lite boxes.

i think i got all the info i need but now need to see exactly what features i can live without. Cruise control is a not an option, or i should say don't want it on my demon. traction control might be nice but not a deal breaker. here are the links and now that i can get a digital dash as a package i might go this direction.

MS3 Gold Lite for G3 Hemi Plug and Play System – EFI Source

NexGenEFI Pro Edition Slim Digital Display – EFI Source


Map63Vett, my first rendition was with the Fast TB efi and the MSD hemi6 box that was stupid simple but then I wanted everything in one control box so i went with the MS3 Gold.

if there are any other ideas let me hear them.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info..MS3 said I could use the gold box to control spark only
I even bought the wiring harness for just the coils. Hooking it up looks easy. Adding on the tuning settings is what's got me worried . Lol I have never used something like it. Guess i am going to have to email MS3 and ask them. Mine is going to be race only. I was going to buy the MSD Hemi 6 but with the wiring harness it's around $1100. Also I was wrong its MMX that is selling a spark only set up for the gen3 hemi. Just have to hook up 3 wires and your engine is running
But it looks like a MS3 set up to me
It even uses the Tuner studio program. But looks like a nice set up

Gen3 HEMI Carburetor Ignition Control System by MMX and EFI Source

Gen3 HEMI Carburetor Ignition Control System by MMX and EFI Source
www.modernmusclextreme.com www.modernmusclextreme.com
 
If you ask around some will send you screen shots of tunes that you can add into your graphs for to start on a tune and go from there. I might even be able to have my son send you the base tune we have in the dart for everyday driving, and you can tweak from there. when you are ready for that send me a PM off to the side and we can get that for you.
 
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